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#11
October 15th 04, 02:36 AM
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Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , (William) writes: There's somewhat the same keyboard lock-out at maximum rate in the Model 28s and later that are 100 WPM maximums. Few touch typists can go that fast except in bursts. That's incorrect, Leonard. Anyone who has spent more than a year steadily poking tape on a 28 can reasonably be expected to type at or near the machine's maximum capability. It's a fact, visible to anyone around a real communications center, that p-tape is what is used for continuous throughput. Yep, paper or mylar (for tapes used frequently). Trouble is, someone has to input that information to the tape without errors. Someone has to manually assign Message Reference Numbers and (for those who use them) Message Continuity Numbers. Someone has to look up the routers for stations infrequently addressed. There's a lot more to this "continuous throughput" than you've indicated. Morsemanship is always "discussed" by morsemen at the highest possible rates, of course with zero errors at both ends of the circuit. Non-morse communications are always done (according to morsemen) at the slowest possible rates and with a maximum of errors. As with CW circuits, RTTY circuits are subject to receiving errors and to transmitting errors. Multipath distortion or "echo" can leave an RTTY circuit useless when the same distortion has little effect on a morse circuit. Jimmie dreams his dreams of being the Best, or at least among the very best morsemen at a time when the rest of the world has gotten on with change and long ago changed to newer, faster, better techniques of communications by radio. Uh...Len? You're not doing much communicating via amateur radio, are you? Does the fact that morse remains a popular mode, in wide use by radio amateurs bother you? Dave K8MN |
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#13
October 15th 04, 03:14 AM
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In article , Dave Heil
writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , (William) writes: There's somewhat the same keyboard lock-out at maximum rate in the Model 28s and later that are 100 WPM maximums. Few touch typists can go that fast except in bursts. That's incorrect, Leonard. Anyone who has spent more than a year steadily poking tape on a 28 can reasonably be expected to type at or near the machine's maximum capability. It's a fact, visible to anyone around a real communications center, that p-tape is what is used for continuous throughput. Yep, paper or mylar (for tapes used frequently). Trouble is, someone has to input that information to the tape without errors. Someone has to manually assign Message Reference Numbers and (for those who use them) Message Continuity Numbers. Someone has to look up the routers for stations infrequently addressed. There's a lot more to this "continuous throughput" than you've indicated. Yes...the transmitting distributors do their thing all by themselves. One racked-up tape will start pushing through as soon as the other reader finishes... Sunnuvagun! :-) Tsk. All the morsemen "know" that they do near-perfect copy every single time at high rates. :-) All you mighty macho morsemen can do 100 WPM throughput for hours and hours continuously... :-) As with CW circuits, RTTY circuits are subject to receiving errors and to transmitting errors. Multipath distortion or "echo" can leave an RTTY circuit useless when the same distortion has little effect on a morse circuit. Wow, World's Greatest DXer spouting propagation effects! Guess that's why all the other radio services abandoned RTTY and took up morse on-off carrier keying, wasn't it? :-) Oh, no, wait...it was the other way around! Sunnuvagun! Uh...Len? You're not doing much communicating via amateur radio, are you? Can't do that legally, World's Greatest DXer. Not on the ham bands. I'm just as legal as anything on HF in other radio services. :-) Does the fact that morse remains a popular mode, in wide use by radio amateurs bother you? No. Amateurs are the LAST vestige of morsemanship in radio. If amateurs want to keep on recreating the past over and over again, then I say "have fun, kiddies." Enjoy. When you PCTA extra blowhards start spouting all the BS about morsemanship is "necessary" to operate...other than the legal requirement...on HF, then it's time to send a good old raspberry to those stuffed-shirt, self-important, olde-tymers who don't have much but morsemanship to be proud of... All those amateur morseaholics aren't taking any test when they are busy keying. What is at stake is whether or not a morse test has any validity for any amateur radio license test. The FCC doesn't think so, didn't think so several years ago. But, big World's Greatest DXer, you aren't pleased with that answer, are you? You will go right ahead with your "not licensed" schtick and do personal attacks against any NCTA...because that is the way you are...another representative of the PCTA olde-fahrts who demand that all have to endure the test YOU had to do long ago. Sunnuvagun! |
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#14
October 15th 04, 04:48 AM
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Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: (Len Over 21) Date: 10/14/2004 7:52 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: In article , (Steve Robeson K4CAP) writes: Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting? From: (Len Over 21) Date: 10/14/2004 2:03 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: And I am sure THEY are proud of you too. I am sure you represent the highest calibre of what the American engineering community has to offer. Putz. Tsk, tsk, tsk. I'm proud to be a member of the electronic engineering community and of the Institute for Electrical and Electronic Engineers professional organization. I became a Life Member without paying anything extra and even gained...no more membership dues required from Life Members! Doesn't matter how you came into your membership, Lennie. If I were an officer of the IEEE and had occassion to see how you "represent" engineers in general and the IEEE in particular, I'd see what I could do to remove you from my rolls. Sunnuvagun! Sunnuvagun, indeed... But, I've never represented myself as being any "highest calibre [sic]" and there are thousands more skilled in the profession than I. And there are even MORE thousands more skilled than you in the Amateur Radio Service. And yes, you HAVE represented yourself as being of the "highest calibre", and yes that suggestion is VERY sic[k]. Of course, to those who are ignorant of the most basic electrical theories, I'm sure that a working knowledge of most radio circuits would appear as astounding, almost science fiction. [pun not obvious to any long-time Analog readers, heh heh] Those of us that use the technology everyday are hardly "astound(ed)" by it...And certainly in as much as YOU had absolutely nothing to do with it, Lennie. From your standpoint as an ex-purchasing agent for a small company who couldn't hack that for more than about a half year...(SNIP) Wrong again, Lennie, but then facts aren't your strongpoint. (UNSNIP)...I doubt you possess enough smarts to do a reasonable evaluation of what real engineers do, know, or act. Then we have something in common, Lennie. Neither did you Sunnuvagun! Sunnuvagun, indeed. Tsk, tsk. You went and used that Yiddish pejorative of "Putz," meaning "penis head," again. Well, Lennie...It fits, what can I say? You lie. You don't get your facts right. You misrepresent factual events, you are deceitful and just plain lousy as human beings go. Must be that PCTA extra Double Standard thing. Sir James of Miccolis may or may not slap you on the wrist with a moist hankie for that. Probably not. Sir James has not been in the best of moods since he got his "state of the art" (with tubes) "type 7" unrewarded with gratuitous praise, admiration, and respect for his 1990s design. The noble laureate is concentrating on more nastygrams against those who dare call a kluge a kluge. So, while chastising me for some perceived personal transgression, you furhter perpetuate yet another LennieLie by yet again using diminutives Jim Micciolis, despite the fact that he does nothing of the like to you. So, big "qualified" medical health professional, have you "dialled" and made that "call to authorities" yet? I'm just sitting here waiting for some other things to arrive. Good opportunity for those "authorities" (under your mighty telephoned orders, of course) to come and "have me committed!" Indeed I did have some conversations with folks very close to you, Lennie. Interesting stuff, too. Brought me up-to-date on Chapter 5150, and what are recordable events, etc. A report by a duly-licensed healthcare worker is a recordable event. It may or maynot warrant an investigation, however files are started and any similar report by another licensed person or law enforcement flags the subject's name in future investigations. Aren't you glad you asked? Steve, K4YZ |
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#15
October 15th 04, 04:49 AM
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Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: (Len Over 21) Date: 10/14/2004 8:14 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: Sunnuvagun! Sunnuvagun! Sunnuvagun! Plagarizing Putz! Sunnuvagun! Steve, K4YZ |
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#16
October 15th 04, 05:15 AM
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(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , (William) writes: Steve just blew his training. Back to week 1, day 1. Oh, how I wish I were a real doctor of pathos and could help him more. Back to reading Pavlov. All he can say is "Arf, Arf!" We have to watch him salivate. :-) A french poodle in a flight suit. Watch him do tricks. Hi, hi! |
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#17
October 15th 04, 07:14 AM
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Len Over 21 wrote:
In article , Dave Heil writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , (William) writes: There's somewhat the same keyboard lock-out at maximum rate in the Model 28s and later that are 100 WPM maximums. Few touch typists can go that fast except in bursts. That's incorrect, Leonard. Anyone who has spent more than a year steadily poking tape on a 28 can reasonably be expected to type at or near the machine's maximum capability. It's a fact, visible to anyone around a real communications center, that p-tape is what is used for continuous throughput. Yep, paper or mylar (for tapes used frequently). Trouble is, someone has to input that information to the tape without errors. Someone has to manually assign Message Reference Numbers and (for those who use them) Message Continuity Numbers. Someone has to look up the routers for stations infrequently addressed. There's a lot more to this "continuous throughput" than you've indicated. Yes...the transmitting distributors do their thing all by themselves. One racked-up tape will start pushing through as soon as the other reader finishes... Sunnuvagun! :-) Indeed. You managed to cobble together a paragraph which doesn't address my comments at all. Tsk. All the morsemen "know" that they do near-perfect copy every single time at high rates. :-) Tsk. I've not seen that written except by you. RTTY is only as perfect as a the typist who inputs the material and then only if there are no noise bursts to create additional errors. All you mighty macho morsemen can do 100 WPM throughput for hours and hours continuously... :-) Really? As with CW circuits, RTTY circuits are subject to receiving errors and to transmitting errors. Multipath distortion or "echo" can leave an RTTY circuit useless when the same distortion has little effect on a morse circuit. Wow, World's Greatest DXer spouting propagation effects! Is he here too? Why, I was spouting propagation effects myself! I happen to know quite a bit about it. Maybe the World's Greatest DXer and myself can get together and give you a few pointers on the subject. Guess that's why all the other radio services abandoned RTTY and took up morse on-off carrier keying, wasn't it? :-) Oh, no, wait...it was the other way around! Sunnuvagun! I'm not too concerned with what other radio services do. I'll continue to enjoy the use of morse. I do hope that's all right with you. Uh...Len? You're not doing much communicating via amateur radio, are you? Can't do that legally, World's Greatest DXer. Not on the ham bands. Is he here? Funny, that's my view of you too. I'm just as legal as anything on HF in other radio services. :-) "Other" radio services, huh? I'm sure you're having a ball on lots of them. Does the fact that morse remains a popular mode, in wide use by radio amateurs bother you? No. Amateurs are the LAST vestige of morsemanship in radio. You say "No" but continue with the "LAST vestige" stuff. It sounds as if you're bothered by the use of morse by radio amateurs. If amateurs want to keep on recreating the past over and over again, then I say "have fun, kiddies." Enjoy. We're not "kiddies", Len and you aren't one of us. I'm not recreating anything. I'm using something which is there. Are you recreating when you use SSB, AM or FM? When you PCTA extra blowhards start spouting all the BS about morsemanship is "necessary" to operate...other than the legal requirement...on HF, then it's time to send a good old raspberry to those stuffed-shirt, self-important, olde-tymers who don't have much but morsemanship to be proud of... Don't let it worry you, Leonard. You aren't involved in the slightest. You are to amateur radio what a chainsaw is to a symphony. All those amateur morseaholics aren't taking any test when they are busy keying. What is at stake is whether or not a morse test has any validity for any amateur radio license test. The FCC doesn't think so, didn't think so several years ago. Why should any of that concern you? You aren't in. You aren't getting in. The FCC doesn't seem to have taken any action except to reduce the HF morse testing speed to 5 wpm. Why do you think that is? But, big World's Greatest DXer, you aren't pleased with that answer, are you? Is he here too? I'll bet he could give you some valueable insight as to how to better use your venerable R-70. You will go right ahead with your "not licensed" schtick... Yes, I will. It happens to be true. You aren't in. You have no plans to get in. You have no experience in amateur radio. You have no stake in amateur radio. and do personal attacks against any NCTA...because that is the way you are That's not quite correct. I'll be happy to take shots at you though. It doesn't seem to matter if people take pokes at you or razz you or if they are civil to you. You continue to insult and demean. You deserve everything you get here, poor old piranha. ...another representative of the PCTA olde-fahrts who demand that all have to endure the test YOU had to do long ago. You can't possibly endure the test I had to take. The test I had to take isn't being given any longer. You can't even take the same written test. You're an old fart, Len and you're on the periphery of amateur radio. I suppose you'll stay there. Dave K8MN |
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#18
October 15th 04, 08:10 AM
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Subject: Doing Battle? Can't Resist Posting?
From: Dave Heil Date: 10/15/2004 12:14 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: Len Over 21 wrote: Guess that's why all the other radio services abandoned RTTY and took up morse on-off carrier keying, wasn't it? :-) Oh, no, wait...it was the other way around! Sunnuvagun! I'm not too concerned with what other radio services do. I'll continue to enjoy the use of morse. I do hope that's all right with you. In actuallity, the other radio services are abandoning RTTY in droves. Too many mistakes. Too unreliable. Of course the World's Greatest Professional Radio Engineer hasn't addressed that. I can only assume that is because the LAST time he had any significant exposure to any message handling on HF was in 1950-something at A-something-A, a rear area radio relay station at which he was not even an operator...just a mechanic...so says HIS oft-repeated MOS. 73 Steve, K4YZ |
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#19
October 15th 04, 11:02 PM
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In article ,
(William) writes: (Len Over 21) wrote in message ... In article , (William) writes: Steve just blew his training. Back to week 1, day 1. Oh, how I wish I were a real doctor of pathos and could help him more. Back to reading Pavlov. All he can say is "Arf, Arf!" We have to watch him salivate. :-) A french poodle in a flight suit. Watch him do tricks. Hi, hi! That "poodle" got too close to a trimming razor last time...:-) He be a little poodle on the flight line, close to the landing gear... But...a "pilot in command!" Hi hi. |
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#20
October 15th 04, 11:02 PM
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In article , Dave Heil
writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , Dave Heil writes: Len Over 21 wrote: In article , (William) writes: There's somewhat the same keyboard lock-out at maximum rate in the Model 28s and later that are 100 WPM maximums. Few touch typists can go that fast except in bursts. That's incorrect, Leonard. Anyone who has spent more than a year steadily poking tape on a 28 can reasonably be expected to type at or near the machine's maximum capability. It's a fact, visible to anyone around a real communications center, that p-tape is what is used for continuous throughput. Yep, paper or mylar (for tapes used frequently). Trouble is, someone has to input that information to the tape without errors. Someone has to manually assign Message Reference Numbers and (for those who use them) Message Continuity Numbers. Someone has to look up the routers for stations infrequently addressed. There's a lot more to this "continuous throughput" than you've indicated. Yes...the transmitting distributors do their thing all by themselves. One racked-up tape will start pushing through as soon as the other reader finishes... Sunnuvagun! :-) Indeed. You managed to cobble together a paragraph which doesn't address my comments at all. Tsk. One is REQUIRED to "address your comments," your royalness? :-) Tsk. All the morsemen "know" that they do near-perfect copy every single time at high rates. :-) Tsk. I've not seen that written except by you. RTTY is only as perfect as a the typist who inputs the material and then only if there are no noise bursts to create additional errors. Tsk, you don't "see" much... :-) More tsk...you forget that a p-tape TTY message can be read, scanned, checked, changed if needed by a new tape, checked all over again...usually at a message center or central before sent as RTTY. Or done "off line" at a ham station just like a PC e-mail message. The obvious advantage is that the outgoing message as well as the incoming reply can be stored easily without resorting to a paper form. Those "noise bursts" affect manual morse reception as well, unless the sending rate is so slow that it occurs between dots. Technical tsk: The noise bursts are primarily of amplitude. They do have some wideband frequency content, but the common noise experienced at home hobby ham stations is primarily impulse noise with more amplitude (think AM) content that have less effect on Frequency Shift Keying. (think FM) RTTY can be resent easily and quickly without resorting to any paper. At 100 WPM continuous rates that still goes faster than common manual morse. Special character coding can include FEC (Forward Error Correction) or ECC (Error Correction), the latter able to automatically correct singular bit errors and to indicate double bit errors. The claim by many morsemen is that "CW gets through when nothing else will..." which is a hoary old myth dating from about the 1930s and morsemen bragging that they were better than the voice communicators. The only conclusion on "noise burst" circuit problems is that most of those morsemen were "filling in the blanks" and not doing real copy. :-) Despite all your negative criticism against non-morse communications methods, all the other radio services engaged in communications have dropped morse on-off keying modes. On-off keying of a carrier just doesn't cut it in the communications world of now. I'm not too concerned with what other radio services do. I'll continue to enjoy the use of morse. I do hope that's all right with you. Enjoy it all you want. I was never against any morse USE...only against the TEST for same for radio operator licenses. If you want to claim extraordinary or even ordinary prowess of superhuman (or even ordinary superior human) ability, feel free to brag up a storm complete with your usual windy rhetoric. None of that arrogant thundering is any sort of case to retain the old morse manual test for licensing for any newcomers. "Other" radio services, huh? I'm sure you're having a ball on lots of them. I have. :-) No. Amateurs are the LAST vestige of morsemanship in radio. You say "No" but continue with the "LAST vestige" stuff. It sounds as if you're bothered by the use of morse by radio amateurs. Tsk. No. Only by the excessive self-righteous self-proclaimed superiority (as a 1930s expert radio morseman) and expecting all others to emulate your mighty and superior accomplishments. What YOU had to do long ago to get your license just does not apply to the radio world of now. The higher morse rate testing was an artificiality of old, a left-over from the past when the only method of radio communications was by on-off keying. We're not "kiddies", Len and you aren't one of us. I'm not recreating anything. I'm using something which is there. Tsk. You are acting the usual arrogant bully when expecting all to agree with your idea of what constitutes "fun" in ham radio. All those old, tired, worn-out, dead cliches about "absolutely needing to prove manual morse capability to work HF" is just a heap of artificial BS left over from earlier times...repeated and repeated and repeated by the ARRL for so long that the league lost sight (and hearing) of what it originally meant. If you and the other mighty morsemen want to preserve and protect morsemanship through required manual morse testing, then you had best petition the FCC for changing the ARS to the Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society. That's what the HF part of U.S. ham radio became decades ago. That's what the testing requlations required. A name change would make the ARS more meaningful to what it was. Don't let it worry you, Leonard. You aren't involved in the slightest. You are to amateur radio what a chainsaw is to a symphony. Tsk, tsk. Mike Coslo had an innovative use for a chainsaw as a shallow trench maker for radial wires. You didn't like that. :-) I'm sure you look down your nose at all who don't agree what you consider is vital to ham radio enjoyment...that's been demonstrated in your on-going comments to all who have different interests in here. Why should any of that concern you? You aren't in. Don't have to be "in." :-) The FCC regulates U.S. civil radio. The laws of the USA don't require the FCC commissioners or staff to hold amateur radio licenses in order to regulate U.S. amateur radio. Despite your mighty brass-section trumpeting about "needing to be 'in' in order to 'direct things' in ham radio," YOU are NOT a radio regulator. YOU are nothing but a mighty wind section demanding all go along with your ideas, conceptions, and general wild hairs of what 'should be done' and 'who is allowed to regulate it.' :-) Not an orchestra by any means, just a bad brass band, out of step with the times yet demanding that all keep the old things. You aren't getting in. Are you going to STOP me?!? Oh, my. Tsk. The FCC doesn't seem to have taken any action except to reduce the HF morse testing speed to 5 wpm. Why do you think that is? They seem to be overwhelmed by the olde-fahrt olde-tymer morsemen who are blindly believing in the morse religion and have filled the ECFS' 18 petition commentary with same. :-) Is he here too? I'll bet he could give you some valueable insight as to how to better use your venerable R-70. That general purpose receiver is still working as good as it did when I bought it and when I tested it to its factory specifications shortly thereafter. Icom has a good product there. Tsk. Two NCTAs in here having the same Icom receiver (both still working) seems to be a sore point with you. Poor baby. Go play with your Orion, why don't you? That ready-made will bring you up to the "state of the art!" :-) You will go right ahead with your "not licensed" schtick... Yes, I will. It happens to be true. No, it is NOT "true." You don't regulate U.S. amateur radio. All you are is an olde-tymer snarling about all having to do as you did before they are allowed to talk about it, discuss it, or anything else. Tsk. Elementary civics teaches us that U.S. federal laws are open for dicsussion by all citizens according to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. You seek to BAR any citizen from talking about regulations of radio hobby licensing. You aren't any member of any bar association, so don't try to throw your weight around where you are weightless. You aren't in. You have no plans to get in. Tsk. I don't tell all in here. :-) Neither am I required to tell YOU on YOUR demand about anything. Heh heh heh. Ever the demanding arrogance of someone who likes to push folks around. First Amendment. Refresh your memory with what it means. Feel free to review Title 47 C.F.R. Part 97 and show us all where ONLY already-licensed radio amateurs can talk or discuss the amateur radio regulations. Show your work. You have no experience in amateur radio. I have MUCH experience in RADIO. It's true that I have no amateur radio license. It's also true that I have a commercial radio operator license and had several other radio licenses. See Part 97 again and tell us all the sub-part that allows ONLY already-licensed radio amateurs to talk about amateur radio. You have no stake in amateur radio. Tsk. There you go again DEMANDING a "stake!" Be advised that von Helsing may give YOU a stake. Wooden. [I would suggest wormwood as fitting...] It doesn't seem to matter if people take pokes at you or razz you or if they are civil to you. Heh heh heh heh. I'm a long-time veteran of computer-modem communications with a survivor's thick virtual skin. :-) But, very very FEW PCTAs in here have been civil to me. Begin with Jim Kehler, continue through assorted types who couldn't take it in here and left, on through a couple of now-deceased PCTAs who weren't able to continue for obvious reasons. ALL of them insisted and insisted and insisted that the morse code test "must" stay...as "tradition," as a number of invalid reasons, but (unvoiced) was the real reason, that of making all newcomers jump through the same hoops they had to jump through. You continue to insult and demean. Tsk. I return fire with fire. :-) You don't like it because you imperiously demand that all the "firing" be yours against others. Tsk. You deserve everything you get here, poor old piranha. Tsk. Someone wrote that all were "civil TO me?" :-) Hello? Can you understand 'hypocrisy?' :-) You can't possibly endure the test I had to take. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!! The test I had to take isn't being given any longer. Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehheeehhheeee e. You can't even take the same written test. No need, is there? Tsk, tsk. You're an old fart, Len and you're on the periphery of amateur radio. I did have some bean soup a couple days ago. Black bean. Very good with a salad and a sandwich. No flatulence, though. I come in here and sense a great deal of flatulence from you olde-tymers boasting that NOBODY "could endure the kind of test they endured." Funny as hell, this newsgroup. :-) I suppose you'll stay there. Maybe I will. Maybe I won't. Either way, YOU have NO CONTROL over it! Sunnuvagun! :-) |
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