"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.


Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.


(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)


I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.
The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).


If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.


Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

Stewart

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:10:15 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

Fred Garvin wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:38:34 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:



If the manufacturers produce software that has gaping security flaws,
it is their fault, not mine.



Mike, it's your fault for CONTINUING TO USE IT.

If you've bought 2 Monkeytime wrenches and the handles both snapped and
broke will you go out and buy ANOTHER Monkeytime wrench????


I got taken out of context there, Fred. I was responding to the blame
the victim comments. I do use Microsoft's OS's from XP to Win95 (Yet!)
Mostly because it's part of my job. But I don't use the triumvirate. I
only use the OS. If you are using IE and Outlook in addition to the OS,
then you're asking for trouble.


I apologize then. Sorry about that.

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote:

I get bit regardless. My Norton's finds a virus
here and there despite my running a proxy
server, 2 firewalls, and updating the virus def's
all the time.



Then you must be involved in a high-risk activity (such as downloading
illegal software from questionable sources), because I have not seen any of
that on my computers.

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but no, I don't. BTW, the computer
doesn't get infected, but Norton's isolates the file, and I have to
manually delete it.



(snip) I use both PC's and Macs extensively,
so I feel I can comment knowledgeably. Using
a PC is getting to be operations under siege.
What the PC users consider to be normal
operations is not what normal operations should
be. Meanwhile, I just use my Mac and do the
work I need to do without all the fuss and muss.
(p.s. - you should see all the cool ham radio
software that is out for OSX!)



I also use both extensively and feel you're not being entirely forthright.

Yup, that's why places have entire staffs of PC jockeys that work full
time to beat the things into submission. We who own Macs, at least where
I work, have to maintain their own computers. And at least where I work,
all the Mac users are artists, not computer jocks (with the exception of me)


The Mac is certainly not without its own "fuss and muss." The sheer volume
of problem-related questions in the Mac newsgroups is clear testament to
that. And the amount and quality of radio related software for a
Windows-based computer dwarfs that available for the Macintosh (the same
with most any catagory of software, or hardware).

Yup, but I wanna run what I need to do my job and hobby. I could care
less about the other apps. Sometimes I think PCphiles would insist on
only one type of car for the entire world with that mindset.

I do agree that there are more ham apps on PC, which is a big reason
why I have one at home. I'm likely to pick up an Imac at salvage to try
out the new Mac Ham apps tho'

If the manufacturers produce software that has
gaping security flaws, it is their fault, not mine.



Yet my experience suggests users are a large part of the problem -
everything from engaging in high-risk activities to not maintaining, and
even by-passing, the installed security features. I manage the IT department
at a local college. I cannot even count how many computers I've seen with
virus problems that also have illegally obtained software installed and
security features disabled to allow the download of that software.

I won't deny that under the current state of affairs, people should
practice safe computing. And if a person is running illegal software
their ass should be busted.

My point is that the crap software is so insecure that the bad
situation comes about anyhow.

Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been wondering something for a
while. Isn't it possible to find these infected devils and isolate them
somehow? Might be a naive question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ...

Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -


Mike,

My only point is that other software *also* has holes. The only reason
Internet Explorer has been singled out is that it is so popular and
widespread. Heck, there may be some folks with the old TRS-80 model 1 with
a modem and bulletin board software. I'd bet there are no viruses written
for it. I wonder why ... LOL.

I.E. is a big and tempting target, but not any more or less buggy than other
browsers (or, as I mentioned, Windoze vs other systems). Other operating
systems may be more stable (such as Linux), but have security problems as
well.

Best regards from Rochester, NY
Jim



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.713 / Virus Database: 469 - Release Date: 6/30/04

Chris wrote:

Every time another IE hole is discovered, the **** heads say things
like "It isn't the browser; it's the user," and then they go right on
using IE. Now the Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT) has joined
the chorus of people which includes places like TechTV and has said
that IE is just plain insecure. See

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun25.html,

and be sure to read all of the way to the bottom of the article.

It's not that I care about the **** heads themselves, it's that they
allow themselves to be compromised, and then the rest of us have to
pay for it in some way.

Are you getting too much spam? Blame the infected **** heads whose
computers are acting as spam relays.

Is your ISP putting restrictions on email that really hurt? Blame the
infected **** heads again for overloading your ISP's servers or
networks.

So I just want to say "**** you!" to the ignorant IE and OE users who
defend their use of that hole-ridden, abominable software beyond
reason. YOU are one of the major problems with today's Internet.

Sometimes people don't have a choice. For example, my employer will allow
only IE on company computers. I had put Mozilla on my company PC and got my
hands slapped. Sometimes I use OE to sendmail from my laptop but never use
it to receive mail. Most of the time I use Linux on my personal computers.


The real problems are that we have a lot of non-technical people using the
Internet that obviously don't know what they are doing and they don't think
that Internet security is their responsibility. Another problem is all the
crappy program code that is being written without any regard to providing
security to prevent such things as buffer overflow exploits of their code.
As for tracking down the spammers and black hat hackers, good luck.
Ultimately, though, we'll only be able to reduce the amount of security
problems and we'll never be able to eliminate them. There's just too many
jerks out there that don't have anything better to do with their time.

Jim Hampton wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ...

Point is, you are willing to accept software that has the problems in
the first place. Demand competently written software.

- mike -



Mike,

My only point is that other software *also* has holes. The only reason
Internet Explorer has been singled out is that it is so popular and
widespread. Heck, there may be some folks with the old TRS-80 model 1 with
a modem and bulletin board software. I'd bet there are no viruses written
for it. I wonder why ... LOL.

I.E. is a big and tempting target, but not any more or less buggy than other
browsers (or, as I mentioned, Windoze vs other systems). Other operating
systems may be more stable (such as Linux), but have security problems as
well.

Hey Jim. I think IE is not only a big target, it is an easy one too.
It's integration with the OS looks good on the surface but is a fatal flaw.

I don't think I can convince too many people of that tho', as the
arguments are getting redundant at this point. If you wish, use IE and
Outlook, just be sure to never ever miss an update, and hope the update
works for you. I'll do a different path.

So I'll just have to say "Practice safe computing, in whatever form you
may wish, and all be careful, eh"?


- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote:

Thanks for the accusation, Dwight, but
no, I don't. BTW, the computer doesn't
get infected, but Norton's isolates the
file, and I have to manually delete it.


It wasn't an accusation, Mike. I was simply pointing out that some
activities more risky than others (and gave an example). If you're not
comfortable with that example, we could use email as another (for example,
no matter how many times you warn people not to, some just can't seem to
resist opening those questionable files).


Yup, that's why places have entire staffs
of PC jockeys that work full time to beat
the things into submission. We who own
Macs, at least where I work, have to
maintain their own computers. And at least
where I work, all the Mac users are artists,
not computer jocks (with the exception of
me)


There is an entire staff because there are a lot of computers, not a
single computer you're maintaining yourself. We have a number of Macs at the
local college and I see many of the same types of problems - missing or
damaged drivers, questionable software installed, tampering with things that
should be left alone, and so on. Some are downright silly. For example,
there isn't a week that goes by that we don't see a computer problem traced
to someone dragging things out of the System folder.


(snip) Sometimes I think PCphiles would
insist on only one type of car for the entire
world with that mindset.


You're assuming I'm a "PCphile." I purchased my first Apple in 1981 and
first Mac in 1986. Even though I used other computers, the Mac was my main
focus for many years. I recently switched focus to Windows, but still own
two PowerBooks to allow me to keep up with events in that platform. The
college is slowly getting rid of the Macs, but a number of teachers still
use them (including my wife).


Glad I go an IT pro here, as I have been
wondering something for a while. Isn't it
possible to find these infected devils and
isolate them somehow? Might be a naive
question, but I'm not an IT person, just a
program jock.


Since they're very unpredictable, it's not really that easy on an active
computer. Most large IT departments have computers sat aside to solely watch
how these things work and what exactly they do. That information is then
used to develop tactics to deal with threats to other computers. The
information is also widely shared, and can usually be found on the internet
very shortly after a new threat is discovered. Indeed, by the time we see
the results of a new virus or whatever, information about it is usually
already available.

Dwight Stewart