In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts, like those
two who have already pontificated aplenty on How To Do Space
without having any space biz experience. :-)

Translation: Len wants us to shut up. Next step is him calling us "feldwebels"

Of course, Len has no amateur radio experience, but he wants to pontificate to
us about How It Should Be in amateur radio.

But when you ask him how to fight the BPL meance, he has no new ideas at all.

Most of all, note that Len tells us to

"Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts"

Shouldn't we do the same with BPL?

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article ,
(Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes:
Sad to think that the spirit of exploration is just about dead.

I don't think it's dead at all, Mike.

Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong people, Jim.

Maybe!

And it wasn't the spirit of exploration that sent people to the moon. It
was the need to show the Rooskies that we could do better than they could.

Yeah, we know why the pols bankrolled it. But I highly doubt that was
reason number one in the astronauts minds.

Ever read the Tom Wolfe book "The Right Stuff"? Quite illuminating about what
drove the US space program in its early days.

Spirit of exploration is great but bankrolling it with trillions of
taxpayer
dollars is a hard sell when people see the middle class being eroded at
every turn...

...and while we are decrying the expense of doing things, we might
want to look over our shoulder, someone's catching up and will pass us.

Why is that a problem? Or, why can't we do it as a team?

Sad to
think that a bunch of nerds sitting around in a room guiding robots are
what pass for adventurers these days.

Sadder to think that such triumphs of engineering are dismissed so easily.

Heavens no! I love the engineering.

But you describe a highly successful and complex mission as "guiding robots",
and those who made it all possible as a "bunch of nerds".

But there is a world of difference
between the "adventurers" giving a live press conference from the studio
and adventurers being *there*. If that doesn't make a big difference to
you , I guess it is kind of a "Jeep" thing.

I think it's important to realize that the 'adventurers' are simply part of a
much larger team.

I bet if you asked for volunteers to go on a manned Mars mission, 3 years
long, with all sorts of risks and discomforts, the response would be so
overwhelming that you'd need a major budget item just to deal with it.

Yup. Kind of tells me something.

What, exactly?

Even more so for a
lunar mission. Heck, if you asked for volunteers to go to the Moon on a
*permanent* basis (as in "we don't know when or even if there will be space
on a ship to bring you back") there'd be the same flood of volunteers.

Uh huh! I'd be one of 'em.

Exactly. So 'spirit of adventure' isn't dead at all.

Even if the Elser-Mathes Cup stays unclaimed....

Nobody but me seems to know what that award is...

I looked it up. Too bad the Apollo astronauts didn't have a 2 meter
HT.. 8^)

Nice try!

No, what I'm asking is for a lot more - responsibility.

That's what I said, Jim...Joe Average doesn't want to give up
his/her
SUV. To do so would be to take some responsibility for participating in
helping the enviroment.

That's cured by education. And it doesn't stop at the
SUV-as-a-commuting-vehicle - there are lots of other opportunities to
reduce consumption, resulting in eventual energy independence.

What do you think of the energy density of hydrogen and it's effect on
trying to convert to hydrogen vehicles?

That energy density is determined by how the hydrogen is stored. Normally
it's quite low, but when comressed, quite a bit of hydrogen can be stored in
a
small space. Same for methane (natural gas). Trouble is, do you want to
drive
around with a high pressure fuel tank and fuel lines?

One interesting solution is proposed by the same guy who gave us LCDs. His
idea (IIRC) is that the hydrogen is stored chemically in metal hydride
pellets,
which give off hydrogen when warmed by engine waste heat. No high
pressure tank.

The big hydrogen question is: where do we get all the hydrogen from?

My guess is that it would come from electrolysis at hydropower or more
likely Nuc power plants. Dunno if it would be done at the same sites
where desalinization would (*will*) be happening. (welcome to your
future, California!)

That would require a lot of generating capacity. Does it exist, or would new
plants have to be built?

And if the source of hydrogen is electricity, why not simply build electric
cars and use the electricity to charge the batteries? Or electric transit? It
is my understanding that LA's "Blue Line" is an enormous success.

Of course there will be environmental issues, such as what to do with
all the salt. Another biggie is that seawater electrolysis tends to
produce chlorine instead of oxygen:

http://www2.electrochem.org/cgi-bin/...g=204&abs=0710

Hard to argue that chlorine wouldn't be a pollutant. The anti
environmentalists might even agree on that one!

You'd have to desalinate first, then electrolyze, then compress and
regfrigerate. How efficient is all that?

and using seawater is probably pretty important, because....

Who on earth is going to want to give up their fresh water? The left
coast? Hardly likely! They are the ones that are going to be surviving
on electrolysis in the future. East coast? We're so variable here, and
population is eventually simply going to limit fresh water supplies.

What it all comes down to is living in accordance with Nature. That doesn't
mean we must all go back to an agrarian life. What it does mean is that
unsustainable growth and increases in consumption will have dire effects if not
corrected.

Expecting to have lush green lawns and big swimming pools. *and* a huge
population, in a semi-arid region isn't realistic. Etc.

And just as I don't like biofuels, I think that using a substance that
people depend on for their lives like food and water means that some
terrible choices might have to be made in the future.

The trick with biofuel is to use waste products to make it. For example,
there's a turkey processing plant in the midwest that generates about 200
*tons* of turkey waste per *day*. A TDP plant was recently built that allegedly
processes the waste into fuel. What used to be a disposal problem is now an
energy source, according to reports.

Put simply, if it isn't seawater, it isn't going to happen.

The thing to do is to work on the problem from all angles. There's no one magic
solution.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts, like those
two who have already pontificated aplenty on How To Do Space
without having any space biz experience. :-)


Translation: Len wants us to shut up. Next step is him calling us "feldwebels"

I don't know what a "feldwebel" is, but it sounds like a "weeble".

Feldwebels wobble but they don't fall down?



Of course, Len has no amateur radio experience, but he wants to pontificate to
us about How It Should Be in amateur radio.

But when you ask him how to fight the BPL meance, he has no new ideas at all.

Most of all, note that Len tells us to

"Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts"

Shouldn't we do the same with BPL?

nope.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


snippage


My guess is that it would come from electrolysis at hydropower or more
likely Nuc power plants. Dunno if it would be done at the same sites
where desalinization would (*will*) be happening. (welcome to your
future, California!)

Of course there will be environmental issues, such as what to do with
all the salt. Another biggie is that seawater electrolysis tends to
produce chlorine instead of oxygen:

http://www2.electrochem.org/cgi-bin/...g=204&abs=0710

Hard to argue that chlorine wouldn't be a pollutant. The anti
environmentalists might even agree on that one!

and using seawater is probably pretty important, because....

Who on earth is going to want to give up their fresh water? The left
coast?


Those snarled-at "left coast" people designed the first stage
rockets for Apollo. The "left coast" people designed the SSMEs
that push shuttle.

Who's snarling? People need water, and yer going to run out sometime,
unless the water sources decide to keep up with population growth. Since
it's unlikely that the present sources are going to expand, that leaves
desalinization. And in the content of what I'm talking about with Jim,
it isn't likely that the left coast is not going to want to give up
whatever fresh water they have.


Hardly likely! They are the ones that are going to be surviving
on electrolysis in the future.


"Left coast" people are getting electrolysis treatments to remove
unwanted hair? I think not.

Try removing the internal hair and the left-brain, right-brain
thinking when talking about the coastal regions of the UNITED
States of America.

Washington, Oregon, and northern California have plentiful water.


East coast? We're so variable here, and
population is eventually simply going to limit fresh water supplies.


What has that got to do with amateur radio policy?

Note: The FCC does NOT regulate water.

BPL = Broadband over Power Lines, NOT over water lines.


And just as I don't like biofuels, I think that using a substance that
people depend on for their lives like food and water means that some
terrible choices might have to be made in the future.

Put simply, if it isn't seawater, it isn't going to happen.


Are you one of those dihydrogen monoxide extremists?


Water you talking about? 8^)


Take that to the dihydrogen monoxide conspiracy newsgroup.

Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts, like those
two who have already pontificated aplenty on How To Do Space
without having any space biz experience. :-)

Taken under advisement. Now I think I'll go back to discussing this
with Jim. Feel free to jump in the conversation any time if you like.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts, like those
two who have already pontificated aplenty on How To Do Space
without having any space biz experience. :-)

Translation: Len wants us to shut up. Next step is him calling us "feldwebels"

I don't know what a "feldwebel" is, but it sounds like a "weeble".

Feldwebels wobble but they don't fall down?

It's German for the military rank of "corporal". Which is the rank a
certain mid-20th century German chancellor held in the Wehrmacht in
WW1.

Here's the original post:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Len doesn't exactly show good manners or professional behavior when
confronted by a differing opinion or information that proves him to be
mistaken.

For more of the same, Google that word with him as author.

Of course, Len has no amateur radio experience, but he wants to pontificate to us about How It Should Be in amateur radio.

But when you ask him how to fight the BPL

menace

he has no new ideas at all.

Lots of criticism of others on this point but no new ideas.

Most of all, note that Len tells us to

"Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts"

Shouldn't we do the same with BPL?

nope.

but...but Mike, we're just amateurs! With "vacuum tube transmitters"!
Len has told us many, many times how we're nowhere near "state of the
art", how we live by "standards of the 1930s", how we're not really
involved in emergency work, nor technical advancement, etc., etc.,
etc. He's also been consistently critical of ARRL, even to the point
of accusing them of fraud (with absolutely no evidence).

Also seems to think that I am somehow responsible for the posts of
others....

Now he seems to think we should know how to defeat BPL - even though
he doesn't.

Odd. Very odd.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

N2EY wrote:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:


Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts, like those
two who have already pontificated aplenty on How To Do Space
without having any space biz experience. :-)

Translation: Len wants us to shut up. Next step is him calling us "feldwebels"

I don't know what a "feldwebel" is, but it sounds like a "weeble".

Feldwebels wobble but they don't fall down?


It's German for the military rank of "corporal". Which is the rank a
certain mid-20th century German chancellor held in the Wehrmacht in
WW1.

Here's the original post:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Len doesn't exactly show good manners or professional behavior when
confronted by a differing opinion or information that proves him to be
mistaken.

For more of the same, Google that word with him as author.


Of course, Len has no amateur radio experience, but he wants to pontificate to us about How It Should Be in amateur radio.

But when you ask him how to fight the BPL


menace


he has no new ideas at all.


Lots of criticism of others on this point but no new ideas.


Most of all, note that Len tells us to

"Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts"

Shouldn't we do the same with BPL?

nope.


but...but Mike, we're just amateurs! With "vacuum tube transmitters"!
Len has told us many, many times how we're nowhere near "state of the
art",

Oh dear... I'm confused... I like both SOA equipment *and* tube radios.
It's all good!

how we live by "standards of the 1930s",

Whatever that is.

how we're not really
involved in emergency work,

hmm, I am. Plus whatever public service work that comes my way.

nor technical advancement, etc., etc.,
etc. He's also been consistently critical of ARRL, even to the point
of accusing them of fraud (with absolutely no evidence).

Yeah, I've read that. There are always some people that hate the big
dog in any kennel.

Also seems to think that I am somehow responsible for the posts of
others....

Now he seems to think we should know how to defeat BPL - even though
he doesn't.

Odd. Very odd.

High expectations for the 1930's standards people, eh?

- Mike KB3EIA -

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...

This is one weird group of licensed amateur extra regulars!

To say the least. Did you pick up on the new thread where someone
asked if a person works in the industry and has a commercial license,
would he be welcomed at a ham radio club meeting?

Yes. What wasn't mentioned was the demand that non-amateur
radio hobbyists MUST drink from different fountains and use the
"special" restrooms. :-)

Welp, if they were available, I'd use them too. Some kind of
fanatical rabid love of code develops after drinking from the Chalice
of Morse.

An epiphany strikes?

If it strikes the Yell Yell Marine, he's got the right to use lethal
force.

Not quite the epiphany I had in mind.

He would perceive it that way. If he didn't, he'd have to think
something nice about it, and since you made the suggestion...

According to Yell Yell, nobody, absolutely NO ONE can possibly
know a damn thing about amateur radio without passing a little
test, receiving the nice piece of paper with a fancy border (suitable
for framing), and then coming on like a Dill Instructor with a mouth
full of pickle.

Even guys without any "service time" get to claim "real military
experience" because they passed the amateur test.

Apparently, one gets a Full Knowledge (or something like that) on
receiving that call sign. Perhaps a subtle divine voice from on high
that imparts all the smarts on hum raddio to the fully licensed?

Just like Edgar Casey.

Poor guy can't separate the reality from his murine fantasy of the
"amateur corps."

"Seven Hostile Dits"

"The chalice with the keyer has the brew that is true,
the chalice with the mike has the brew that is peew!"

- from the motion picture "The Morse Jester" starring Danny Kode.

Danny Kode was superb. Alas, they are making color movies today.

Morse is colorless.

And odorless. It requires a detector.

It fits. Morse is 160 years old. Didn't even
have motion pictures back in 1844.

But, according to Yell Yell and his kin, ALL amateurs MUST know
morse to gain "the true knowledge" on passing the Test. For a hobby
activity.

It's like the base hobby shop. You have to get signed off on -all- of
the equipment or they won't let you in. All except for the phone
equipment, the rtty equipment, the sstv equipment, the psk31
equipment, the satellite equipment, the...

There's lots of ANGER floating around the newsgripe...yelling and
yelling at those who didn't do EXACTLY like the Kodies did or
embrace "the service" like it was a murine corps.

And all that spittle with all that yelling.

They care more about their "honor" in telling fibs of their
exploits
then get totally pished at others who have had truthful
experience beyond the limitations of Part 97. Fantasyland at
times! :-)

It's all just a matter of ego.

NO!? Say it isn't so... :-)

Yup. Sad but true.

I am disheartened. snif :-)

BPL-PLC will mean an END to low-level signal reception on HF and
low VHF in urban areas but the licensed amateur extras in here
just want to FIGHT with anyone who challenges their mighty words.

Not to worry. Morse always gets thru.

Right! That's why all the other radio services rely on morse! :-)

They may have to. And amateur radio operators will lead the way to
salvation.

The Army? ["it's a Service!!!" :-) ]

W1AW will be on the AM boradcast band, but in CW. Everyone will be
standing in line to have a bfo installed in their
Pioneer/Kenwood/Panasonic car stereos.

Riiiiiight. :-)

No, really. Edgar Casey predicted it.

They won't DO anything against the already-here problem of HF
pollution but they want to destroy anyone not believeing in their
fantasies of the religion of St. Hiram and the League-ionaires.

Just notice who's remaining in this sorry group.

Yes. Weiner von Brawn and his sidekick in PA. :-)

Wheiner (can be pronounced either "wee-ner" or "why-ner") keeps trying
to make friends.

Is THAT what the putzmacher is trying to do?!?!?

In a dysfunctional way. His only means.

There's at least two putzmachers in here. May the fnortz be with
them and their attempts at purity and ethnic cleansing.

Actuarial tables...

Isn't all so much fun to have a private "ham" chat room to talk all
about the space program, national economics, traveling salesmen,
the educational system, and other assorted "ham interest" items?

And arguing with CBers. They impress people wherever they go. If
they don't immediately get the attention they think they deserve, they
thump their chests a few times to make their "achievements" more
visible. I really do wish the FCC would issue some kind of combat
infantry badge to these guys.

It's called "The Blue Riffle." Comes from riffling through lots of QST
ads and product reviews, then portraying themselves as "expert"
radio heroes.

Ging once, going twice...

:-)

Even more bizarre is the on-going "discussion" between two extras
who have NO experience in space travel talking all about Big
Issues
in Space...none of which concerns amateur radio policy! :-)

They've managed to combine "Missiles of October," and "October Sky."
Maybe one day they'll launch an Estes rocket and attain the altitude
of 1,200' AGL.

If either one cancels their Popular Science subscription, we won't
know the answers to all those profound questions of "ham interest"
policy problems.

Don't forget Popular Mechanics, and Popular Psychology. Ooops.
Scratch teh second one.

I think it's old NASA brochures and hand-outs of the 70s and 80s.
Those don't cost anything from a dump.

Like those old Air Force pubs Yell Yell was claiming I got my military
experience from. He probably reads them at every CAP meeting.

Yell Yell was a Murine. That sums it up.

All else are inferior...unless the else are code-tested extras. :-)

Brothers in Ditz and Duhs.

Well, time to celebrate the 4th coming up...and to worship at the
Church of St. Hiram who invented radio and the vacuum tube, etc.
:-)

Len

Never knew the man, but he is legend.

...celebrated in song and story forever, the founder of the Service.
A real firecracker that put sparklers in the eyes of all worshippers.
[shipping extra cost]

:-)



Kind of like the followers of Rev. Moon.

Oh, NO! Not "mooning" again! :-)

Sigmund Fraud will start making another libelous AOL Home Page
shouting and hollering all about "naked men" and "pornographic
images!!!" And, his favorite pejorative, "Liars!!!" :-)



That goes hand in hand with the code problem, except without the
peanut butter sandwiches.

"Peanut butter sandwiches?!?" :-)

I don't think Hiram required them to eat peanut butter sandwiches like
the Rev. Moon does.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

N2EY wrote:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

Leave the space business stuff to the industry experts, like those
two who have already pontificated aplenty on How To Do Space
without having any space biz experience. :-)

Translation: Len wants us to shut up. Next step is him calling us
"feldwebels"

I don't know what a "feldwebel" is, but it sounds like a "weeble".

Feldwebels wobble but they don't fall down?

It's German for the military rank of "corporal". Which is the rank a
certain mid-20th century German chancellor held in the Wehrmacht in
WW1.

Here's the original post:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...001553%40mb-m1
8.aol.com&output=gplain

oh - btw, while on the space exploration thing...

I have no doubt that it's technically feasible to go back to the Moon,
establish a base there, and even to go to Mars. I have high cofidence that all
of the technical problems could be solved. It's just very expensive.

The problem isn't one of engineering - it's one of public policy. And such
problems are *not* to be left up to those "in the business".

Here's one way to go to Mars:

First, you need a lowcost method of getting things into earth orbit. The
"unmanned cargo space shuttle" idea is one way. Mass production of
purpose-designed dockets is another.

Second, a couple of unmanned supply ships are assembled in earth orbit. They're
unmanned because it's simpler to do it that way. There are a couple of them in
case one or two don;t make the journey intact.

Third, as soon as the supply ships are ready, they are launched towards Mars.
It may take them years to get there but it's of no consequence because they are
unmanned.

Fourth, a duo or trio of manned Mars ships are assembled in earth orbit.
There's more than one of them in case trouble develops. These ships carry only
people and the essential supplies for the trip. The landers and Mars surface
equipment are on the supply ships. This is done to reduce the weight of the
manned ships. They're "hot rods" in that they are designed primarily for speed.
They're launched towards Mars at the optimum time for a minimum-time trip. They
go to Mars, rendezvous with the supply ships and then the landers on the supply
ships go down to the Martian surface. When the surface mission is done, the
astronauts get back in the manned ships and come home.

I think all of the technical problems could be solved but the cost would be -
astronomical.

but...but Mike, we're just amateurs! With "vacuum tube transmitters"!
Len has told us many, many times how we're nowhere near "state of the
art",

Oh dear... I'm confused... I like both SOA equipment *and* tube radios.
It's all good!

I have a confession to make....I actually have a vacuum tube transmitter...and
what's worse - I still use the thing, and even worse....I *enjoy* it...

how we live by "standards of the 1930s",

Whatever that is.

It means actually using Morse Code on the air, and thinking it's useful.

how we're not really
involved in emergency work,

hmm, I am. Plus whatever public service work that comes my way.

nor technical advancement, etc., etc.,
etc. He's also been consistently critical of ARRL, even to the point
of accusing them of fraud (with absolutely no evidence).

Yeah, I've read that. There are always some people that hate the big
dog in any kennel.

There are some who think we don't need a strong national organization at all.

Also seems to think that I am somehow responsible for the posts of
others....

Now he seems to think we should know how to defeat BPL - even though
he doesn't.

Odd. Very odd.

High expectations for the 1930's standards people, eh?

Yep.

73 de Jim, N2EY

William wrote:


Just like Edgar Casey.

No, really. Edgar Casey predicted it.

Edgar Cayce.

I don't think Hiram required them to eat peanut butter sandwiches like
the Rev. Moon does.

No peanut butter, only Rev. Moon Pies.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote in message ...
William wrote:


Just like Edgar Casey.

No, really. Edgar Casey predicted it.

Edgar Cayce.

I don't think Hiram required them to eat peanut butter sandwiches like
the Rev. Moon does.

No peanut butter, only Rev. Moon Pies.

Dave K8MN

Eight years of usenet therapy and Dave develops a sense of humor!

Way to go, Dave