In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

"KØHB" wrote in message
link.net...

"Jim Hampton" wrote

Just out of curiosity, do you have an idea of how
much power the Navy uses on the VLF stuff?

I don't know current QRO, but in the 70's the COMSUBLANT transmitter at
Cutler was 1,700,000W on 15.9KHz and the COMSUBPAC transmitter at Jim
Creek was 2,200,000W on 17.1KHz. The ELF site at Clam Lake is
reportedly engineered for just under 1,000,000,000W at somewhere just
above powerline QRG, 75Hz if I remember correctly. The antenna is just
under 29 miles long.

73, de Hans, K0HB


Hello, Hans

And *we* are paying for it
Those are *big* qro rigs LOL

Sort of.

2,200,000W looks like a lot -and it is a lot, in the world of radio
transmitters. 2.2 million watts!

But compare it to other technologies....

2.2 million watts is only 2200 kW. At 746 W per HP, that works out to just
under 2,950 HP. You could get more than that out of a single 1950s era diesel
electric railroad locomotive, or a WW2 bomber - or about a dozen SUVs.

Compared to the power of even a "small" USN ship or submarine...

The 1 gigawatt ELF system is a bit bigger, of course. Count the cars on the
Genessee Expressway where it crosses Jefferson Road at rush hour and see how
quickly you get to the million-horsepower mark...

73 de Jim, N2EY

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
Date: 6/20/2004 3:18 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 20 Jun 2004 13:14:21 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

I see at least one reference to a Civil Air Patrol station.

Yep - Puerto Rico CAP is their correct State Wing callsign. Like
Florida CAP where you are, or WHITE PEAK where I am.

I'm not in Florida.

I DON'T see ANY reference to any Part 15 or other unlicensed devices
being
employed or reported. Nor do I see any PLMRS, GMRS, or MURS systems.
(Certain
posters here insist they play a "major" role in "emergency comms"...Guess
they
will be in the NEXT exercise...?!?!

In all fairness, the frequencies posted were in relation to a military
exercise and to an exercise of a radio net oprated by the civilian
government in support of said military exercise. This is far removed
from the type of "emergency comms" in which GMRS, MURS, FRS, and
Amateur stations would be involved.

That one wasn't on you, John. Certain other posters have "insisted" that
those radio services are "major" contributors to "emergency comms".

They have yet to establish any validity for those claims.

73

Steve, K4YZ

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
Date: 6/20/2004 3:18 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 20 Jun 2004 13:14:21 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

I see at least one reference to a Civil Air Patrol station.

Yep - Puerto Rico CAP is their correct State Wing callsign. Like
Florida CAP where you are, or WHITE PEAK where I am.

I'm not in Florida.

Of course. Florida is not part of Fantasyland.

I DON'T see ANY reference to any Part 15 or other unlicensed devices
being
employed or reported. Nor do I see any PLMRS, GMRS, or MURS systems.
(Certain
posters here insist they play a "major" role in "emergency comms"...Guess
they
will be in the NEXT exercise...?!?!

In all fairness, the frequencies posted were in relation to a military
exercise and to an exercise of a radio net oprated by the civilian
government in support of said military exercise. This is far removed
from the type of "emergency comms" in which GMRS, MURS, FRS, and
Amateur stations would be involved.

That one wasn't on you, John. Certain other posters have "insisted" that
those radio services are "major" contributors to "emergency comms".

They have yet to establish any validity for those claims.

No need. There's a cellular telephone subscription for one
out of three U.S. citizens according to the U.S. Census
Bureau. (cellphones are not Part 15 devices) CB radios
number somewhere between 2 and 5 MILLION, estimated
by NTIA. (CB is not under Part 15) I don't know how
many FRS/GMRS HTs have been sold, but they are
regular consumer electronics items as consumer electronics
stores and are good for 5 to 10 miles communications
range. (FRS isn't under Part 15 either)

One-way communications has been provided in emergencies
for decades by broadcasting (also not under Part 15). In real
emergencies the Public Land Mobile Radio Service (PLMRS)
radios have been invaluable for local government and utility
and medical aid agencies. (PLMRS isn't under Part 15).

It is very inaccurate to state anyone has "insisted unlicensed
devices play a 'major' role" in emergencies. Those radios
ARE used by emergency communications groups in real
emergencies.

Try to get with reality instead of hiding in outrage in fantasy-
land over some perceived "insult" against your shouting
and arm-waving.

LHA / WMD

On 21 Jun 2004 13:33:29 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

Yep - Puerto Rico CAP is their correct State Wing callsign. Like
Florida CAP where you are, or WHITE PEAK where I am.

I'm not in Florida.

Hmmm...okay, I stand corrected. I don't know why, but for some reason,
I thought you lived in Florida. shrug

I DON'T see ANY reference to any Part 15 or other unlicensed devices
being
employed or reported. Nor do I see any PLMRS, GMRS, or MURS systems.
(Certain
posters here insist they play a "major" role in "emergency comms"...Guess
they
will be in the NEXT exercise...?!?!

In all fairness, the frequencies posted were in relation to a military
exercise and to an exercise of a radio net oprated by the civilian
government in support of said military exercise. This is far removed
from the type of "emergency comms" in which GMRS, MURS, FRS, and
Amateur stations would be involved.

That one wasn't on you, John.

No problem, I didn't interpret it as being one on me, but as long as I
was replying to your post, I chipped in my $0.02 worth. Read on...

Certain other posters have "insisted" that
those radio services are "major" contributors to "emergency comms".

They have yet to establish any validity for those claims.

I didn't see the original posts on that, but if you've accurately
summarized what was said, then I would also be interested in learning
of the specifics.

I'm personally aware of some areas where there are Neighborhood Watch
groups using FRS radios, and at least one where an ARES group uses
GMRS to communicate with the local NW group on FRS (the first seven
channels are the same freqs).

I'm also personally aware of instances where FRS radios are used by
ARES/RACES personnel or by government or emergency services personnel.

I am not personally aware of any instances where the regular users of
FRS, GMRS, MURS, and the other Part 15 services are written into the
disaster plans for a given locality, except in the case of REACT
groups using equipment for those services. In the sense of having
families who use FRS radios at the mall to help keep track of the kids
being written into emergency communications contingency planning, or
folks who use GMRS or MUR for similar purposes, no, I've never seen or
heard of that being done. That of course doesn't mean it hasn't been
done somewhere, just that if it has, I haven't heard of it - I'd like
to hear about it if someone's got specifics on one or more cases where
this has been done, though.

73 DE John D. Kasupski
Tonawanda, New York, USA
Amateur Radio (KC2HMZ), HF/VHF/UHF Monitoring (KNY2VS)
Member ARATS, ARES, RACES, WUN

On 21 Jun 2004 21:42:13 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

No need. There's a cellular telephone subscription for one
out of three U.S. citizens according to the U.S. Census
Bureau. (cellphones are not Part 15 devices) CB radios
number somewhere between 2 and 5 MILLION, estimated
by NTIA. (CB is not under Part 15) I don't know how
many FRS/GMRS HTs have been sold, but they are
regular consumer electronics items as consumer electronics
stores and are good for 5 to 10 miles communications
range. (FRS isn't under Part 15 either)

One-way communications has been provided in emergencies
for decades by broadcasting (also not under Part 15). In real
emergencies the Public Land Mobile Radio Service (PLMRS)
radios have been invaluable for local government and utility
and medical aid agencies. (PLMRS isn't under Part 15).

I think maybe you're half right, Len. believe it or not, even my ham
rigs are Part 15 devices and come with the usual Part 15 warning
sticker on them.

The transmitter on cell phones (which are radios, not telephones), CB
rigs, FRS/GMRS/PLMRS radios, and ham rigs are covered under those
portions of FCC regulations that authorize the user to operate the
transmitter (part 95 for CB, part 97 for ham, etc.).

However, the receiver portion of the device is covered under Part 15.

It is very inaccurate to state anyone has "insisted unlicensed
devices play a 'major' role" in emergencies. Those radios
ARE used by emergency communications groups in real
emergencies.

As I said, I did not see the original posts, but I am aware of
instances where such equipment is used by governmental and emergency
services personnel, as well as by ARES/RACES and other "civilian"
EmComm groups (like REACT).

73 DE John D. Kasupski
Tonawanda, New York, USA
Amateur Radio (KC2HMZ), HF/VHF/UHF Monitoring (KNY2VS)
Member ARATS, ARES, RACES, WUN

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Best of luck - you're going to have to google everything up to provide
the Security Detail with "proof."

See "Cinderella Liberty."

I didn't. Jack Nicholson is in that one as an SP. Jack also played
Colonel Jessup in "A Few Good Men." [famous line in that pic...
"You can't handle the truth!!!"]

"You can't tell the truth!!!" would be more appropriate. And that
crazy glint in his eye, as in "The Shining."

I'm going to watch Amazon and Hollywood Video (the chain) for
low-cost CDs of that movie. Darn good acting by all involved,
even Tom Cruise.

[I hope that Amazon has it on sale soon...before they go "bank-
rupt." :-) ]

Bankrupt? Hopefully they will actually deliver on all of the pre-sold
Clinton's, "My Life."

tsk, tsk, tsk...all that "hostile action" stuff and never did any
Recon Marine intel patrolling?

Maybe he was a "box kicker."

:-)

"How I Kicked Seven Hostile Boxes," coming to a theater near you.

Oh, heck and darn, Brian, now you have me curious and
I have to start cadging copies of Daily Variety and Hollywood
Reporter to find out the expected release date! :-(

Action-filled scenes at night, no lights...as befits keeping the
when and where a Secret!

I wonder if someone will market little scowling action figures?

One action figure, numerous interchangeable scowling faces.

:-)

LHA / WMD

In article , Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
writes:

On 21 Jun 2004 21:42:13 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

No need. There's a cellular telephone subscription for one
out of three U.S. citizens according to the U.S. Census
Bureau. (cellphones are not Part 15 devices) CB radios
number somewhere between 2 and 5 MILLION, estimated
by NTIA. (CB is not under Part 15) I don't know how
many FRS/GMRS HTs have been sold, but they are
regular consumer electronics items as consumer electronics
stores and are good for 5 to 10 miles communications
range. (FRS isn't under Part 15 either)

One-way communications has been provided in emergencies
for decades by broadcasting (also not under Part 15). In real
emergencies the Public Land Mobile Radio Service (PLMRS)
radios have been invaluable for local government and utility
and medical aid agencies. (PLMRS isn't under Part 15).

I think maybe you're half right, Len. believe it or not, even my ham
rigs are Part 15 devices and come with the usual Part 15 warning
sticker on them.

Part 15 regulations apply to INCIDENTAL EMITTERS such as
receivers, data couplers (if you have software controlled anything
as a peripheral) and so forth.

The stickers are there by the manufacturer and are intended to
make the buying public believe in the sanctity of the product.
:-) Remember the radios and TV sets of old from brand [which]
which said "For best results always use [which] tubes?" :-)

The Parts of Title 47 C.F.R. that apply to various radio services
are listed after a link on the FCC Office of Engineering and
Technology page. Under those parts one gets a link to the GPO
which has the PDF repros of all the Parts of Title 47. The current
issue date at the GPO (Government Printing Office) for Title 47
is 1 October 2003. That facility is a lot better than buying the
same thing in hardcopy from the GPO. The last of five volumes
of Title 47 (Part 80 to end) cost more than $50 even if shipping
costs are free. The GPO does accept VISA and Mastercard
and can take orders over the phone for local GPO outlets.

The transmitter on cell phones (which are radios, not telephones), CB
rigs, FRS/GMRS/PLMRS radios, and ham rigs are covered under those
portions of FCC regulations that authorize the user to operate the
transmitter (part 95 for CB, part 97 for ham, etc.).

However, the receiver portion of the device is covered under Part 15.

True enough. Problem is, nursie doesn't know which Part is
which and becomes emotionally unstable when opposed to
any of his postings.

It is very inaccurate to state anyone has "insisted unlicensed
devices play a 'major' role" in emergencies. Those radios
ARE used by emergency communications groups in real
emergencies.

As I said, I did not see the original posts, but I am aware of
instances where such equipment is used by governmental and emergency
services personnel, as well as by ARES/RACES and other "civilian"
EmComm groups (like REACT).

Nursie doesn't want to see that. The original ranting and raving
against anything "unlicensed" came from a mild comment by
Brian Burke in here over a month ago.

There's two worlds being discussed in here. The major one is
reality - where you and I live - and the fantasylands wherein all
the existing radio communication infrastructure fails in any
emergency, only ham radio being able to save the day.

Not only that, REACT grew through CB radio and the fantasyland
livers think that all CB is evil, wicked, mean, and nasty, unfit
for proper morsemen to ever approach let alone use. CB is
unlicensed, of course, therefore it isn't any good since no test
need be passed to operate one. :-)

You and I know that most real emergencies are very local in
nature and those can be aided by relatively short-range radios
having 2 to 15 mile ranges. Those can be any of the presently
unlicensed radios as well as licensed, such as PLMRS.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of messaging in here, other than
the "learned" pontificating of political pundits, involves arguing
the fantasyland worlds of the various angry PCTA or those who
wish to seek gurudom of the newsgroup (and whose words are
golden, never ever to be talked against). Unless one is a
regular reader in here it is difficult to follow some threads...even
those that don't evolve into the flame wars you see. :-)

Radio Amateur KC2HMZ wrote in
:

On 21 Jun 2004 21:42:13 GMT, (Len Over 21) wrote:

No need. There's a cellular telephone subscription for one
out of three U.S. citizens according to the U.S. Census
Bureau. (cellphones are not Part 15 devices) CB radios
number somewhere between 2 and 5 MILLION, estimated
by NTIA. (CB is not under Part 15) I don't know how
many FRS/GMRS HTs have been sold, but they are
regular consumer electronics items as consumer electronics
stores and are good for 5 to 10 miles communications
range. (FRS isn't under Part 15 either)

One-way communications has been provided in emergencies
for decades by broadcasting (also not under Part 15). In real
emergencies the Public Land Mobile Radio Service (PLMRS)
radios have been invaluable for local government and utility and
medical aid agencies. (PLMRS isn't under Part 15).

I think maybe you're half right, Len. believe it or not, even my ham
rigs are Part 15 devices and come with the usual Part 15 warning
sticker on them.


They are only under Part 15 for unwanted radiated emmissions, i.e. RF
leakage from the case.

The transmitter on cell phones (which are radios, not telephones), CB
rigs, FRS/GMRS/PLMRS radios, and ham rigs are covered under those
portions of FCC regulations that authorize the user to operate the
transmitter (part 95 for CB, part 97 for ham, etc.).

However, the receiver portion of the device is covered under Part 15.

It is very inaccurate to state anyone has "insisted unlicensed
devices play a 'major' role" in emergencies. Those radios
ARE used by emergency communications groups in real emergencies.

As I said, I did not see the original posts, but I am aware of
instances where such equipment is used by governmental and emergency
services personnel, as well as by ARES/RACES and other "civilian"
EmComm groups (like REACT).

73 DE John D. Kasupski
Tonawanda, New York, USA
Amateur Radio (KC2HMZ), HF/VHF/UHF Monitoring (KNY2VS)
Member ARATS, ARES, RACES, WUN

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Best of luck - you're going to have to google everything up to provide
the Security Detail with "proof."

See "Cinderella Liberty."

I didn't. Jack Nicholson is in that one as an SP. Jack also played
Colonel Jessup in "A Few Good Men." [famous line in that pic...
"You can't handle the truth!!!"]

"You can't tell the truth!!!" would be more appropriate. And that
crazy glint in his eye, as in "The Shining."

I'm going to watch Amazon and Hollywood Video (the chain) for
low-cost CDs of that movie. Darn good acting by all involved,
even Tom Cruise.

[I hope that Amazon has it on sale soon...before they go "bank-
rupt." :-) ]

Bankrupt? Hopefully they will actually deliver on all of the pre-sold
Clinton's, "My Life."

tsk, tsk, tsk...all that "hostile action" stuff and never did any
Recon Marine intel patrolling?

Maybe he was a "box kicker."

:-)

"How I Kicked Seven Hostile Boxes," coming to a theater near you.

Oh, heck and darn, Brian, now you have me curious and
I have to start cadging copies of Daily Variety and Hollywood
Reporter to find out the expected release date! :-(

Action-filled scenes at night, no lights...as befits keeping the
when and where a Secret!

I wonder if someone will market little scowling action figures?

One action figure, numerous interchangeable scowling faces.

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

Best of luck - you're going to have to google everything up to provide
the Security Detail with "proof."

See "Cinderella Liberty."

I didn't. Jack Nicholson is in that one as an SP. Jack also played
Colonel Jessup in "A Few Good Men." [famous line in that pic...
"You can't handle the truth!!!"]

"You can't tell the truth!!!" would be more appropriate. And that
crazy glint in his eye, as in "The Shining."

I'm going to watch Amazon and Hollywood Video (the chain) for
low-cost CDs of that movie. Darn good acting by all involved,
even Tom Cruise.

[I hope that Amazon has it on sale soon...before they go "bank-
rupt." :-) ]

Bankrupt? Hopefully they will actually deliver on all of the pre-sold
Clinton's, "My Life."

tsk, tsk, tsk...all that "hostile action" stuff and never did any
Recon Marine intel patrolling?

Maybe he was a "box kicker."

:-)

"How I Kicked Seven Hostile Boxes," coming to a theater near you.

Oh, heck and darn, Brian, now you have me curious and
I have to start cadging copies of Daily Variety and Hollywood
Reporter to find out the expected release date! :-(

Action-filled scenes at night, no lights...as befits keeping the
when and where a Secret!

I wonder if someone will market little scowling action figures?

One action figure, numerous interchangeable scowling faces.

[oops...didn't complete that message!]

I hope they have cute little interchangeable UNIFORMS to go
with them. Scrubs, cammies, poopysuits, etc. That would make
them "authentic." :-)

LHA / WMD