Hi,

I should begin by stating that I'm not an amateur radio operator, however I
have been putting some serious consideration into taking up the hobby.
There are two groups in my area, one at the University that I attend - the
other a city group, and I have collected various information from their
respected web sites. I plan on attending some upcoming events to see what
its all about, get a feel for the community, and then hopefully become
involved.

I do have some background in RF, however. I was in the military and worked
with microwave (SHF) satellite and troposcatter terminals. I'm familiar
with basic component electronics, multiplexing techniques,
modulation/demodulation techniques, up/down conversion, signal amplication,
antenna gain (at least for parabolics), bulk encryption techniques, test
equipment (made much use out of signal generators, spectrum analyzers,
o-scopes, multimeters, attenuators, etc). Basically, I have familiarity
with everything that was required to bring up the systems I used and keep
them running. I'm more familiar with the properties of SHF than HF though.
We had HF equipment as well, but they were worked by people who had training
for HF equipment specifically. Some of the properties of HF came across to
me as being almost "black magic", since I didn't have familiarity with it.
The HF guys regarded HF as much of an art as a science. :^)

In the 1980's, while I was young, I had some introduction to amateur radio.
My neighbor was a big ham and, since I was a little Tandy/Commodore computer
geek at the time, he showed his radio equipment. At the time, I guess,
packet radio was the new emerging thing? I was really impressed and thought
packet radio was really neat. I knew then that I wanted to eventually get
involved. (He was majorly involved with ham. He was one of the main
FidoNet hubs for local BBS's in the area and brought the feeds in through
his equipment.)

I was just doing some reading and came across an article about BPL, which of
course I found to very alarming. Naturally, I take the amateur radio side
on the BPL issue. From what I have read so far, the power companies have
been able to use strong arm tactics to try to get BPL to go forward with
inadequate testing. The very arrogant comment made by the United Power Line
Council describing ham operators as "armchair amateurs who still use vacuum
tubes" speaks volumes for their professionalism (none). I'm inclined to
believe that the knowledge and professionalism of the ham community
outweighs the power utilities by an unmeasurable factor.

I really do want to become involved in the hobby and hate to ask this
question, but does BPL really have the potential of "destroying" HF amateur
radio? As someone that is just entering the hobby, should I put
consideration in changes that may be occuring in the near future when I do
start purchasing equipment. (I'm sure I'll learn all this as I attend
meetings, begin studying for licensing, etc, but was curious for now.)

Also, I was thinking (I'm not familiar with FCC regulations yet), but if the
power companies are modulating an intelligence (internet), putting it on a
carrier, putting that signal on unshielded power lines (which, in essense,
become antennas), then that sounds like "radio" to me? Shouldn't the power
companies be required to have a radio license to do BPL?

I plan on becoming actively involved on the BPL issue, once I become more
knowledgable. If the BPL threat is as serious as I have been reading, the
people making decisions on allowing it to go forward need to seriously give
it more consideration. Of course, its all about $$.

Thanks!
-Eric

"Eric" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I really do want to become involved in the hobby and hate to ask this
question, but does BPL really have the potential of "destroying" HF
amateur
radio? As someone that is just entering the hobby, should I put
consideration in changes that may be occuring in the near future when I do
start purchasing equipment. (I'm sure I'll learn all this as I attend
meetings, begin studying for licensing, etc, but was curious for now.)

Also, I was thinking (I'm not familiar with FCC regulations yet), but if
the
power companies are modulating an intelligence (internet), putting it on a
carrier, putting that signal on unshielded power lines (which, in essense,
become antennas), then that sounds like "radio" to me? Shouldn't the
power
companies be required to have a radio license to do BPL?

I plan on becoming actively involved on the BPL issue, once I become more
knowledgable. If the BPL threat is as serious as I have been reading, the
people making decisions on allowing it to go forward need to seriously
give
it more consideration. Of course, its all about $$.


One by one, the BPL trials are shutting down with no plans to continue
deployment. They have run into technical issues like interference. I also
suspect the "bean counters" are finally getting a handle on the cost to
deploy and are finding that it is not the economic bonanza that the
advertising "smoke & mirrors" tries to use to convince people. There has
been at least one published article (I've unfortunately lost the URL) by an
independent analyst that shows that BPL simply will not be financially
feasible.

To compete, BPL would have to have the speed and reliability of cable modem
with the cost of phone modem. It isn't going to happen. Projected cost for
BPL is similar to that of DSL, wireless, or cable. Those people who are
willing to pay higher prices for faster service have already gone to one of
these three services. Those still on phone modems stay there due to cost.
BPL won't change that. Plus the reliability of BPL won't be able to match
the other services. As an HF signal on an unshielded line, it will be
subject to all the interference sources we hams experience such as static
from storms, static from the guy down the street with the welder, static
from a bad transformer in the area, etc. Plus the utilities would have to
clean up their overall powerline noise to prevent problems from that.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Eric" wrote in message
...

[snip]
I really do want to become involved in the hobby and hate to ask this
question, but does BPL really have the potential of "destroying" HF

amateur

radio? As someone that is just entering the hobby, should I put
consideration in changes that may be occuring in the near future when I do
start purchasing equipment. (I'm sure I'll learn all this as I attend
meetings, begin studying for licensing, etc, but was curious for now.)

Also, I was thinking (I'm not familiar with FCC regulations yet), but if

the

power companies are modulating an intelligence (internet), putting it on a
carrier, putting that signal on unshielded power lines (which, in essense,
become antennas), then that sounds like "radio" to me? Shouldn't the

power

companies be required to have a radio license to do BPL?

I plan on becoming actively involved on the BPL issue, once I become more
knowledgable. If the BPL threat is as serious as I have been reading, the
people making decisions on allowing it to go forward need to seriously

give

it more consideration. Of course, its all about $$.



One by one, the BPL trials are shutting down with no plans to continue
deployment. They have run into technical issues like interference. I also
suspect the "bean counters" are finally getting a handle on the cost to
deploy and are finding that it is not the economic bonanza that the
advertising "smoke & mirrors" tries to use to convince people. There has
been at least one published article (I've unfortunately lost the URL) by an
independent analyst that shows that BPL simply will not be financially
feasible.

Dee's answer is spot on. I think that BPL is likely to simply fizzle out.

The hidden bugaboo in the BPL equation is that they will have to run
fiber *almost* to the house, then break it out to put it on a HV
powerline before sending it to your house. In practice this means that
in addition to the signal going to your house which needs to isolate
that HV from your computer and the rest of your household items, at the
same time, that fiber will be going past your house.

So lessee he

A danger of high voltage paying a visit in some cases of equipment failure.

The power company will have to run essentially as much fiber as in a
fiber to the house system. And

This signal can wreak havoc on Ham radio, Airplane comms, police comms,
and all the other users of HF spectrum. Presumably the BPL signal can be
"notched out" from those services it interferes with. I personally doubt
that will work. There isn't free space on the HF bands. And it's
important to remember that we are not at the best time in the solar
cycle. when propagation returns, that BPL signal might go worldwide!

And it's important to note that all manner of things interfere with BPL
also.

Its pretty much a non-starter



To compete, BPL would have to have the speed and reliability of cable modem
with the cost of phone modem. It isn't going to happen. Projected cost for
BPL is similar to that of DSL, wireless, or cable. Those people who are
willing to pay higher prices for faster service have already gone to one of
these three services. Those still on phone modems stay there due to cost.
BPL won't change that. Plus the reliability of BPL won't be able to match
the other services. As an HF signal on an unshielded line, it will be
subject to all the interference sources we hams experience such as static
from storms, static from the guy down the street with the welder, static
from a bad transformer in the area, etc. Plus the utilities would have to
clean up their overall powerline noise to prevent problems from that.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Eric" wrote in message ...
Hi,

I should begin by stating that I'm not an amateur radio operator, however I
have been putting some serious consideration into taking up the hobby.
There are two groups in my area, one at the University that I attend - the
other a city group, and I have collected various information from their
respected web sites. I plan on attending some upcoming events to see what
its all about, get a feel for the community, and then hopefully become
involved.

Try these:

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

http://www.arrl.org/

http://www.ac6v.com/

I do have some background in RF, however. I was in the military and worked
with microwave (SHF) satellite and troposcatter terminals. I'm familiar
with basic component electronics, multiplexing techniques,
modulation/demodulation techniques, up/down conversion, signal amplication,
antenna gain (at least for parabolics), bulk encryption techniques, test
equipment (made much use out of signal generators, spectrum analyzers,
o-scopes, multimeters, attenuators, etc). Basically, I have familiarity
with everything that was required to bring up the systems I used and keep
them running. I'm more familiar with the properties of SHF than HF though.
We had HF equipment as well, but they were worked by people who had training
for HF equipment specifically. Some of the properties of HF came across to
me as being almost "black magic", since I didn't have familiarity with it.
The HF guys regarded HF as much of an art as a science. :^)

They're absolutely right! "Voodoo Radio".

In the 1980's, while I was young, I had some introduction to amateur radio.
My neighbor was a big ham and, since I was a little Tandy/Commodore computer
geek at the time, he showed his radio equipment. At the time, I guess,
packet radio was the new emerging thing? I was really impressed and thought
packet radio was really neat. I knew then that I wanted to eventually get
involved. (He was majorly involved with ham. He was one of the main
FidoNet hubs for local BBS's in the area and brought the feeds in through
his equipment.)

I was just doing some reading and came across an article about BPL, which of
course I found to very alarming. Naturally, I take the amateur radio side
on the BPL issue. From what I have read so far, the power companies have
been able to use strong arm tactics to try to get BPL to go forward with
inadequate testing. The very arrogant comment made by the United Power Line
Council describing ham operators as "armchair amateurs who still use vacuum
tubes" speaks volumes for their professionalism (none). I'm inclined to
believe that the knowledge and professionalism of the ham community
outweighs the power utilities by an unmeasurable factor.

I really do want to become involved in the hobby and hate to ask this
question, but does BPL really have the potential of "destroying" HF amateur
radio? As someone that is just entering the hobby, should I put
consideration in changes that may be occuring in the near future when I do
start purchasing equipment. (I'm sure I'll learn all this as I attend
meetings, begin studying for licensing, etc, but was curious for now.)

*IF* BPL is widely implemented as proposed by the industry and the FCC
HF ham radio could be in for some difficult times but the final
outcome is far from clear at this point. As the weeks and months roll
on in the ham radio battle against BPL it's looking more and more like
BPL is an idea whose time will never come. I'm certainly not
abandoning my ham license or my interest in HF radio just because this
BPL bogeyman has popped up. If you find you're really interested in HF
ham radio I say go for it, getting a license is just a matter of
passing another test, you really don't have much to lose one way or
another.

Also, I was thinking (I'm not familiar with FCC regulations yet), but if the
power companies are modulating an intelligence (internet), putting it on a
carrier, putting that signal on unshielded power lines (which, in essense,
become antennas), then that sounds like "radio" to me? Shouldn't the power
companies be required to have a radio license to do BPL?

I plan on becoming actively involved on the BPL issue, once I become more
knowledgable. If the BPL threat is as serious as I have been reading, the
people making decisions on allowing it to go forward need to seriously give
it more consideration. Of course, its all about $$.

Here's a site which gets into BPL from the ham radio perspective and
the fight against BPL which includes a pile of links to the info you
would find useful:

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/


Thanks!
-Eric

Brian w3rv

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. I just read them all and they provided excellent
insight.

I wish I could make a more lengthly replies, but unfortunately strapped for
time at the moment.

I'm planning to attent the next local event and am quite excited to
(finally) become involved with this hobby.

(Its been something that I've wanted to do for a long time now.)

Thanks again! (Subscribed to this NG now and will be lurking, replying to
this thread when time permits, and hopefully in the future will have a
callsign to suffix here.) :^)

The hidden bugaboo in the BPL equation is that they will have to run
fiber *almost* to the house, then break it out to put it on a HV
powerline before sending it to your house. In practice this means that
in addition to the signal going to your house which needs to isolate
that HV from your computer and the rest of your household items, at the
same time, that fiber will be going past your house.


If they have to run fiber down your street, they might as well do wi-fi
instead of BPL. The "modems" for BPL and wi-fi would cost about the
same, and wi-fi would offer better and faster service. And wi-fi
is in production so why bother with BPL? It maybe some dopey legal
thing in that only the cable company or phone company is allowed
to string fiber and set up wi-fi, thus the power company can't do
anything unless they run the signal over the power wires somewhere
to the customer. But it would be better and cheaper to find a legal
work-around for this (or just bribe someone.. ;-) ).

Eric wrote:
Hi,

I should begin by stating that I'm not an amateur radio operator, however I
have been putting some serious consideration into taking up the hobby.
There are two groups in my area, one at the University that I attend - the
other a city group, and I have collected various information from their
respected web sites. I plan on attending some upcoming events to see what
its all about, get a feel for the community, and then hopefully become
involved.

I do have some background in RF, however. I was in the military and worked
with microwave (SHF) satellite and troposcatter terminals. I'm familiar
with basic component electronics, multiplexing techniques,
modulation/demodulation techniques, up/down conversion, signal amplication,
antenna gain (at least for parabolics), bulk encryption techniques, test
equipment (made much use out of signal generators, spectrum analyzers,
o-scopes, multimeters, attenuators, etc). Basically, I have familiarity
with everything that was required to bring up the systems I used and keep
them running. I'm more familiar with the properties of SHF than HF though.
We had HF equipment as well, but they were worked by people who had training
for HF equipment specifically. Some of the properties of HF came across to
me as being almost "black magic", since I didn't have familiarity with it.
The HF guys regarded HF as much of an art as a science. :^)


You should have no real problem passing the written tests
other than some rules and regulations and some HF related
stuff. See http://www.aa9pw.com/ for practice tests. Also
nowadays it's only 5 words per minute Morse code for the general
and extra licenses. The tech is no code, which gives you all
ham privs above 50MHz.

Robert Casey wrote:




The hidden bugaboo in the BPL equation is that they will have to
run fiber *almost* to the house, then break it out to put it on a HV
powerline before sending it to your house. In practice this means that
in addition to the signal going to your house which needs to isolate
that HV from your computer and the rest of your household items, at
the same time, that fiber will be going past your house.


If they have to run fiber down your street, they might as well do wi-fi
instead of BPL.

I'd take it one step further - If there is fiber running past my house,
I want fiber!



The "modems" for BPL and wi-fi would cost about the
same, and wi-fi would offer better and faster service.

Otherwise, agreed!

And wi-fi
is in production so why bother with BPL? It maybe some dopey legal
thing in that only the cable company or phone company is allowed
to string fiber and set up wi-fi, thus the power company can't do
anything unless they run the signal over the power wires somewhere
to the customer. But it would be better and cheaper to find a legal
work-around for this (or just bribe someone.. ;-) ).

I think the big attraction to BPL is that to the techically ignorant,
it seems like a no-brainer that you can take a wire already going into
the house and just put another signal on it, and presto magic! They
don't take into account that the wires act as both a transmitting and
recieving antenna, and that the BPL equipment might just make a path
between higher voltages and their household voltages, and that a work
truck can simply drive past their house and interuppt theie porn
download with it's wideband spark noise. Wanna see some sparks? Have the
BPL backers take on the trucking industry!!!!!

Remember, there is plenty of money to be made on failures as well as
successes. Even if most people lose their money, if the "right people"
are in at the beginning, they can bail before the big fall.

Problem is that BPL is such a stupid idea that it probably won't get
off the ground. But that's a problem for them more than us.


- Mike KB3EIA -

You should have no real problem passing the written tests
other than some rules and regulations and some HF related
stuff. See http://www.aa9pw.com/ for practice tests. Also
nowadays it's only 5 words per minute Morse code for the general
and extra licenses. The tech is no code, which gives you all
ham privs above 50MHz.

Awesome, thanks! I just bookmarked that URL and will go through the
practice tests.

Yeah, I have no familiarity with any of the FCC rules and regs. I plan on
picking up some resources from a bookstore after attending the next local
event and get some guidance.

LOL, yep, I also have no proficiency (or even familiarity!) with Morse! I
did download a few Morse training applications recently and plan on learning
it.

Thanks again!