Lenof21 wrote:

All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

To quote FCC rules:

"97.21(b) A person whose amateur station license grant has expired
may apply to the FCC for renewal of the license grant for another term
during a 2 year filing grace period. The application must be received
t the address specified above prior to the end of the grace period.
Unless and until the license grant is renewed, no privileges in this Part
are conferred."

Last sentence says it all: "Unless and until the license grant is renewed,
no privileges in this Part are conferred."

This isn't some fine point of the rules that's subject to interpretation.
FCC amateur licenses have 10 year terms, and if a license is allowed
to expire, the licensee *cannot* legally operate until the license is renewed.

Do you agree or disagree, Len?

There is no necessity (nor sense) to eliminate those in the
grace period from those in the normal 10-year license period from
any class totals.

Sure there is - their licenses are expired and they cannot operate.

If you want to include expired-but-in-the-grace-period licensees in
the totals, go right ahead. But be sure to indicate that you are doing
so, unless *you* want to "massage" the numbers.

The numbers I post twice each month are the totals of *unexpired*
licenses held by *individuals*. That's clear (to people who can
understand plain English) in every one of my post of license totals.
Nothing "massaged" about them.

To repeat, the allegation that there is a "big drop" in Technician
Class numbers is WRONG. Raw data doesn't show that.

What "raw data" have you examined, Len?

"hamdata.com" isn't "raw data".

Have you downloaded the FCC database? Processed it yourself?
Or do you simply take the numbers from a trusted website, same as
I do?

Implying that the allegation still exists is merely compounding the wrongness.

Who made such an allegation, Len?

The sum of *unexpired* Technicians and Technician Pluses *has* declined since
May of 2000.

Jim, N2EY

On 08 Jan 2005 21:31:53 GMT, N2EY wrote:

Lenof21 wrote:

All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

Unless the renewal has been applied for before expiration. Then,
the license privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:36:59 -0800 (PST), "Phil Kane"
wrote:

On 08 Jan 2005 21:31:53 GMT, N2EY wrote:

Lenof21 wrote:

All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

Unless the renewal has been applied for before expiration. Then,
the license privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.

Oh oh. An exception to the rule rears its ugly head.....

How could the J & M tag team possibly miss that one?

73, Leo.

Leo wrote:
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:36:59 -0800 (PST), "Phil Kane"
wrote:


On 08 Jan 2005 21:31:53 GMT, N2EY wrote:


Lenof21 wrote:


All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

Unless the renewal has been applied for before expiration. Then,
the license privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.


Oh oh. An exception to the rule rears its ugly head.....


The exception that proves the rule, Leo.

Certainly such a procedure would be necessary, as there is a finite
period that it takes the FCC to grant the renewed license, and a finite
period of time that it takes to get to them. So a person that renews
their license on the last day will always go beyond the deadline,
especially if they mail their renewal in.

How could the J & M tag team possibly miss that one?

On the other hand, if the person waits one day *after* the license
expires, it is a different story, eh?


- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Leo
writes:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:36:59 -0800 (PST), "Phil Kane"
wrote:

On 08 Jan 2005 21:31:53 GMT, N2EY wrote:

Lenof21 wrote:

All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

Unless the renewal has been applied for before expiration. Then,
the license privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.

Oh oh. An exception to the rule rears its ugly head.....

How could the J & M tag team possibly miss that one?

Happy New Year, Leo...

Sure enough, the PCTA extras in here disregard the subject in order
to lambaste (and generally make nasty to) any NCTA about anything.
:-)

Doesn't matter if the NCTA are right or wrong (deliberately so in the
case suddenly become front-page news of sorts)...all NCTA are
targets of opportunity to be DISCREDITED by any means possible.

The "tag team" seems to think that all hams are always active on-
the-air as good "service personnel" (or something) during their valid
license period. Never mind that there are absences from the "service"
for many different reasons. The "grace period" insures that such
absence will not allow any licensee to lose their (apparently) so precious
tribal identification of a call sign. The call sign is "who we are" to
quote
one licensee in here some years ago. That would be especially true
for the Vanity calls. Licensees POSSESS their calls and those become
very, very personal.

In the USA I might even suggest that the FDA (Food and Drug
Administration) step in and help the FCC literally brand the granted
call sign on the physical person of the licensee, perhaps by a tatoo.
That might complete the process of the New Identity within the Tribe.
[why not? the FDA here certifies real hams ... :-) ]

The "new identity" is important since it bestows a rank/status/privilege
down here in a land without royals, no fancy titles or whatever. For
example, a Rhode Islander could, under older rules, suddenly become
a "resident" of Hawaii without even leaving the mainland. The arranger
of that was able to retitle hisself from junior college math teacher to
"mathematics lecturer in the university system." Neither one "did
anything wrong" according to them. But, a whole bunch of very phony
"radio club" calls got tossed in the dumpster by the FCC not too long
ago. Another fantasylander thought he had much more clout in the real
world than the U.S. aremed forces when he admonished another about
"permission to operate a radio" from Somalia when that individual served
in the military there. Yet another fantasylander keeps on bragging about
his military record ("seven hostile actions" without ever saying where or
when) and then trying to tear down others' real military records. Tsk.
Then we have the classic knowitall who never served at all making like
he knows more than Janes about USSR air power just because a real
veteran slipped up once in a message. There's still another "serviceman"
of the amateur corps who dines with aircraft carrier captains and looks
down his nose at those who've done real military HF communications
much more than he will have done in his lifetime. It's quite a collection!

Note: All those wonderful braggarts are PCTA extra. They can say
anything, write anything, do anything in here and are absolved from ANY
criticism. Should they be taken to task, the task-taker is soundly
objected to with endearing personal perjoratives having little to do with
the subject.

It's a plain simple fact that all NCTA in here are always wrong, no matter
what they write on anything. No one who is of the NCTA persuasion
should bother debating the subject in here. The matter is closed and all
NCTA are forever wrong, incorrect, and probably have underarm odor.

:-)

Lenof21 wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:


On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:36:59 -0800 (PST), "Phil Kane"
wrote:


On 08 Jan 2005 21:31:53 GMT, N2EY wrote:


Lenof21 wrote:


All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

Unless the renewal has been applied for before expiration. Then,
the license privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.

Oh oh. An exception to the rule rears its ugly head.....

How could the J & M tag team possibly miss that one?


Happy New Year, Leo...

Sure enough, the PCTA extras in here disregard the subject in order
to lambaste (and generally make nasty to) any NCTA about anything.
:-)

Is disagreement with you making nasty to you?

Is pointing out a mistake making nasty to you?


Doesn't matter if the NCTA are right or wrong (deliberately so in the
case suddenly become front-page news of sorts)...all NCTA are
targets of opportunity to be DISCREDITED by any means possible.

hmm, sounds like a conspiracy...... 8^)

The "tag team" seems to think that all hams are always active on-
the-air as good "service personnel" (or something) during their valid
license period.

Who said that? I have a post in answer to you that would indicate that
I definitely do *not* think that way.


Never mind that there are absences from the "service"
for many different reasons. The "grace period" insures that such
absence will not allow any licensee to lose their (apparently) so precious
tribal identification of a call sign. The call sign is "who we are" to
quote
one licensee in here some years ago. That would be especially true
for the Vanity calls. Licensees POSSESS their calls and those become
very, very personal.

In the USA I might even suggest that the FDA (Food and Drug
Administration) step in and help the FCC literally brand the granted
call sign on the physical person of the licensee, perhaps by a tatoo.
That might complete the process of the New Identity within the Tribe.
[why not? the FDA here certifies real hams ... :-) ]

The "new identity" is important since it bestows a rank/status/privilege
down here in a land without royals, no fancy titles or whatever. For
example, a Rhode Islander could, under older rules, suddenly become
a "resident" of Hawaii without even leaving the mainland. The arranger
of that was able to retitle hisself from junior college math teacher to
"mathematics lecturer in the university system." Neither one "did
anything wrong" according to them. But, a whole bunch of very phony
"radio club" calls got tossed in the dumpster by the FCC not too long
ago. Another fantasylander thought he had much more clout in the real
world than the U.S. aremed forces when he admonished another about
"permission to operate a radio" from Somalia when that individual served
in the military there. Yet another fantasylander keeps on bragging about
his military record ("seven hostile actions" without ever saying where or
when) and then trying to tear down others' real military records. Tsk.
Then we have the classic knowitall who never served at all making like
he knows more than Janes about USSR air power just because a real
veteran slipped up once in a message. There's still another "serviceman"
of the amateur corps who dines with aircraft carrier captains and looks
down his nose at those who've done real military HF communications
much more than he will have done in his lifetime. It's quite a collection!

Note: All those wonderful braggarts are PCTA extra. They can say
anything, write anything, do anything in here and are absolved from ANY
criticism. Should they be taken to task, the task-taker is soundly
objected to with endearing personal perjoratives having little to do with
the subject.

It's a plain simple fact that all NCTA in here are always wrong, no matter
what they write on anything. No one who is of the NCTA persuasion
should bother debating the subject in here. The matter is closed and all
NCTA are forever wrong, incorrect, and probably have underarm odor.

Interesting post. It doe not negate the fact that you have been wrong
on several occasions. We all are at times. But it isn't "all NCTA's, or
even NCTNA's. But that is okay. No damage done.

You post indicates that you are pretty upset about this. Don't be mad
at yourself. Being wrong on a matter just means that the next time you
won't be.

Chin up! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

Lenof21 wrote:


All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.


Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

To quote FCC rules:

"97.21(b) A person whose amateur station license grant has expired
may apply to the FCC for renewal of the license grant for another term
during a 2 year filing grace period. The application must be received
at the address specified above prior to the end of the grace period.
Unless and until the license grant is renewed, no privileges in this Part
are conferred."

Last sentence says it all: "Unless and until the license grant is renewed,
no privileges in this Part are conferred."

But Len wrote:

"All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period."

Not *some* licensees, or licensees who have sent in a renewal, but *ALL*
licensees.

That's clearly not true.

Do you agree or disagree, Len?

Maybe we should go easy on Len, Jim. He seems pretty upset.

- Mike KB3EIA -

On 09 Jan 2005 04:51:35 GMT, (Lenof21) wrote:

In article , Leo
writes:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:36:59 -0800 (PST), "Phil Kane"
wrote:

On 08 Jan 2005 21:31:53 GMT, N2EY wrote:

Lenof21 wrote:

All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

Unless the renewal has been applied for before expiration. Then,
the license privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.

Oh oh. An exception to the rule rears its ugly head.....

How could the J & M tag team possibly miss that one?

Happy New Year, Leo...

Thanks - you too, Len!

Sure enough, the PCTA extras in here disregard the subject in order
to lambaste (and generally make nasty to) any NCTA about anything.
:-)

Some even enter a batch of posts on a variety of subjects, apparently
hoping to get sonething on the hook.......what's the word for that
again...?


Doesn't matter if the NCTA are right or wrong (deliberately so in the
case suddenly become front-page news of sorts)...all NCTA are
targets of opportunity to be DISCREDITED by any means possible.

The "tag team" seems to think that all hams are always active on-
the-air as good "service personnel" (or something) during their valid
license period. Never mind that there are absences from the "service"
for many different reasons. The "grace period" insures that such
absence will not allow any licensee to lose their (apparently) so precious
tribal identification of a call sign. The call sign is "who we are" to
quote
one licensee in here some years ago. That would be especially true
for the Vanity calls. Licensees POSSESS their calls and those become
very, very personal.

That's true even more so up here in the (currently) frozen North -
licenses and call signs are issued to Canadian hams for life, no
renewal required. The call sign is protected for a year after you SK,
to allow a family member to qualify and acquire it.

No bureaucracy, no renewals, no paperwork, no grace period required -
unless you break the law and lose it, or move to a new province (the
call sign doesn't follow you around the country like they do in the
States), you'll expire long before it does


In the USA I might even suggest that the FDA (Food and Drug
Administration) step in and help the FCC literally brand the granted
call sign on the physical person of the licensee, perhaps by a tatoo.
That might complete the process of the New Identity within the Tribe.
[why not? the FDA here certifies real hams ... :-) ]

A good application for the microchip, perhaps - technology proven in
the Veterinary world for quite a few years now....?


The "new identity" is important since it bestows a rank/status/privilege
down here in a land without royals, no fancy titles or whatever. For
example, a Rhode Islander could, under older rules, suddenly become
a "resident" of Hawaii without even leaving the mainland. The arranger
of that was able to retitle hisself from junior college math teacher to
"mathematics lecturer in the university system." Neither one "did
anything wrong" according to them. But, a whole bunch of very phony
"radio club" calls got tossed in the dumpster by the FCC not too long
ago. Another fantasylander thought he had much more clout in the real
world than the U.S. aremed forces when he admonished another about
"permission to operate a radio" from Somalia when that individual served
in the military there. Yet another fantasylander keeps on bragging about
his military record ("seven hostile actions" without ever saying where or
when) and then trying to tear down others' real military records. Tsk.
Then we have the classic knowitall who never served at all making like
he knows more than Janes about USSR air power just because a real
veteran slipped up once in a message. There's still another "serviceman"
of the amateur corps who dines with aircraft carrier captains and looks
down his nose at those who've done real military HF communications
much more than he will have done in his lifetime. It's quite a collection!

It sure is.....engineers who have problems with basic math,
thinly-veiled trolls looking to provoke fights.....

It's a wonderful microcosm in here indeed. Of what, specifically, I'm
not quite sure!


Note: All those wonderful braggarts are PCTA extra. They can say
anything, write anything, do anything in here and are absolved from ANY
criticism. Should they be taken to task, the task-taker is soundly
objected to with endearing personal perjoratives having little to do with
the subject.

Ipso facto, with a few exceptions - there are several OMs here who are
quite civil, knowledgeable and conversational, and do not possess the
NetNanny gene.....


It's a plain simple fact that all NCTA in here are always wrong, no matter
what they write on anything. No one who is of the NCTA persuasion
should bother debating the subject in here. The matter is closed and all
NCTA are forever wrong, incorrect, and probably have underarm odor.

......and skinned knuckles!

Note that it isn't always a PCTA / NCTA thing, though - we've seen
recent battles between folks of a similar stripe, simply because they
disagree on some arcane point. These disputes are just as vitriolic,
nasty and profane as any of the 'standard' ones here in the group!

But, after all, what's more important than Always Being Right About
Everything?


:-)



73, Leo

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
Lenof21 wrote:

All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until the is renewed.

I've listened to bootleggers on 20 and 75 Meters which have
been "operating" therin for over 15+ years.

Even more on 2 Meters local, mostly seems to be
weed-whacker pilots conversing in spanish.

FCC couldn't give a rat's posterior.

In article ,
(Lenof21) writes:

In article , Leo

writes:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:36:59 -0800 (PST), "Phil Kane"
wrote:

On 08 Jan 2005 21:31:53 GMT, N2EY wrote:

Lenof21 wrote:

All licensees are perfectly legal to continue operating in their grace
period.

Nope. Wrong. You are mistaken. Once an amateur's license expires,
he or she *cannot* legally operate until it is renewed.

Unless the renewal has been applied for before expiration. Then,
the license privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.

I did not know that! Thanks, Phil.

Amend my statement to read:

Once an amateur's license expires, he or she *cannot* legally operate until it
is renewed. If renewal has been applied for before expiration, the license
privileges continue until the FCC acts upon the application.



However, it proves my point: *All* amateurs with expired licenses cannot
continue to operate in the grace period. Only those who have applied for
renewal *before the license actually expired* and whose applications have not
yet been processed by FCC can do so.

Where in Part 97 is this documented?

Oh oh. An exception to the rule rears its ugly head.....

How could the J & M tag team possibly miss that one?

Sure enough, the PCTA extras in here disregard the subject in order
to lambaste (and generally make nasty to) any NCTA about anything.
:-)

It is *you* who are disregsarding the subject, Len.

Can *all* amateurs with expired licenses legally operate while in the grace
period, Len? That's what you claimed. It isn't so.

Do you retract your statement or stand by it, Len?

Doesn't matter if the NCTA are right or wrong (deliberately so in the
case suddenly become front-page news of sorts)...all NCTA are
targets of opportunity to be DISCREDITED by any means possible.

Not at all, Len.

Your statement about operation in the renewal period was clearly wrong.
97.21(b) proves that. Has nothing to do with code testing at all, but has
everyhting to do with a basic understanding of Part 97.

Your statements err on the side of breaking the law rather than observing it.

The "tag team" seems to think that all hams are always active on-
the-air as good "service personnel" (or something) during their valid
license period.

Where do you get that?

Never mind that there are absences from the "service"
for many different reasons.

Such as?

The "grace period" insures that such
absence will not allow any licensee to lose their (apparently) so precious
tribal identification of a call sign.

That's not the issue. The issue is whether operating with an
expuired-but-in-the-grace-period license is legal. You've written that it is
legal for all amateurs. Part 97 says it isn't.

The call sign is "who we are" to
quote
one licensee in here some years ago.

Who was that?

That would be especially true
for the Vanity calls. Licensees POSSESS their calls and those become
very, very personal.

Is that a problem? Perhaps it is a sore point with you because you do not have
an amateur radio call sign.

In the USA I might even suggest that the FDA (Food and Drug
Administration) step in and help the FCC literally brand the granted
call sign on the physical person of the licensee, perhaps by a tatoo.
That might complete the process of the New Identity within the Tribe.
[why not? the FDA here certifies real hams ... :-) ]

Perhaps USDA could certify your posts as "100% pure bull", too....;-) ;-)

The plain, simple fact is that Len Anderson simply made a mistake on 97.21(b).
But he won't admit it.