"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...


Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

If not required by laws or rules, then it is required out of some level
of
operational courtesy though.

Ryan
KC8PMX

I prefer that people simply say their callsign to me. Phonetics annoy
me mostly. When they use their phonetics, are they practicing courtesy
to me?

- Mike KB3EIA -


I find that people have a high error percentage in getting my call correct
even with a clear, strong FM signal unless I give it at least once
phonetically. While my call is N8UZE, the Z is frequently repeated back to
me as B, C, D, G, P, T, or V. The only people who don't make that mistake
are those who have known me for a while and are familiar with my call.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Da Shadow wrote:

But there are strong recommendations from the various Amateur Radio
Socities
that you do.

And I have heard many times in pile-ups --- ITU Phonetics only and some
DX
operators won't answer you with any other phonetics.

--
Lamont Cranston


Wow, it must be something for these "operators" to be so anal! If a
person only answers me because I speak a certain way, then I'll forgo
their blessed contact.

- Mike KB3EIA -


There's often quite a good reason for it. Many DX stations only have a
minimal grasp of English and departing from the ICAO phonetics can cause
them real problems in getting the call sign correct.

In addition, if everyone is using the same phonetics, the brain becomes
trained to them and can pick it out even if mispronounced, heavily accented,
or incompletely heard due to noise or interference.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Da Shadow wrote:


But there are strong recommendations from the various Amateur Radio

Socities

that you do.

And I have heard many times in pile-ups --- ITU Phonetics only and some

DX

operators won't answer you with any other phonetics.

--
Lamont Cranston


Wow, it must be something for these "operators" to be so anal! If a
person only answers me because I speak a certain way, then I'll forgo
their blessed contact.

- Mike KB3EIA -



There's often quite a good reason for it. Many DX stations only have a
minimal grasp of English and departing from the ICAO phonetics can cause
them real problems in getting the call sign correct.

Do they really have that bad a grasp, I wonder? Language barrier would
argue in favor of the "country" type phonetics instead of the ICAU
versions. In the short time I have been a ham, I have made use of the
languages I have learned in the past, and worked at picking up others. I
sure as anything would work hard at picking up English if I was planning
on working DX.

p.s. no Anglo-centrism here - I would pick up Swahili if need be.


In addition, if everyone is using the same phonetics, the brain becomes
trained to them and can pick it out even if mispronounced, heavily accented,
or incompletely heard due to noise or interference.

- Mike KB3EIA -

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:52:22 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

I prefer that people simply say their callsign to me. Phonetics annoy
me mostly. When they use their phonetics, are they practicing courtesy
to me?

We have an individual (respected old-timer at that) who, when he
takes his turn-in-the-barrel as net control of our daily ARES/RACES
check-in, gets confused over people's call signs regardless of
whether phonetics are used or not, and even if one identifies with
phonetics, he will acknowledge with some ad-hoc inconsistent mixture
of ITU, old military, and old telco (cities) phonetics.

For one, it drives me nuts even though he's a nice guy.

And on another score, the last letter in my call is "P", and how can
"pa-PA" - or even the popular pronunciation "poppuh" be confused with
"Japan" ??

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in
:


"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...


Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:

If not required by laws or rules, then it is required out of some
level of operational courtesy though.

Ryan
KC8PMX

I prefer that people simply say their callsign to me. Phonetics annoy
me mostly. When they use their phonetics, are they practicing courtesy
to me?

- Mike KB3EIA -


I find that people have a high error percentage in getting my call
correct even with a clear, strong FM signal unless I give it at least
once phonetically. While my call is N8UZE, the Z is frequently
repeated back to me as B, C, D, G, P, T, or V. The only people who
don't make that mistake are those who have known me for a while and are
familiar with my call.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE


Likewise, without phonetics my call is often copied as N3KRP or N3KAP
instead of N3KIP. Unfortunately, using international phonetics my November
3 Kilo India Papa is often copied as November 3 Kilo India Japan (see the
argument above with Hans who favours the alternate set that uses Japan
instead of Juliet).

JJ wrote in newsa2dnWsHvLe-JVHdRVn-
:

Ryan, KC8PMX wrote:


As a
ham I am required to use the ITU phonetics.......

There is no rule that a ham must use a certain set if phonetics.



No indeed, but I wish there was.

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Da Shadow wrote:


But there are strong recommendations from the various Amateur Radio

Socities

that you do.

And I have heard many times in pile-ups --- ITU Phonetics only and
some

DX

operators won't answer you with any other phonetics.

--
Lamont Cranston


Wow, it must be something for these "operators" to be so anal! If a
person only answers me because I speak a certain way, then I'll forgo
their blessed contact.

- Mike KB3EIA -



There's often quite a good reason for it. Many DX stations only have a
minimal grasp of English and departing from the ICAO phonetics can cause
them real problems in getting the call sign correct.

Do they really have that bad a grasp, I wonder? Language barrier would
argue in favor of the "country" type phonetics instead of the ICAU
versions. In the short time I have been a ham, I have made use of the
languages I have learned in the past, and worked at picking up others. I
sure as anything would work hard at picking up English if I was planning
on working DX.


It actually is not rare for a DX station to know practically no English at
all (it is even more true in a contest that includes DX). Some are simply
interested in running contacts. All they can handle is a signal report and
call sign. So using the phonetics THEY want or are accustomed to is the
polite thing to do.

Keep in mind that the ICAO phonetics were developed with certain criteria in
mind. One of these is that they be relatively easy to pronounce even if the
person doesn't otherwise speak English. Another criterion was that even if
mispronounced, listeners could still ascertain what letter was intended.
For example, the French may actually pronounce "Charlie" as "Sharlie" but
the listener is still able to get the right letter. Germans may pronounce
"Whiskey" as "Viskey" but we still get the letter correct. Americans will
mispronounce "Quebec" and "Papa" but again the other station has a very good
chance of getting it correct. Another criterion was that the words be of
reasonable length, neither excessively short or excessively long. Although
the ICAO phonetics sometimes are poor in meeting all the criteria, the
country name approach is often poorer in this regard (e.g. Zanzibar is just
way too long).

Now I have used phonetics other than the ICAO upon occasion. However I
always start with the ICAO and switch only if they can't seem to understand,
which happens on shortwave with the noise and interference. Fortunately
that is rare for me. My call seems to work quite well with the ICAO
phonetics. On the other hand, my OM sometimes finds it necessary to use
"Sugar" instead of "Sierra" and "Germany" instead of "Golf". The soft,
sibilant sound of "Sierra" often gets lost in the hiss of noise and the
throaty "Golf" seems almost to get "swallowed" when spoken and sometimes
doesn't come through well. Still this does not mean one should disregard
the ICAO set.

The objective is always clarity of communication. Standardization of
approach generally helps this. That is why the ICAO developed its phonetics
and why amateur organizations encourage the use of this set.

Again it goes back to what the brain has been trained to do. To someone who
is accustomed to using "Zulu", the phonetic "Zanzibar" can cause the brain
to momentarily stumble in getting the letter. Then a repeat is required.
Would you rather repeat the phonetic several times or use one that the
station is accustomed to so they can get it on the first try?

In looking at your call, you are fortunate (just as I am) to have one
composed of letters that comes across easily using the ICAO phonetics.
There should be no need to use any other set with a call such as yours and
other phonetics could actually be confusing.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Da Shadow wrote:

But there are strong recommendations from the various Amateur Radio
Socities that you do.

And I have heard many times in pile-ups --- ITU Phonetics only and
some DX operators won't answer you with any other phonetics.

--
Lamont Cranston


Wow, it must be something for these "operators" to be so anal! If
a
person only answers me because I speak a certain way, then I'll forgo
their blessed contact.

- Mike KB3EIA -



If they don't know much English, it's a bit rough on them to use non-
standard words, and even if they do, it increases the chance of a busted
call in the log.

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:


After you've lived and experienced a few eras in anything, you'll
find lots and lots of "experts" in that anything, who either "know
all about (from reading a book or seeing a movie)" or are some-
how so gifted in their relative youth that they are divine
messengers sent to enlighten all the hoi polloi and the koi.
:-)


Gee, Len, that's interesting....

You mean like someone who's never held any class of amateur license, nor
been
involved in radio regulation in any way, yet loudly and repeatedly
proclaims
what changes should be made to the amateur radio regulations?

Or someone who has never been directly invoved in the raising of children,
yet
proclaims what they can and cannot do at various ages - even to the point
of
not allowing them to be amateur radio operators before a certain age?

Or someone who has never really learned or used Morse Code, yet loudly and
repeatedly denies its usefulness - even to the point of denying its
historical
importance?

Or someone who claims a desire for "civil discussion", yet will not carry
on a
civil discussion with someone of differing opinions, and instead refers to
the
other parties by ad-hominem insults to their age, work, gender, license
class,
education, name, ethnicity, and military service?

You forgot to add:

"Someone that has a main purpose here of antagonizing people into
e-battles as a master troll." And in this case, his lack of experience
in certain areas only serves as more bait.

Well, if the shoe fits...

I for one, am impressed by just how GOOD Mr. Anderson is at this!

I'm not.

You
(or anyone here) know what will happen when you rise to the bait, you
know pretty much what the resulting exchange will be, and yet it is
irresistable.

Naw, it's totally resistible. And predictable.

Whereas most antagonists eventually find no one to write to in a news
group, Len has managed to generate enough interest to make himself and
those who would spar with him into some of the leading posters.

Nothing new there, Mike.

This is no small accomplishment. I for one have to respect that.

I don't.

There's nothing to respect or admire able about being able to tear down,
insult, and destroy - or attempt to.

Here's a classic for ya - I call it "the sphincter post":

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...001001%40nso-f
p.aol.com&output=gplain

I hear tell that those air raids on Tokyo in the fifties were exercises
in sheer terror. I have to admit to being a little puzzled by what
appears to be a reference to the writer's multiple sphincters (in the
next to last paragraph).

Dave K8MN

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Temper Fry, Was Able Baker Charlie
From: (William)
Date: 6/12/2004 5:34 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...
Subject: Able Baker Charlie
From: (William)
Date: 6/11/2004 11:50 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I'm going to start a new fenetic alfabet:

ahoy
boy...(SNIP)

Ebonics goes Caucasian. Why am I not surprised Son Of Lennie came up
with it?

Steve, K4YZ

Steve, no thanks for the private email, even though I've asked you
repeatedly not to communicate with me privately. I really do prefer
to keep all comms with you strictly public. You broke the rules, but
certainly in keeping with your mode of operation.

No problem, Brain.

YOU made promises about certain "private" e mails before that you
overtly broke...

Just like your mentor...

Poor baby. Still fretting over AOL tossing off your private home page
that was totally libelous? :-)

And all because of a simple mistake in private e-mails which nursie
complained long and loudly about in public in here? :-)

PCTA Exta double standard at work. QED.

Len, I don't see Steve's post in Google. Is he using the "no
archive?"

Can't blame him what with such a litiguous society.

So how is it that you can call people liars all day long, give people
a deadline to produce some google search, hound and hound those who
disagree with you, and in general be the sweetheart pariah of the
PCTA?

But when someone else calls you a liar, when you have lied, you
threaten a summons. Are you nuts? No. Don't answer that question.
I don't want any more lies out of you.

I've not uttered any lies here, Brain.

"Sorry Hans, MARS IS amateur radio!" :-)

You've made THAT accusation before and never substantiated it. Just
like you've never justified ANY of the claims YOU'VE made.

Nursie never ever do anything wrong. Everyone else do wrong! :-)

He's an idiot.

You make accusations and claims you don't justify then cry "foul!" when
you get spoon fed your own silliness.

Sucks to be you, Brain. Seems it's a well worn path, though.

More "meaningful discourse." :-)

Len, I've always said that my /T5 logs are in storage. A simple 5
minute google search could have borne that out. But Steve had to make
up stories. Untrue stories. They're not lost, never have been. And
I know that Steve and Kelly aren't in them because I didn't work any
USA stations.

So congratulations on earning persona non grata. You've truly worked
hard at ii. Earned, Never Given.

According to YOU...?!?!

HAH!

And FWIW, the fenetic alfabet was a joke, but leave it to the mentally
impaired to think is was a serious effort.

I KNOW it was a joke. I have yet to see a whole lot come out of you
that I could take seriously. How could I?

Sayonara and have a great life.

As long as I have folks like you and Lennie against which I can benchmark
what is bad as compared to what is good, it IS a great life.

You REALLY don't get it, do you?

Nobody does. Nursie's personal reality is there and this is
it for him.

Nobody does. Nobody "gets it." Hannibal Lector might get it, but I
don't.

Meanwhile, DoD Directive 4650.2, AR 25-4, NTP 8(C) are still
there, defining and regulating MARS for the Military.

Sad that Steve can't read, can't google. It would save him a lot of
grief. He can only make untrue accusations about sexual orientation
and preferences for minors.

NATO did adopt its phonetic alphabet in 1955...the next to the
last year I was on active duty in the U.S. Army.

Why didn't they just wait for IGY?

None of that happened according to nursie. All of us "Lie."
The real truth is in his imagination. Tsk, tsk.

He has demons inside.

Temper fry...

LHA / WMD