In article et, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

When I was preparing for the old Extra test (pre-April 2000) all I did was
keep retaking the QRZ.COM practice tests until I consistently got 90%
or better. I actually started getting concictently at 100%.

You "studied the test" - literally! Which is certainly effective, and legal.

But do you think you learned as much as if you didn't have the exact Q&A
available?

This isn't a criticism of you or Mike or anyone who takes the tests today. It's
just a point about the testing methods used. Not that they're going to change
any time soon.

Continued until I scored 100 percent pretty consistently.

And the actual test was a breeze, right?

Wasn't too bad.

Of course you passed.

When I took the actual test, I thinkI completed it in less
than 10 minutes and handed it in.

I'm not surprised! It's only 50 questions anyway!

Once in a while I take an online practice test just for grins. Usually I don't
use scratch paper or a calculator, just to make it more of a sporting course.
Ten minutes is about my speed, too, unless I push it.

What you did was to 'study the test'. Which isn't "wrong" or illegal,
despite
what some may rant about it. You did what worked for you, within the
rules.

Here's the thing, Jim. I can still remember the right answers. So did I
learn the material?

Maybe. If you were given a new exam on the same material that used
completely
different questions and answers, could you pass it? If so, then you know
the material.

Given the subject material at the time and my lack of any specific
use of much of that material since, I'm not sure how I'd do. Answers to
questions
on space operations (FCC notification intervals), licensing and VE testing
rules, etc. don't stay with most people unless they have reason to
need that knowledge.

I think that depends on the person. Some folks can, others can't, etc.

Additionally, rules and regs can and do change
as we all know...so band edges, especially mode restrictions within a
specific band (e.g. novice sub-bands) change over time.

Yes - and that's one reason to take online practice tests.

In fact, it could be argued that having a published Q&A and online practice
tests makes it *easier* for *already licensed* hams to keep up with the
changes.

*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.

Not really. I saw a electrician licensing test book with question pool
recently. Lives depend on the electrician doing safe and proper work.
and they are depending on the Electrician knowing.

But someone cannot become a licensed electrician by written tests
alone. There
are extensive practical tests and experience requirements as well, and
several
levels of licensing. IIRC, here in PA it takes 9000 hours of documented
work
experience under the supervision of a licensed electrician to be
licensed at the highest level.

Sure, but if you flunk the test, question pool and all, then you
aren't an electrician. 9000 hours of training aside.

Point is, if you pass the test but don;t have the 9000 hours you aren't an
electrician either.

True, but No similar "time in grade" applies to ham licensing.

It's not just time in grade but actual supervised work experience. Back in the
old days of a 2 year wait for Extra, a ham could just toss the General license
in a drawer and do nothing for 2 years, yet the "experience" would still count.

We aren't likely to see such experience requirements reinstated either, IMHO.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Robert Casey wrote in message ...


You're an OF, Len. In Fact, you're currently the O'est F known to be
posting here. You're a one-man ilk. You'll never be a Great Guru in
amateur radio as you are in no way involved in amateur radio. I don't
think anyone would seek you out as a single source of info on amateur
radio.

Dave K8MN

Len, just get the damm license. It ain't that hard. Hell even 5wpm.
I did it and I'm no good at sort of "motor skill" kind of thing.
Then get on the air some. Then you can speak with some creditability
here and other forums on ham radio.

Won't matter. When Len hits 20 years in the amateur service, these
guys will have 50. Len will still be "wet behind the ears." The
license just doesn't matter with these guys - it's merely their excuse
to act like idiots.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Well, there wasn't much point in going through the motions unless I was
actually going to learn something. Just the way I'm put together.

Yep. Same here.

Maybe. If you were given a new exam on the same material that used
completely
different questions and answers, could you pass it? If so, then you know
the material.

Yup, I could.

Then you really know the mateiral, not just the test.

But someone cannot become a licensed electrician by written tests alone.
There
are extensive practical tests and experience requirements as well, and
several
levels of licensing. IIRC, here in PA it takes 9000 hours of documented
work
experience under the supervision of a licensed electrician to be licensed
at
the highest level.

Sure, but if you flunk the test, question pool and all, then you
aren't an electrician. 9000 hours of training aside.

Point is, if you pass the test but don;t have the 9000 hours you aren't an
electrician either.

Equal results, eh?

Equal requirements.

Nice lass. Can you believe I had to look her up on the web?

You must not pay attention to the magazine racks in the supermarket
checkout line...

Ahh, there it is. I probably go in a grocery store about once every two
years

For me two weeks away from a grocery store is a long long time. Anybody sez men
can't chop never saw me in action.

Big problem is the name. I keep thinking of the old story of "Heidi",
although the real one bears no resemblance!!

She was in a few minor movies, a guest on "Just Shoot Me" and did a charity
version of "Who Wants To Be a Millionaire".

I also claim dibs on Molly Sims...

I can understand that. Just don't get too greedy here! 8^)

I go for quality not quantity.

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: Robert Casey
Date: 7/18/2004 11:37 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:




You're an OF, Len. In Fact, you're currently the O'est F known to be
posting here. You're a one-man ilk. You'll never be a Great Guru in
amateur radio as you are in no way involved in amateur radio. I don't
think anyone would seek you out as a single source of info on amateur
radio.

Dave K8MN

Len, just get the damm license. It ain't that hard. Hell even 5wpm.
I did it and I'm no good at sort of "motor skill" kind of thing.
Then get on the air some. Then you can speak with some creditability
here and other forums on ham radio.

Robert, he doesn't WANT the credibility.

He enjoys self-humiliation. Also, "get(ting) the !@#$ license" would mean
that he'd have to admit that he's just a mere mortal like all the rest of us,
and he could never live with that. He's wasted his life on self grandizing
himself so much, that anything else might make him look like a "real guy".

No...Lennie will never "get the !@#$ license". He just doesn't have the
character or class to do it.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/19/2004 6:04 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Won't matter. When Len hits 20 years in the amateur service, these
guys will have 50. Len will still be "wet behind the ears." The
license just doesn't matter with these guys - it's merely their excuse
to act like idiots.

More excuses.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/19/2004 6:04 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Won't matter. When Len hits 20 years in the amateur service, these
guys will have 50. Len will still be "wet behind the ears." The
license just doesn't matter with these guys - it's merely their excuse
to act like idiots.

You and Lennie are the masters of your own fates. As long as you keep
making stupid, obvioulsy flawed, misleading or mistruthful posts, there will be
people who will make a point of pointing it out to you and everyone else.

Both of you tell tales, make assinine accusations and take liberties with
civility that any gradeschooler can see through, THEN you get indignant when
your own words and actions get fed back to you.

Sucks to BE you, Brain.

Before you take liberties with whom YOU call "idiots", you had better
review some of your own newsgroup misadventures. I wouldn't want them on my
track record...It's quite humiliating.

Care to reprise the baby-babble routine again...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

N2EY wrote:
In article et, "Bill Sohl"
writes:


When I was preparing for the old Extra test (pre-April 2000) all I did was
keep retaking the QRZ.COM practice tests until I consistently got 90%
or better. I actually started getting concictently at 100%.


You "studied the test" - literally! Which is certainly effective, and legal.

But do you think you learned as much as if you didn't have the exact Q&A
available?

A different point altogether, Jim! A person will learn MUCH more by
reading good reference material. Just as an example from the Question
pool vs boo larnin' thread I just started, I learned that Fessenden
received an optical interrupter made by a fellow named Brashear. Now
there is a piece of synchronicity! Brashear was a telescope maker of
great renown at that time. I didn't see that tidbit in any of the
history of telescopes.

But that isn't what they are trying to teach us in electronics. somone
somwhere has to decide what question to ask on the test.


This isn't a criticism of you or Mike or anyone who takes the tests today. It's
just a point about the testing methods used. Not that they're going to change
any time soon.

I certainly didn't take it as such. Especially since I take the two as
a functional equivalent! 8^)


Continued until I scored 100 percent pretty consistently.

And the actual test was a breeze, right?

Wasn't too bad.


Of course you passed.

When I took the actual test, I thinkI completed it in less
than 10 minutes and handed it in.


I'm not surprised! It's only 50 questions anyway!

Once in a while I take an online practice test just for grins. Usually I don't
use scratch paper or a calculator, just to make it more of a sporting course.
Ten minutes is about my speed, too, unless I push it.

Sure - they are kind of fun, and a good way to keep up with some of the
dryer details of regulation. The more enjoyable stuff masks the boring
stuff.



What you did was to 'study the test'. Which isn't "wrong" or illegal,
despite
what some may rant about it. You did what worked for you, within the

rules.

Here's the thing, Jim. I can still remember the right answers. So did I
learn the material?

Maybe. If you were given a new exam on the same material that used
completely
different questions and answers, could you pass it? If so, then you know
the material.

Given the subject material at the time and my lack of any specific
use of much of that material since, I'm not sure how I'd do. Answers to
questions
on space operations (FCC notification intervals), licensing and VE testing
rules, etc. don't stay with most people unless they have reason to
need that knowledge.


I think that depends on the person. Some folks can, others can't, etc.


Additionally, rules and regs can and do change
as we all know...so band edges, especially mode restrictions within a
specific band (e.g. novice sub-bands) change over time.


Yes - and that's one reason to take online practice tests.

In fact, it could be argued that having a published Q&A and online practice
tests makes it *easier* for *already licensed* hams to keep up with the
changes.


*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.


Not really. I saw a electrician licensing test book with question pool
recently. Lives depend on the electrician doing safe and proper work.
and they are depending on the Electrician knowing.

But someone cannot become a licensed electrician by written tests
alone. There
are extensive practical tests and experience requirements as well, and
several
levels of licensing. IIRC, here in PA it takes 9000 hours of documented
work
experience under the supervision of a licensed electrician to be
licensed at the highest level.

Sure, but if you flunk the test, question pool and all, then you
aren't an electrician. 9000 hours of training aside.


Point is, if you pass the test but don;t have the 9000 hours you aren't an
electrician either.

True, but No similar "time in grade" applies to ham licensing.


It's not just time in grade but actual supervised work experience. Back in the
old days of a 2 year wait for Extra, a ham could just toss the General license
in a drawer and do nothing for 2 years, yet the "experience" would still count.

We aren't likely to see such experience requirements reinstated either, IMHO.

Too bad, that!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , (Stevie
Stalker, Exxtra Ethnic Cleanser, swallowed his Fleet Kit and barfed
up the following shortie) :

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/19/2004 6:04 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Won't matter. When Len hits 20 years in the amateur service, these
guys will have 50. Len will still be "wet behind the ears." The
license just doesn't matter with these guys - it's merely their excuse
to act like idiots.

More excuses.

Yes, more excuses for the olde-tyme hamme raddio licensees
to vent their personal frustrations by finding faults (that done exist)
in others who have far more experience than they do in radio.

Right now I've got 51 years of HF radio "experience." That's longer
than you or many others have existed. shrug

Apparently, to the hamateur lifestylers, that "doesn't count." It wasn't
done with the Blessed and Sacred Amateur License, under "official"
league rules, done with absolutely right and proper protocol, all
marching in the ranks carrying the Newingtonian banner held high.

U.S. amateur radio is propagandized as a fun activity. From the way
some insist on turning it into an Armed Militia or corps-thinking
cannon fodder, that's not a good picture to paint. But, it IS a nice
paint-by-numbers kit, all designed for easy painting by others...which
they dive into, thinking they come up with a finished product equivalent
to the Old Masters. :-)

Rant on, gunnery nurse. Make sure your rant is paid on time. :-)

LHA / WMD

In article , Robert Casey
writes:

Len, just get the damm license.

Just for the purpose of settling a very few newsgrope irregulars
who are irritated by controversy? :-)

Not a good reason "for the service!" :-)

It ain't that hard.

I'm aware of that. So is anyone in the public who cares to look.

:-)

Hell even 5wpm.

So, learning a useless skill is considered "important?"

I've never had to learn or use any manual telegraphy in 51 years of
actual communicating on HF.

Morse code skill is an anachronism. Only amateurs use it with any
regularity and then those are only a few amateurs, a minority.

I did it and I'm no good at sort of "motor skill" kind of thing.

Not a good reason for me to waste my time trying to re-enact
the past.

Then get on the air some.

Been there, done that, from LF on up to microwaves.

Did it earlier this year using an SGC SG-2020 on HF. :-)
[also late last year, same rig...both times very legal!]

Then you can speak with some creditability
here and other forums on ham radio.

Impossible! "Those without an amateur license have zero-point-
zero experience, don't know nuthin, etc., etc., etc., etc." :-)

Ham radio works by different principles than all other radios.
That's what I'm told. I don't believe them, but lots of hams do.

As far as morseodism is concerned, I'm an atheist. I don't
worship at the Church of St. Hiram. Put away your collection
plate and Him books.

Look to yourself and contemporaries. Improve your own standing
within the "amateur community." Foster more myths and legends
of the Power of Morse, use either a Wayback or Tyme Mashine
and concentrate on 80 to 100 years ago happenings, idolize the
Pioneers of Hamateur Raddio (well over all others in radio), and
treasure the icon of icons, the amateur license certificate. Don't
bother to look towards the future...except to note the next ham
club date and time so you can continue to Spread The Word.

Live your proper lifestyle of amateurism. Be an ascetic. Toss
around more acetic acid. [stop bath in darkrooms...fitting]

"Ohm, mane padme Ohm..."



BTW, it's not a DAMN license. :-)

It's an official federal merit badge. Makes you invincible? :-)

LHA / WMD

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...
Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/19/2004 6:04 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Won't matter. When Len hits 20 years in the amateur service, these
guys will have 50. Len will still be "wet behind the ears." The
license just doesn't matter with these guys - it's merely their excuse
to act like idiots.

More excuses.

Steve, K4YZ

OK Bob, I stand corrected. It's just one more excuse for these guys
to act like idiots.