Hello, Dan

True enough, but the fact is that the problem is the screwball folks that
get their jollies writing the darn things in the first place.

Yes, I.E. is a major problem - mostly because it is popular and your
comparison with cars and trucks makes sense.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm having fits getting my dial-up to work
properly and still have the DSL.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

"Dan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:25:36 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:

If everyone changed to Linux, you can bet the virus and worm writers
would
be writing most of the stuff for Unix systems.

Indeed. This whole notion of "everyone should switch so all of these
problems go away" is naieve at best, plain stupid at worst.

It's like looking at stats for fuel usage of passenger cars and
trucks, noting that cars make up most of the usage of gas, and trucks
use a small percentage, then saying "Gee, we should all start driving
trucks to save gas"!

Hell-o!

Dan

Grundig S800, S650, S700, YB400, YB550PE
Degen DE1102, Kaito KA1102
Drake R8, Radio Shack DX-440
E. H. Scott 23 tube Imperial Allwave in Tasman cabinet (1936)


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/28/04

Jim Hampton wrote:
Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws. The
reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

The so called integration that IE and Outlook have with the operating
system makes for more security flaws than other systems. All the bad
guys have to have is access to the machine - Internet Explorer - then
access to the OS - that integration, through either a door put in there
purposely or inadvertently, and there you have it. It isn't a good
system security wise. And we should demand more. The typical PC user
apparently doesn't have very high expectations.


Other systems have the occasional flaw, just not so darn many of them.


BUT!


The real disservice that computer geeks have foisted on the world is
the idea of "one platform, one OS".

The PC world is going to treat us to the computer equivalent of the
Irish Potato Famine one of these days. We are inbred, we are
monoculture. We all have the same vulnerabilities.

What we need is machines that are enough different that what takes one
out does not take all the others out. We also need operators that are
not so far into the woods that they can't see the trees.



*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated).

I need that on my PC's. My Mac doesn't.


Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet as
you browse.

I need that on my PC's for sure.


I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups (attempted
incoming spyware).

Oh yes. It is amazing the source of some of the spyware.


Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking daily
(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming out
almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

Here is another problem though. These updates not only protect your
computer by patching security holes, they sometimes protect your
computer by causing it to cease operating. (a computer that doesn't work
catches no virii) On my PC, I will usually wait a few days in order to
hear what problems the "updates" are causing.


If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus here and there despite
my running a proxy server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's all
the time.

I use both PC's and Macs extensively, so I feel I can comment
knowledgeably. Using a PC is getting to be operations under siege. What
the PC users consider to be normal operations is not what normal
operations should be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the work I
need to do without all the fuss and muss. (p.s. - you should see all the
cool ham radio software that is out for OSX!)

And my final note is that you have done just what the original poster
noted in his post. (albeit his more crudely) That is to blame it on the
user. That doesn't flush. Don't blame the victim. We can't expect all
users to be IT professionals or even highly competent.

If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Jim Hampton wrote:
"Dr. Anton T. Squeegee" wrote in message
...

In article , johnson38
says...

snippety

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

So... Instead of wasting energy cussing at 'them,' why not HELP
someone, in a nice way, to migrate AWAY from IE and into something like
Opera or Firefox?

Oh, I forgot... It's easier and quicker to simply swear at someone
than it is to do something constructive.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"


Yes. Opera. Foxfire. I think I just got an alert last week that Foxfire
has been found to have a security hole for which there is no known fix (as
of yet). Opera? It has holes. You can subscribe to these government
alerts and see for yourself.

BTW, we point fingers at browsers .... uh ... do you know that Real Player
has problems? Didn't think so. How about file sharing programs? Hehehe
HAR DE HAR HAR.

You use Real Player? Just using it is a security issue.


The list is virtually endless. Various instant messaging programs. Some
stuff that you wouldn't think could even cause a security problem.

Instant messaging services is a leading source of spyware. Don't use it.


I fixed a PC a few weeks ago. Some alleged tech "fixed" the computer.
Returned it sans anti-virus and firewall. Also didn't do updates. It got
hijacked. It took me quite a bit of effort which included removing spyware,
getting a firewall in place, anti-virus in place, and an on-line scan to
remove the last pieces of that nasty thing. I had even been locked out of
regedit! Finally, everything was working except I couldn't get the home
page back. Since I could get into regedit by this time, I simply edited the
registry and it is finally working fine. The problem, in this case, wasn't
with Microsoft or the users. It was a lazy tech that didn't want to do the
whole job.

Blaming the victim again, Jim. Like blaming a sexual assault victim
because she was pretty and dressed nice.


You seem to accept the flaws as inevitable and a normal part of
operating. you would never accept a car that has as many flaws as a
typical PC OS.

Browsers and mail readers should never never ever be integrated with
OS's. Ports should be inaccessible unless you tell it to be accessible.
Address books should be encrypted (although there is a chicken and egg
thing going on in that case) The list goes on and on.

Demand competent software!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Brenda Ann Dyer wrote:
"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well. Apple is probably the only one with little or no viruses being
written to attack it as it has a small presence. Unix (Linux) has holes.
As far as browsers, Netscape, Opera, you name it, have security flaws.

The

reason O.E. is mentioned so much as it has a large following and is,
therefore, an ideal target for worm/virus writers.

*Everyone* needs good antivirus software (updated *daily*) on their system
as well as a good firewall (also updated). Everyone also needs a good
anti-spyware running on their system - and it is also a good idea to have
one that runs in background and blocks incoming spyware off the internet

as

you browse. I'm seeing quite a bit of blocking from Yahoo Groups

(attempted

incoming spyware).

Last, but most to the point of your post, everyone should be checking

daily

(whether automatically or manually) for updates to their operating system
and browser. These are constantly brought out and if you bother to check
(why don't I think you are well informed?), you will find patches coming

out

almost constantly for many different browsers and operating systems.

If you don't do this, you will eventually get bit regardless of what
operating system you use.





Three cheers for Mr. Hampton. Spear a few elitists. I know for a fact
that *nix systems are every bit as vulnerable as Windoze systems, since my
spouse does computer repairs for the US military, and almost everything they
use is a *nix based system. They have problems with hackers on a regular
basis, even through their substantial firewalls.

Point being, the only way you can begin to be sure you are protected is to
have a good firewall and A/V, and keep them running and up to date. The only
times I have EVER had problems with unauthorized ingress to my system have
been when both my firewall and A/V have been down (after a hardware failure
usually)...


Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -

Chris wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:47:42 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Chris,

You are the one who is displaying ignorance. There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as

snip

99% of all zombied machines were zombied through IE and OE security
holes - many of them YET TO BE FIXED BY MICROSOFT! And you worry
about obscure holes elsewhere?

Yup. Blame the victim and shift the argument. The fact is that the Unix
machines and the obscure browsers are *not* the machines that fill up my
mailbox with virus laden attachments. The infected machines are running
the microsoft stuff. Game set match.

And the expectation that all PC users attached to the net should have
to become minor IT experts is ludicrous. blaming the victim again.

Demand competently written software!

rest snipped

- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:
"Chris" wrote



Truly, that's a ****head response.



For more response, point your non-IE browser to
http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy


He doesn't express himself all that well....



but his basic premise is spot-on!


- mike KB3EIA -

Hello, Dan

Oh yeah .... I've gotten a lot of pings from colleges. Must be those kids
don't have anything better to do either


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

"Dan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 04:28:59 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote:

Hello, Dan

True enough, but the fact is that the problem is the screwball folks that
get their jollies writing the darn things in the first place.

Yes, I.E. is a major problem - mostly because it is popular and your
comparison with cars and trucks makes sense.

The people who get off on seeing their "handiwork" in the news would
certainly switch to Linux or OS X or whatever we all "switch" to. If
the numbers were there, these systems would already have this crap.

Windows/IE/OE gets the viruses because Windows/IE/OE has the users.
It's that simple.

Yet, I don't get *any* of this crap on my Windows systems, and I have
several. It's all down to common sense. I don't post here with my
real name and email address (check my headers!), I keep my systems
up-to-date, and I have a good firewall running. I get scanned,
pinged, poked and probed all the time, but nothing gets thru.

Dan

Grundig S800, S650, S700, YB400, YB550PE
Degen DE1102, Kaito KA1102
Drake R8, Radio Shack DX-440
E. H. Scott 23 tube Imperial Allwave in Tasman cabinet (1936)


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 6/27/04

Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: CERT says to stop using IE, but will the **** heads listen?
From: "Jim Hampton"
Date: 6/27/2004 10:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


There are constant holes and
security problems with not only many browsers, but operating systems as
well.


I can't help but wonder if Microsoft and the others don't engineer these
things in, just so they can "come to the rescue" with a patch.

Munchausen's By Proxy Server...?!?!

(ducking ! ! !)



HOWL!!!!! Good one, Steve!

Some holes probably were there on purpose. Not all though. Don't
underestimate poor programming! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

Groom Lake wrote:
In posted on Mon, 28 Jun 2004
17:25:36 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:


The fact remains that Internet
Explorer, Outlook, and Outlook Express are popular, thus the huge number of
viruses written for them - not that they are more or less secure than other
browsers.


That's not entirely correct;
The fact that they are immensely more insecure, coupled with their
popularity makes them such an irresistible target of exploitation.

100 percent correct. That OS/Broswer/Mail integration is a doing half
the work for the bad guys.


If one keeps a firewall in place, anti-virus in place,
anti-spyware in place, updates them daily, and *uses* them properly, one is
as protected as one can be.

Love my dual processor G5!!....8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Robert Casey wrote:
Chris wrote a troll.

I use Nutscrape myself..... :-)



I use it on my PC's for Browser, mail and newsgroups. A good choice for
some better security.


- Mike KB3EIA -