Barry OGrady wrote in
:

On Thu, 06 May 2004 22:12:59 GMT, "Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this
mindspring.com wrote:


"Barry OGrady" wrote in message
. ..
On 06 May 2004 04:03:56 GMT, (Lloyd Davies - The
Time Lord ) wrote:

I think that since Morse Code is old, but not completely useless, I
feel it should no longer be made to be learned to gain access to the
HF bands.

It's not! I have full access to all HF amateur bands without a lick
of morse.


-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.

Must be a Frenchman, Belgium, or a Kraut.

No. I'm a whining aussie.

All a bunch of whinning losers.

We are losers of the morse requirement.

That's the best sort of loser to be


Dan/W4NTI


-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.

(N2EY) wrote in
om:

Alun wrote in message
.. .
(Lloyd Davies - The Time Lord ) wrote in
:

I think that since Morse Code is old, but not completely useless, I
feel it should no longer be made to be learned to gain access to the
HF bands.

Do I feel that Amateur Radio be made a free for all? No, it should
not. There should be a test, but not a really hard test, but not a
easy one either.

I'll even admit, I'll never get a new Icom 7800, at $10,000.00 -
I'll be lucky to maybe get a used 706 at about 400 or 500 or so.


Lloyd Davies - Time Lord and Talk show host
"On the Domestic Front"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/domesticfront/


The ITU requirement for a code test was dropped on July 5th, 2003, so
evidently a majority around the world agree with you.

A majority of the world's governments that bothered to attend and vote
on the issue.

And all they did was change the rules so each country can decide for
itself what is required - just like the written test.

Although a suggested standard for written tests was added at the same
WRC, it's really more of a suggestion than anything else. Countries
can have wide-ranging interpretations of what's "needed". For example,
do you think ol' JY1 and his family had to sit for written and code
exams that were equivalent to what US or UK hams had to pass for the
same privileges? Or do you think the US writtens compare with, say,
those in the UK?

If I'm not mistaken, getting a license in some countries *requires*
successful completion of an approved training course. (I know the
"Foundation" license has this requirement). Doesn't matter if someone
is a Ph.D. in EE, they have to attend and pass the ham radio classes
to get the license - even though such courses are not part of any
treaty and not required in many other countries.

Actually, they only have to do the practical assesments, it's not necessary
to attend the course.


Imagine the reaction here in the USA if the code test were dropped
*and* getting a license required attendance at an approved ham radio
training course. Not a "one day wonder" course such as was recently
the subject of an article on the ARRL website ("Is Your License Class
Efficient" or some such title), but rather a multisession course with
quizzes and a final test that were not from a published pool.

Point is, just because it's not in the treaty anymore doesn't mean all
countries will or should drop it.

I think the FCC will drop it, but they move at a snail's pace.

They're busy with other things. And perhaps they don't see what all
the fuss is about. After all, we're talking about a 5 wpm code test
that can be passed in a number of ways, with all sorts of adaptations
and accomodations (tone, volume, headphones, typewriter, flashing
light, Farnsworth, etc.) Add to this the fact that today there are
training aids undreamed of in the past - most of them free or quite
inexpensive.


I doubt if they even think about any of that

I didn't think it would survive
for as long as a year after it was no longer needed, but it's only
nine months so far, so I could still be right.

I think you meant 'no longer required by treaty'. Whether something is
needed as a license requirement is purely a matter of opinion.


I meant both, since I agree with the FCC that it was only needed because of
the treaty

It's been ten months and two days since WRC-2003 ended, and given
FCC's method of handling the issue it may well be another ten months
before we even get to the NPRM stage.


That may be, although I still think it will be earlier than that. How do we
stand with the pool, BTW?

Most of all, note that the 2000 restructuring did not result in lots
of new hams, even though the requirements for all classes of license
were lowered and the whole structure simplified.

73 de Jim, N2EY


I think abolishing the code test will remove a block in the system, but
won't have much effect unless we actively do something to recruit new hams.
I don't really see much of that happening right now.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 9:30 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

That would be me. Not just tapes, in fact I didn't find tapes to be a good
method of learning, but I've never attached a key to a rig. What was the
point of me learning 20wpm?

Uhhhhhhhhhh....passing Element 1C...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 9:38 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Brian Kelly) wrote in
om:

I had no particular interest in the topics covered by probably half
the courses I had to pass to get a degree. But I did pass 'em
(grousing all the way) and the priveleges flowed. The philosophy
behind volume of work invested in learning = volume of privs goes back
at least to the guilds of the early Renaissance.


You would have thought we would have learnt since then, rather than aping
the practices of hundreds of years ago.

Nope.

You can refer to almost any current career college degree program and
still find curricula loaded with irrelevant and inconsequential "fluff"
courses, no doubt "mandated" for the purpose of keeping the paying student
paying.

What's your point?

My point is that we need to recruit people into the hobby.

If one reflects back on the history and demograpics of the Amateur Radio
Service, there have been those who obtained licensure for a myriad of reasons,
but those who really get in it and stick with it have recurring central
interests...Two types come to mind. First are those who are facinated by radio
for radio's sake...Gadgets.

The other are those who see Amateur Radio as a further means to an
end...public service, emergency services, etc.

Then there are always those "others", ie: husband-wife licensee's who just
want a cheap honey-do connection and nothing else.

Most of the "active" folks are the gadget operators and ES types, so let's
go to where they are rather than wait for them to find us..."Popular Science"
and "Popular Mechanics" magazine..."Journal of Emergency Medical Services",
"Emergency Medical Services", etc etc etc.

I never understood why we put the number of "basic" licensing course ads
we do in Amateur Radio magazines...Most folks who read them are ALREADY
licensed!

Ham radio license tests should be reduced to
passing a test on mouse operations in order for ham radio to compete
with the Internet? Passing a one-button mouse test garners a Tech
ticket, two gets a General and two plus a scroller wheel gets the
examinee an Extra?

Where do you get that from? I don't think we should reduce theory standards
atall. I just think we need to abolish the code test.

Code test-schmode test...If you want to re-establish some validity of the
Amateur Radio Service's credibility as a breeding ground for technically
competent licensees, close the written test pools.

That will never happen, however, for one very prominent reason if no
other...Truth be known that MOST people would never get an Amateur license
because of the WRITTEN test...In it's raw form, it requires that the applicant
actually KNOW something. That requires REAL learning, not just rote
memorization, which is exactly what learning Morse Code is, and is exactly what
the written tests are now.

Element 1 only adds access to about 2.5% of all Amateur allocations.
Those that really wanted HF priviledges only saw the Code test as a
hurdle...Not a brick wall.

73

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 9:30 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

That would be me. Not just tapes, in fact I didn't find tapes to be a
good method of learning, but I've never attached a key to a rig. What
was the point of me learning 20wpm?

Uhhhhhhhhhh....passing Element 1C...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ











So let me rephrase that. Why should I have had to pass 1C to get the bottom
ends of the phone subbands? Actually, that's where the DX used to be, but
it seems to have moved up to avoid the 'hernia nets' that now seem to
occupy that spectrum.

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 9:38 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Brian Kelly) wrote in
. com:

I had no particular interest in the topics covered by probably half
the courses I had to pass to get a degree. But I did pass 'em
(grousing all the way) and the priveleges flowed. The philosophy
behind volume of work invested in learning = volume of privs goes
back at least to the guilds of the early Renaissance.


You would have thought we would have learnt since then, rather than
aping the practices of hundreds of years ago.

Nope.

You can refer to almost any current career college degree program
and
still find curricula loaded with irrelevant and inconsequential "fluff"
courses, no doubt "mandated" for the purpose of keeping the paying
student paying.

What's your point?

My point is that we need to recruit people into the hobby.

If one reflects back on the history and demograpics of the Amateur
Radio
Service, there have been those who obtained licensure for a myriad of
reasons, but those who really get in it and stick with it have
recurring central interests...Two types come to mind. First are those
who are facinated by radio for radio's sake...Gadgets.


I don't think I've ever got over my facination with how radio waves bridge
huge distances. It still seems like magic even though I have studied how it
works.

The other are those who see Amateur Radio as a further means to an
end...public service, emergency services, etc.

Then there are always those "others", ie: husband-wife licensee's
who just
want a cheap honey-do connection and nothing else.

Most of the "active" folks are the gadget operators and ES types,
so let's
go to where they are rather than wait for them to find us..."Popular
Science" and "Popular Mechanics" magazine..."Journal of Emergency
Medical Services", "Emergency Medical Services", etc etc etc.


Agreed. Mind you, ads in Popular Mecanics are incredibly expensive

I never understood why we put the number of "basic" licensing
course ads
we do in Amateur Radio magazines...Most folks who read them are ALREADY
licensed!

Ham radio license tests should be reduced to
passing a test on mouse operations in order for ham radio to compete
with the Internet? Passing a one-button mouse test garners a Tech
ticket, two gets a General and two plus a scroller wheel gets the
examinee an Extra?

Where do you get that from? I don't think we should reduce theory
standards atall. I just think we need to abolish the code test.

Code test-schmode test...If you want to re-establish some validity
of the
Amateur Radio Service's credibility as a breeding ground for
technically competent licensees, close the written test pools.

That will never happen, however, for one very prominent reason if
no
other...Truth be known that MOST people would never get an Amateur
license because of the WRITTEN test...In it's raw form, it requires
that the applicant actually KNOW something. That requires REAL
learning, not just rote memorization, which is exactly what learning
Morse Code is, and is exactly what the written tests are now.

Element 1 only adds access to about 2.5% of all Amateur
allocations.
Those that really wanted HF priviledges only saw the Code test as a
hurdle...Not a brick wall.

73

Steve, K4YZ







My recollection of hurdles in school sports is mostly of falling over the
bl**dy things, HI!

Alun, N3KIP

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 10:21 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 9:30 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

That would be me. Not just tapes, in fact I didn't find tapes to be a
good method of learning, but I've never attached a key to a rig. What
was the point of me learning 20wpm?

Uhhhhhhhhhh....passing Element 1C...?!?!

So let me rephrase that. Why should I have had to pass 1C to get the bottom
ends of the phone subbands? Actually, that's where the DX used to be, but
it seems to have moved up to avoid the 'hernia nets' that now seem to
occupy that spectrum.

Because at the time that was what was required to pass the level of
licensure you sought.

Obviously you WANTED that level of licensure because you did what you had
to do and got over it. The benefits outweighed the effort to obtain them.

How many people "want" to be doctors, airline pilots, bankers, etc, but
never get there because of the amount of education or training it takes to get
there?

Yes, some are hindered by financial or other "real world" hurdles, but
then too there are hundreds of stories of people who worked two-three
jobs...weathered divorces...single parenthood...etc and overcame those hurdles
to get what they wanted.

It's all a matter of what you want as opposed to what you're willing to do
to get it.

As for the "hernia nets", they aren't a factor for me...I don't find folks
who are predisposed to discussing thier gastrointestinal dysfunctions below the
phone subbands.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 10:29 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

If one reflects back on the history and demograpics of the Amateur
Radio
Service, there have been those who obtained licensure for a myriad of
reasons, but those who really get in it and stick with it have
recurring central interests...Two types come to mind. First are those
who are facinated by radio for radio's sake...Gadgets.


I don't think I've ever got over my facination with how radio waves bridge
huge distances. It still seems like magic even though I have studied how it
works.

Ditto! And altho I can "work" somone in Australia on the pooter, I liken
it to fishing with hand grenades!...

It takes skill to drop that line in and coax "the big one" onto the hook!

I am the same way with aircraft. I used to live at the junction of two
low-level military training routes in Sequatchie County, Tennessee, and was
routinely treated to impromptu "airshows" courtesy of the United States Air
Force, Navy and Marine Corps. I could hear the "whistling" of the engines
coming up the valley and would run out to catch a glimpse.

When the U.S. was gearing up for Kosovo, B-1B Lancers and F15 Eagles were
regulars along the route.

Most of the "active" folks are the gadget operators and ES types,
so let's
go to where they are rather than wait for them to find us..."Popular
Science" and "Popular Mechanics" magazine..."Journal of Emergency
Medical Services", "Emergency Medical Services", etc etc etc.


Agreed. Mind you, ads in Popular Mecanics are incredibly expensive

I agree, but what price would we pay if we lost Amateur Radio altogether
due to low census? With the dollar-figures the ARRL posts every year they can
afford to put at least one full page ad in those mags per quarter, at least!

Element 1 only adds access to about 2.5% of all Amateur
allocations.
Those that really wanted HF priviledges only saw the Code test as a
hurdle...Not a brick wall.

My recollection of hurdles in school sports is mostly of falling over the
bl**dy things, HI!

Jump higher, Alun! =)

73

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

Subject: Let's debate: Should Amateur Radio be made a free for all?
From: Alun
Date: 5/8/2004 10:29 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in
:

If one reflects back on the history and demograpics of the
Amateur Radio
Service, there have been those who obtained licensure for a myriad of
reasons, but those who really get in it and stick with it have
recurring central interests...Two types come to mind. First are
those who are facinated by radio for radio's sake...Gadgets.


I don't think I've ever got over my facination with how radio waves
bridge huge distances. It still seems like magic even though I have
studied how it works.

Ditto! And altho I can "work" somone in Australia on the pooter,
I liken
it to fishing with hand grenades!...

It takes skill to drop that line in and coax "the big one" onto
the hook!

I am the same way with aircraft. I used to live at the junction
of two
low-level military training routes in Sequatchie County, Tennessee, and
was routinely treated to impromptu "airshows" courtesy of the United
States Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps. I could hear the "whistling"
of the engines coming up the valley and would run out to catch a
glimpse.

When the U.S. was gearing up for Kosovo, B-1B Lancers and F15
Eagles were
regulars along the route.

Most of the "active" folks are the gadget operators and ES
types, so let's
go to where they are rather than wait for them to find us..."Popular
Science" and "Popular Mechanics" magazine..."Journal of Emergency
Medical Services", "Emergency Medical Services", etc etc etc.


Agreed. Mind you, ads in Popular Mecanics are incredibly expensive

I agree, but what price would we pay if we lost Amateur Radio
altogether
due to low census? With the dollar-figures the ARRL posts every year
they can afford to put at least one full page ad in those mags per
quarter, at least!

Element 1 only adds access to about 2.5% of all Amateur
allocations.
Those that really wanted HF priviledges only saw the Code test as a
hurdle...Not a brick wall.

My recollection of hurdles in school sports is mostly of falling over
the bl**dy things, HI!

Jump higher, Alun! =)

73

Steve, K4YZ







I have short legs

Alun wrote:
Dave Heil wrote in
:


Alun wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in news:409ABB0C.C1D993E8
:


Alun wrote:


I'll grant that 5wpm is relatively easy, but still a lot of work

There's a gaping contradiction buried in there some place.



Not atall. Something doesn't have to be hard to take a long time to do.

Now you've added an additional element. We've gone from "easy" to "a
lot of work" to "long time to do". Something "easy" wouldn't seem to
require either a lot of work or a long time to do.


Why not? I don't see any contradiction. For example, bricklaying is easy,
but how long would it take you to build the Great Wall of China? In any
case, I only said relatively easy, by which I meant it is below the speed
at which you can no longer copy individual dits and dahs, which was a
barrier to a lot of people..


I have little sympathy for anyone who would claim that learning morse at
a speed of five words per minute is a lot of work or that it requires a
long time to learn.

Dave K8MN



That's the trouble with this whole debate. It isn't uniformly difficult for
different people.

Excellent point, Alun. Every once in a while, I have to remind the
folks that *do* find it easy that their experience is not everyone's.
It took me 6 months of every day practice to get to 5 wpm. And I flunked
the first element 1 test I took.

I am now getting close to 13 wpm, but it depends on how my ears are
behaving on any particular day. On good days I can do it, but if I'm
tired or stressed, I'm back to 5 wpm in a heartbeat.

This second effort has been another roughly three month effort - this
hasn't quite been every day though.

I'm neither lazy, stupid or unmotivated.

Interesting to think that under the old system, I would only just
possibly be a General, and yet under the new, I am an Extra.

Considering that my main interests are the digital modes for my
everyday hamming, I would probably not be anything at all, since I would
have been years learning.

- Mike KB3EIA -