Subject: License Fees --- a poll
From: Jack Twilley
Date: 8/11/2004 12:28 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

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"K0HB" =3D=3D groupk0hb writes:

[... the poll ...]

K0HB So let's take a poll:

K0HB Q1: If it cost $250 (plus testing fees) for a 10-year license
K0HB would you have become a new amateur radio operator?

K0HB --- or ---

K0HB Q2: If it had cost $250 to renew your license each time over
K0HB your ham radio career, would your license have lapsed by now?

Of course not, but it's a straw man you've assembled. You're the only
one that I've noticed who has assumed that a license paid for with
fees would continue to have a term of ten years, and you're the only
one that I've noticed who has assumed that said license would require
payment in full.

Of course it was a strawman. Hans is as bad about being unifocal on his
own views as he accuses others of.

Hans' "poll" was along the lines of "Do you enjoy beating your wife"...

Here are some options that would have better assayed the demographic:

Would you be in favor of a yearly license fee for your Amateur Radio
license

(1) Yes

(2) No

If a yearly license fee were imposed, it would:

(1) Be no problem

(2) Be of little problem.

(3) Negatively impact my finances, but I'd work it out

(4) Would preclude me from Amateur Radio licensure

If you would be ameniable to a license fee, assuming a commensurate return
of service, what would you consider a reasonable fee?

(1) $1 to $5 a year

(2) $6 to $10 a year

(3) $11 to $15 a year

(4) $16 to $20 a year

Of course these options would not have provided Hans with the desired
"See, MY opinon was THE right one..."

I'd easily pay $50 every two years for my amateur radio license. If
my license required $250 for ten years, I'd budget for it. Now, if
the FCC wants to get the cash and continue to encourage new hams,
they'd make the first ten-year license free, with each subsequent
ten-year license renewal costing $250. In that case, you'd have to
budget for it if you wanted to renew it, but you wouldn't be dropping
a large chunk of change for an untested hobby.

That's an idea. Or another idea...Your operator license and simple
station license are free...(make 2 meters an automatic "gimme"), then each
additional band you want to operate is "extra".

Personally, I don't think "having a large number of licensed amateur
radio operators" is necessarily a good thing for amateur radio, at
least in the USA.

It's four times bigger than it was when I was first licensed, but it's
harder to strike up "routine" conversations on 2 meters anymore...Other than
being a rough guideline for the government to judge "occupancy" by, I don't
think it much matters...

I would personally prefer to see one-tenth as many
operators with each of those operators being active in at least one
common facet of amateur radio (contesting, rag-chewing, emergency
services, et cetera) and one uncommon facet of amateur radio (spread
spectrum, innovative antenna/rig design, alternative power, et
cetera). At least then the assertions that amateur radio operators
advance the state of the art of technology and contribute to the
health and safety of the community at large would have as much weight
as the assertions that hams are just a bunch of overweight balding
white men wasting valuable spectrum by discussing their colostomies
and deviated septums. Sure, the ARRL and other lobbyists would lose
"the power of numbers", but quality's worth more than quantity to me,
and I suspect the FCC might actually agree, given a moment's freedom
=2D From the political and economic overtones of every word that passes in
and out of their offices.

I think there should still be a requirement to have a minimum amount of
activity logged at each renewal period.

But those are just my personal opinions, of course.

And well stated.

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote

We shouldn't expect other radio services to pay
our way any more than we'd tolerate having
to pay for thier operations!

No other radio service pays for our licenses. The FCC budget comes out
of the Treasury Dept's "General Fund", not from fees collected.

Good luck on this one now!

73, de Hans, K0HB

Subject: License Fees --- a poll
From: "KØHB"
Date: 8/11/2004 6:13 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: k.net


"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote

We shouldn't expect other radio services to pay
our way any more than we'd tolerate having
to pay for thier operations!

No other radio service pays for our licenses. The FCC budget comes out
of the Treasury Dept's "General Fund", not from fees collected.

No kidding, huh...?!?!

I didn't say anyone did, Hans. I SAID that we would not want to pay for
any other services fees anymore than they'd want to pay for ours.

Please provide the quote where I said anything different.

I SUGGESTED that we may need to accept the idea of "fee-for-service"

Good luck on this one now!

What luck to do I need, Hans?

I didn't make the comment you suggested I did.

Why don't you focus on what IS said, rather than trying to find something
you can whip into an argument...?!?!

Good luck on THAT one now!

Steve, K4YZ

"KØHB" wrote in message hlink.net...
K4CAP/K4YZ wrote: (about license fees)

I think fees in the $25/year range would not be inappropriate.

So let's take a poll:

Q1: If it cost $250 (plus testing fees) for a 10-year license would you
have become a new amateur radio operator?

Taking your poll at it's face value I would never in this world have
been able to come up with an inflation-adjusted $250 spot cash back
for a ticket back when I got mine. A drop-dead one year Novice
ticket?? How would that have worked?? I was a teenager with just a
paper route for income and you can bet there were both kids and
retirees out there who would have had the same problem.

--- or ---

Q2: If it had cost $250 to renew your license each time over your ham
radio career, would your license have lapsed by now?

Absolutely not but I'd be screaming and hollering.

Here are my responses:

Q1: Not a chance.

Q2: When raising a family, spending $250 on a discretionary avocational
item would have been out of the question.

Depends on young family income levels which varied all over the scale
then and which varies even more today.

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv

Subject: License Fees --- a poll
From: (Brian Kelly)
Date: 8/11/2004 7:28 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

"KØHB" wrote in message
thlink.net...
K4CAP/K4YZ wrote: (about license fees)

I think fees in the $25/year range would not be inappropriate.

So let's take a poll:

Q1: If it cost $250 (plus testing fees) for a 10-year license would you
have become a new amateur radio operator?

Taking your poll at it's face value I would never in this world have
been able to come up with an inflation-adjusted $250 spot cash back
for a ticket back when I got mine.

That was the absolute "under these one set of circumstances" answer he was
looking for...And in ONE set of circumstances, he would be right.

A drop-dead one year Novice
ticket?? How would that have worked?? I was a teenager with just a
paper route for income and you can bet there were both kids and
retirees out there who would have had the same problem.

Come on, folks....2004...NOT 1974...

--- or ---

Q2: If it had cost $250 to renew your license each time over your ham
radio career, would your license have lapsed by now?

Absolutely not but I'd be screaming and hollering.

Here are my responses:

Q1: Not a chance.

Q2: When raising a family, spending $250 on a discretionary avocational
item would have been out of the question.

Depends on young family income levels which varied all over the scale
then and which varies even more today.

Like I said...there's always options. This isn't a definitive or final
option.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Brian Kelly wrote:

"KØHB" wrote in message hlink.net...
K4CAP/K4YZ wrote: (about license fees)

I think fees in the $25/year range would not be inappropriate.

So let's take a poll:

Q1: If it cost $250 (plus testing fees) for a 10-year license would you
have become a new amateur radio operator?

Taking your poll at it's face value I would never in this world have
been able to come up with an inflation-adjusted $250 spot cash back
for a ticket back when I got mine. A drop-dead one year Novice
ticket?? How would that have worked?? I was a teenager with just a
paper route for income and you can bet there were both kids and
retirees out there who would have had the same problem.

--- or ---

Q2: If it had cost $250 to renew your license each time over your ham
radio career, would your license have lapsed by now?

Absolutely not but I'd be screaming and hollering.

Here are my responses:

Q1: Not a chance.

Q2: When raising a family, spending $250 on a discretionary avocational
item would have been out of the question.

Depends on young family income levels which varied all over the scale
then and which varies even more today.

73, de Hans, K0HB

w3rv


I'm with you on both questions, Brian. Besides, I figure those charged
with administering and enforcing amateur radio are already drawing a
paycheck. Aside from Riley Hollingsworth, those who are charged with
amateur radio testing are already getting a free ride. Let the no-loads
have a go at doing what they're supposed to be doing. Why should radio
amateur volunteers do their work for them?

Dave K8MN

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:33:16 GMT, Dave Heil wrote:

I'm with you on both questions, Brian. Besides, I figure those charged
with administering and enforcing amateur radio are already drawing a
paycheck.

The license fees collected have no relationship to the "salary and
expenses" portions of the FCC budget. In fact, it works in reverse.
The Vanity processing fees do not go to the Commission, but the work
of processing them gets done by regular employees as part of the job.
It's just another siphon from the public's pocketbook invented by The
Congress. The FCC was very happy not having to collect and process
fee payments in the decade or so when they were suspended.

Aside from Riley Hollingsworth, those who are charged with
amateur radio testing are already getting a free ride. Let the no-loads
have a go at doing what they're supposed to be doing. Why should radio
amateur volunteers do their work for them?

If you are referring to the former field office examiners, those
positions were abolished in the early 1990s after all amateur and
commercial examination functions were privatized. The employees
affected either retired, were transferred to other open clerical
slots, or were RIFfed in the Great Debacle of 1996. The examiner at
my office became the office secretary when the former secretary
transferred to another agency in 1991 but retained the tail-end
examiner work until the privitization was finalized.

As I have stated here quite often, I am in favor of the FCC
"unprivatizing" the examination function, but the chances of that
happening are somewhere between none and zero.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

KØHB wrote:
K4CAP/K4YZ wrote: (about license fees)


I think fees in the $25/year range would not be inappropriate.


So let's take a poll:

Q1: If it cost $250 (plus testing fees) for a 10-year license would you
have become a new amateur radio operator?

--- or ---

Q2: If it had cost $250 to renew your license each time over your ham
radio career, would your license have lapsed by now?



Here are my responses:

Q1: Not a chance.

Q2: When raising a family, spending $250 on a discretionary avocational
item would have been out of the question.


There are probably better ways to make a poll like this, Hans. Your poll
tips all off to your opinion, and won't allow for a good answer from the
pollees. (is that a word?)

Since opinions vary in intensity even among people agreeing on a
subject, it might be better to use a agree disagree scale with say 5
possible answers:

Q1. The Ham license fee should be $250 for a ten year period.

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q2. I would support a $250 Ham radio license fee if it was tied to
increased enforcement

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q3. I would never support a $250 Ham radio license fee.

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q4. I would pay $250 for a ten year Ham license.

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q5. A ham license is worth $250 for a ten year period

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q6. $250 is too much for a 10 year Ham license.

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q7. If the fee for a Ham license were $250 for a ten year term, I would
allow my license to lapse.

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q8. I would prefer to pay for a $250 license fee once every 10 years, if
it was the case.

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q9. Paying for a $250 license fee at the rate of $25 per year is the
best way of financing the fee, if it was the case.

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Q10. There should be no license fee, ever

A - Strongly disagree
B - Disagree
C - Neutral or don't know
D - Agree
E - Strongly agree

Then allow a section for comments.

This way you'll get your answers, but without tying the person to a
digital yes/no response. Digital responses are usually way too broad to
be of much use.

My response to this new poll would be:

1 - C
2 - D
3 - B
4 - E
5 - E
6 - D
7 - A
8 - A
9 - B
10 - B

So this puts me down as a person that is neutral on the idea of a $250
dollar fee, but would support such a thing if it were tied to increased
enforcement. I'd never say I would never support such a fee. I think the
fee is too much, but would not allow my license to lapse if the fee were
that much. I'd also prefer to pay the fee at once, rather than spread it
out. And I'd never say there should never be a fee.

Or to answer your poll:

1 - yes
2 - yes


- Mike KB3EIA -

Subject: License Fees --- a poll
From: Mike Coslo
Date: 8/12/2004 7:59 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

KØHB wrote:
K4CAP/K4YZ wrote: (about license fees)


I think fees in the $25/year range would not be inappropriate.


So let's take a poll:

Snip to Mike's comments...

There are probably better ways to make a poll like this, Hans. Your poll
tips all off to your opinion, and won't allow for a good answer from the
pollees. (is that a word?)

My point exactly. Hans' "poll" was so skewed that one would be hard to
NOT answer it the way HE wanted it answered...NOT necessarily how it SHOULD be
answered.

Since opinions vary in intensity even among people agreeing on a
subject, it might be better to use a agree disagree scale with say 5
possible answers:

Snipped too...Excellent alternatives, Mike...Nice job.

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Steve Robeson K4CAP" wrote

Hans' "poll" was so skewed that one would be hard to
NOT answer it the way HE wanted it answered.

Awwww gee, Captain Obvious, ya figured it out! Kinda like your leading
question as to whether we should "trivalize the Amateur Radio service
so we can accomodate the FEW who prefer to toss the monies away on beer,
broads and booze?"

Sunuvagun!

72.5, de Hans, K0HB