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June 21st 04, 11:53 PM

On 21 Jun 2004 13:33:29 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

Yep - Puerto Rico CAP is their correct State Wing callsign. Like
Florida CAP where you are, or WHITE PEAK where I am.

I'm not in Florida.

Hmmm...okay, I stand corrected. I don't know why, but for some reason,
I thought you lived in Florida. shrug

I DON'T see ANY reference to any Part 15 or other unlicensed devices
being
employed or reported. Nor do I see any PLMRS, GMRS, or MURS systems.
(Certain
posters here insist they play a "major" role in "emergency comms"...Guess
they
will be in the NEXT exercise...?!?!

In all fairness, the frequencies posted were in relation to a military
exercise and to an exercise of a radio net oprated by the civilian
government in support of said military exercise. This is far removed
from the type of "emergency comms" in which GMRS, MURS, FRS, and
Amateur stations would be involved.

That one wasn't on you, John.

No problem, I didn't interpret it as being one on me, but as long as I
was replying to your post, I chipped in my $0.02 worth. Read on...

Certain other posters have "insisted" that
those radio services are "major" contributors to "emergency comms".

They have yet to establish any validity for those claims.

I didn't see the original posts on that, but if you've accurately
summarized what was said, then I would also be interested in learning
of the specifics.

I'm personally aware of some areas where there are Neighborhood Watch
groups using FRS radios, and at least one where an ARES group uses
GMRS to communicate with the local NW group on FRS (the first seven
channels are the same freqs).

I'm also personally aware of instances where FRS radios are used by
ARES/RACES personnel or by government or emergency services personnel.

I am not personally aware of any instances where the regular users of
FRS, GMRS, MURS, and the other Part 15 services are written into the
disaster plans for a given locality, except in the case of REACT
groups using equipment for those services. In the sense of having
families who use FRS radios at the mall to help keep track of the kids
being written into emergency communications contingency planning, or
folks who use GMRS or MUR for similar purposes, no, I've never seen or
heard of that being done. That of course doesn't mean it hasn't been
done somewhere, just that if it has, I haven't heard of it - I'd like
to hear about it if someone's got specifics on one or more cases where
this has been done, though.

73 DE John D. Kasupski
Tonawanda, New York, USA
Amateur Radio (KC2HMZ), HF/VHF/UHF Monitoring (KNY2VS)
Member ARATS, ARES, RACES, WUN

June 22nd 04, 10:27 AM

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
Date: 6/21/2004 4:53 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On 21 Jun 2004 13:33:29 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

Yep - Puerto Rico CAP is their correct State Wing callsign. Like
Florida CAP where you are, or WHITE PEAK where I am.

I'm not in Florida.

Hmmm...okay, I stand corrected. I don't know why, but for some reason,
I thought you lived in Florida. shrug

Nope....Other than working situations, have always been in Tennessee
(since joining the forum)

Certain other posters have "insisted" that
those radio services are "major" contributors to "emergency comms".

They have yet to establish any validity for those claims.

I didn't see the original posts on that, but if you've accurately
summarized what was said, then I would also be interested in learning
of the specifics.

Refer to Brain Burke, N0MIND...I mean Brian Burke, N0IMD...He's the
progentiator of that bit of silliness.

I'm personally aware of some areas where there are Neighborhood Watch
groups using FRS radios, and at least one where an ARES group uses
GMRS to communicate with the local NW group on FRS (the first seven
channels are the same freqs).

Yes, those services ARE used...The point here is "major role". Those are
great ancilliary tools for end-users. They do not play a "major role" in
"emergency comms".

I'm also personally aware of instances where FRS radios are used by
ARES/RACES personnel or by government or emergency services personnel.

The only instance I know of FRS/GMRS bveing used by them is as a liasion
with non-Amateur services...quite practical, actually.

I am not personally aware of any instances where the regular users of
FRS, GMRS, MURS, and the other Part 15 services are written into the
disaster plans for a given locality, except in the case of REACT
groups using equipment for those services. In the sense of having
families who use FRS radios at the mall to help keep track of the kids
being written into emergency communications contingency planning, or
folks who use GMRS or MUR for similar purposes, no, I've never seen or
heard of that being done. That of course doesn't mean it hasn't been
done somewhere, just that if it has, I haven't heard of it - I'd like
to hear about it if someone's got specifics on one or more cases where
this has been done, though.

Colorado Wing, Civil Air Patrol logged a rescue of several stranded hikers
last summer who were in a deep, tree covered ravine. One of the hikers made it
to a road, but couldn't retrace his course. The FRS radios were used to
contact them and locate them...Worked like a champ.

73

Steve, K4YZ

June 22nd 04, 03:30 PM

On 22 Jun 2004 08:27:36 GMT, (Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote:

Yep - Puerto Rico CAP is their correct State Wing callsign. Like
Florida CAP where you are, or WHITE PEAK where I am.

I'm not in Florida.

Hmmm...okay, I stand corrected. I don't know why, but for some reason,
I thought you lived in Florida. shrug

Nope....Other than working situations, have always been in Tennessee
(since joining the forum)

OK, modified statement to reflect your correct QTH would then read,
"Like Tennessee CAP where you are, or WHITE PEAK where I am."

I'm also personally aware of instances where FRS radios are used by
ARES/RACES personnel or by government or emergency services personnel.

The only instance I know of FRS/GMRS bveing used by them is as a liasion
with non-Amateur services...quite practical, actually.

With the ARES/RACES groups, that's the reason for having them, yes.
With government/emrgency services personnel there are of course other
reasons. Niagara County (NY) emergency management has GMRS portables
with the intent of using them for comms between the director and
assistant directors at the scene of an incident where they might be
called into action, or to hand to someone they themselves want to be
able to communicate with, as in the case of the one they handed to me
once last year (about five minutes after telling me not to come up on
their frequency with my own radio, hehe).

At the Thunder Over Niagara airshow a few years ago, members of one of
the local CAP groups (I believe it was a cadet wing) were using FRS
radios in the performance of their duties at the show (directing
traffic in parking lots, serving as gophers for the adults from the
composite wing at the info booth, and they also had a hamburger and
hotdog stand going). I asked one of them about it, and he told me they
used those little FRS radios a lot, even trained with them for SAR.

They were Motorola FRS radios fully loaded with all the bells and
whistles that were common on FRS radios circa 1999. At the time these
were going for about $150 each. There were about two dozen CAP members
around who had these clipped to the top shirt pockets on their BDUs.

Colorado Wing, Civil Air Patrol logged a rescue of several stranded hikers
last summer who were in a deep, tree covered ravine. One of the hikers made it
to a road, but couldn't retrace his course. The FRS radios were used to
contact them and locate them...Worked like a champ.

So the guys I met at NF aren't the only CAP personnel equipped with
and using FRS. Motorola (or someone) must appreciate the business,
because for SAR work they're probably NOT going out and buying the
cheapest radios they can find (or at least I hope they aren't).

The other EmComm group I'm with (other than Erie County ARES/RACES),
which is the public service and emcomm team sponsored by the ham radio
club I am a member of, is also starting to equip with the combined
FRS/GMRS portables that have been hitting the market recently. Our
thinking is quite simply, if it is capable of maintaining comms (with
hams and non-hams) it might come in handy, and at the inexpensive
prices these can be had for, it's worth the investment since you never
know when something like that will come in handy.

73 DE John D. Kasupski
Tonawanda, New York, USA
Amateur Radio (KC2HMZ), HF/VHF/UHF Monitoring (KNY2VS)
Member ARATS, ARES, RACES, WUN

June 23rd 04, 03:30 AM

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
Date: 6/22/2004 8:30 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

At the Thunder Over Niagara airshow a few years ago, members of one of
the local CAP groups (I believe it was a cadet wing) were using FRS
radios in the performance of their duties at the show (directing
traffic in parking lots, serving as gophers for the adults from the
composite wing at the info booth, and they also had a hamburger and
hotdog stand going). I asked one of them about it, and he told me they
used those little FRS radios a lot, even trained with them for SAR.

CAP has had a lot of in-fighting about FRS. Since FRS is "civilian" and
we are under NTIA, there's been a lot of arguing about the legalities of it.

Part of the argument has been cooled off by CAP's acceptance of the use of
FRS for non-USAF missions and "public service" activites.

The other half has been cooled off by NTIA's authorization of our access
to ISR. Altho still pricy by FRS standards (About $80/piece) CAP units can buy
the ICOM ISR radio and use it without any restrictions for CAP purposes.

Some Wings are allowing individuals to buy thier own and even have a
buy-back program for those who decide to leave the program. It's illegal for
private use.

So the guys I met at NF aren't the only CAP personnel equipped with
and using FRS. Motorola (or someone) must appreciate the business,
because for SAR work they're probably NOT going out and buying the
cheapest radios they can find (or at least I hope they aren't).

I'm not sure if the CO event was with a CAP-owned device or if it was one
borrowed for the purpose. Communications with persons in distress is the only
time a CAP unit can communicate via FRS while on-mission.

The other EmComm group I'm with (other than Erie County ARES/RACES),
which is the public service and emcomm team sponsored by the ham radio
club I am a member of, is also starting to equip with the combined
FRS/GMRS portables that have been hitting the market recently. Our
thinking is quite simply, if it is capable of maintaining comms (with
hams and non-hams) it might come in handy, and at the inexpensive
prices these can be had for, it's worth the investment since you never
know when something like that will come in handy.

Yep.

73

Steve, K4YZ

June 23rd 04, 09:40 PM

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: Radio Amateur KC2HMZ
Date: 6/22/2004 8:30 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

At the Thunder Over Niagara airshow a few years ago, members of one of
the local CAP groups (I believe it was a cadet wing) were using FRS
radios in the performance of their duties at the show (directing
traffic in parking lots, serving as gophers for the adults from the
composite wing at the info booth, and they also had a hamburger and
hotdog stand going). I asked one of them about it, and he told me they
used those little FRS radios a lot, even trained with them for SAR.

CAP has had a lot of in-fighting about FRS. Since FRS is "civilian" and
we are under NTIA, there's been a lot of arguing about the legalities of it.

"Legalities?!?" :-) For an unlicensed radio service?!?

Maybe nursie suggest using MARS.

No, can't do that, nursie say "MARS IS amateur radio!"

:-)

Nursie made an "ace" of himself again.

Temper fry...

LHA / WMD

June 24th 04, 10:08 AM

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 6/23/2004 2:40 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

CAP has had a lot of in-fighting about FRS. Since FRS is "civilian"
and
we are under NTIA, there's been a lot of arguing about the legalities of it.

"Legalities?!?" :-) For an unlicensed radio service?!?

Don't show more ignorance than what you have already shown us, Lennie.

FRS is regulated under Part 95 of the FCC'S Rules and Regulations.

CAP, as a defacto federal agency (as attested to by the Department of
Defense, Department of the Air Force and the Attorney General of the United
States...) is obligated to operate under NTIA.

The criteria for federal agencies operating on FCC regualted radio
services is very narrow. "Routine" communications and communications
conducting the business of the organization are NOT "authorized" uses.
Opertional missions are not "legitimate" uses either, except where
inoperability or coordination with other rescue agencies is critical, are not
authorized either.

These "restrictions" are not solely applicable to CAP. They apply to all
other federal entities also.

Maybe nursie suggest using MARS.

Actually Civil Air Patrol has quite a few stations authorized to operate
in Air Force MARS, Lennie.

No, can't do that, nursie say "MARS IS amateur radio!"

:-)

Nursie made an "ace" of himself again.

No...you did, Lennie. By your lack of practical experience and
operational knowledge.

Putz..

Steve, K4YZ

June 24th 04, 10:49 AM

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: (Steve Robeson K4CAP)
Date: 6/24/2004 3:08 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

The criteria for federal agencies operating on FCC regualted radio
services is very narrow. "Routine" communications and communications
conducting the business of the organization are NOT "authorized" uses.
Opertional missions are not "legitimate" uses either, except where
inoperability or coordination with other rescue agencies is critical, are not
authorized either.

Excuse me...

"Opertational" and "interoperabiltiy".

Steve, K4YZ

June 25th 04, 01:54 AM

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: The Game's Afoot!
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 6/23/2004 2:40 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

CAP has had a lot of in-fighting about FRS. Since FRS is "civilian"
and
we are under NTIA, there's been a lot of arguing about the legalities of
it.

"Legalities?!?" :-) For an unlicensed radio service?!?

Don't show more ignorance than what you have already shown us, Lennie.

FRS is regulated under Part 95 of the FCC'S Rules and Regulations.

...and NO LICENSE is required to use one. :-)

Not in "Part 15" that nursie keeps bringing up...:-)

CAP, as a defacto federal agency (as attested to by the Department of
Defense, Department of the Air Force and the Attorney General of the United
States...) is obligated to operate under NTIA.

Wow! That sounds so OFFICIAL!!!

I'll bet all the CAP aces have cute uniforms with pretty patches
and salute one another on or off the flight line...

The criteria for federal agencies operating on FCC regualted radio
services is very narrow. "Routine" communications and communications
conducting the business of the organization are NOT "authorized" uses.
Opertional missions are not "legitimate" uses either, except where
inoperability or coordination with other rescue agencies is critical, are not
authorized either.

"...where inoperability?!?" :-)

These "restrictions" are not solely applicable to CAP. They apply to all
other federal entities also.

You sound like the JIG...Judicial Inoperability Group.

Lots of word dancing. Doesn't mean much because the tune is
off key.

Maybe nursie suggest using MARS.

Actually Civil Air Patrol has quite a few stations authorized to operate
in Air Force MARS, Lennie.

Nursie say "Sorry Hans, MARS IS amateur radio!"

If MARS be amateur radio, it can't be "Air Force." Air Force be
military.

No, can't do that, nursie say "MARS IS amateur radio!"

:-)

Nursie made an "ace" of himself again.

No...you did, Lennie. By your lack of practical experience and
operational knowledge.

Nursie be stuck on "inoperability" with most things here. :-)

DoD 4650.2 (eff. 21 Nov 03). Ever hear of it?

Putz..

Tsk, tsk, tsk. More "meaningful discourse?"

No, just nursie's dissing and cussing.

Perfect example of the best that ham radio can be?

Temper fry...

LHA / WMD

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