Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#101
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
From: "Dan/W4NTI" on Sun, Feb 27 2005 12:11 am
wrote in message roups.com... A real "communicator" will say 'key the mike', or 'key the circuit'. Dan/W4NTI Sorry, but real "communicators" refer to "key" when they load an encryption code. BOL, bb Poor Dan never got his crypto clearance... :-) Oh dear....here he is again. Your right. I've been meaning to turn in my decoder ring to the arms room ever since I left the KY-7 on the floor of the room. "KY-7?" Is that some kind of jelly? :-) You must mean KY-57 at least (that's about to go obsolete and replaced with already-operational newer crypto things)? How about VINSON? Want some more alphabet-soup names? :-) Dan, you are about as up-to-speed on today's crypto devices as you are about on-line TTY rotor machines or the M-209 Code Converter. Geez. :-) Screw off dip****. Go back to the corner and pop some more brews with your bros as you wait for someone small to come by, ones that your gang think they can beat up, OK? :-) |
#103
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() K4YZ wrote: bb wrote: Dan/W4NTI wrote: "bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dan/W4NTI wrote: A real "communicator" will say 'key the mike', or 'key the circuit'. Dan/W4NTI Sorry, but real "communicators" refer to "key" when they load an encryption code. BOL, bb Oh yes indeed they do, as in KAC codes or the old antique KY-7 stuff, eh? Well bb we are talking about ham radio. Of course I understand, LEN the LOON, that you have no understanding of that subject. Tweek twit. Dan/W4NTI Now Dan, you're mixing metaphors. You're either talking about "real communicators" or you're talking about "ham radio" ops. Which is it? In either case it's doubtful you're covered, so why sweat it? Steve, K4YZ Then you agree that the two classifications are different. |
#104
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Phil Kane wrote:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:39:00 -0500, Mike Coslo wrote: Smith charts are just as obsolete as Ohms law.............. With some of the Russian-trained engineers whose work my wife has to correct, Ohm's Law, as well as electrical codes, are mere "suggestions". Isn't that where weird science was invented? - Mike KB3EIA - |
#105
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
From: "Phil Kane" on Sun, Feb 27 2005 8:23 am
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:39:00 -0500, Mike Coslo wrote: Smith charts are just as obsolete as Ohms law.............. With some of the Russian-trained engineers whose work my wife has to correct, Ohm's Law, as well as electrical codes, are mere "suggestions". Phil, with some of the AMERICAN trained RF folks I've worked with, the Smith Chart presentation on paper or on the display screens of various RF instruments is an indispensable tool for quickly observing both narrow- and wideband behavior of RF structures. Ohm's Law of Resistance is universally accepted in the radio and electronics community worldwide...but there are some huge exceptions with "foreign" concepts such as the Smith Chart. Olde-tyme hammes haven't a clue on what the wonderful chart tells them nor can they see the relationship between complex quantities nor understand "normalization" of impedance. Something involving algebra of three or more quantities is apparently "rocket science" to them. shrug I could do complex quantity calculations on my little AMERICAN-made HP-25 and HP-67 pocket calculators (made in HP's old plant in Oregon) and can still do them on the Singapore-constructed HP 32S II (but designed by HP) I have now. A few keystrokes is all. No "special education" in Russia or any other foreign country needed to do that. No PC is needed either, such as finding a "calculator" Java script thing to find reactance at a frequency (I can't believe some folks never progressed far enough in self-education to learn the simple formulas for reactance...or are afraid to learn and apply them). If the Coslonaut thinks Smith Charts are obsolete then, in this newsgroup, he will be "correct." In here the PCTA extras are always right, anyone against them hate ham radio and are always wrong. Rules of the Court as it were. |
#106
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in news:1109527218.137133.13160 Mathcad . . ah, yes . . If you do any engineering math which gets complicated in Excel you need Mathcad Alun. I've been using it for about ten years and it's become absolutely indispensible. Maybe only a half hour after I first loaded and fired Mathcad up those ten years ago and started messing with it I was running rapid-fire "what-if's" on a double integral I'd dreamed up as an exercise. Very intuitive. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to run it. Heh. I'm a patent agent these days. I may write patent applications for communications systems that have complex equations in them, but that's about as close as I get to having to solve mathematical problems, except in the hobby of course. OK, you've explained that before but I forgot what you're doing to earn your daily bread. It's the guys developing the systems who need to crunch the numbers, not thee. I've gone off on a couple career tangents over the years and got into the marketing and sales game and went for several spells in which I seldom even needed a handheld calculator. But in the past 15 years I've been almost 100% back to the design and build end of the biz and much of it has involved some fairly serious analytical work. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered with Mathcad. Now that I'm semi-retired and just sniping a project here and there I've acquired a whole collection of design tools like Mathcad, CAD and some bits and pieces of structural design FEA I can really focus on hobby sorts of things. Smith charts are actually most useful for designing stubs. I suppose I could design a stub match for a beam using a Smith chart if I felt so inclined, I know how to do it, but 9/10 of hams only follow someone else's published designs, or they might adjust the stub or other matching circuit by trial and error. Agreed. I've been pecking at HF wire antenna modeling via Nec Win Plus and am getting all sorts of two-decimal-place accuracy results which I bloody well know from experience are probably at least 3-5% off one way or another. Back to the diagonal cutters & soldering gun . . as usual. For this reason I'm actually not sure of the value of testing hams on Smith charts, but I felt pretty sure I had seen a question on them in the pool? Beats me, I haven't spent much time poking around the pools. I don't see the point to testing for "Smith chart operations"any more than I see the point to test questions on using sliderule log scales to calculate decibles up/down. Based on some of the absolutely idiotic posts about antenna matching issues by duly licensed individuals I've seen in other venues indicate to me that if nothing else more test questions on transmission line theory and practice need to be "loaded" into the QPs. w3rv |
#107
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() wrote: From: "Phil Kane" on Sun, Feb 27 2005 8:23 am On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:39:00 -0500, Mike Coslo wrote: Smith charts are just as obsolete as Ohms law.............. With some of the Russian-trained engineers whose work my wife has to correct, Ohm's Law, as well as electrical codes, are mere "suggestions". Phil, with some of the AMERICAN trained RF folks I've worked with, the Smith Chart presentation on paper or on the display screens of various RF instruments is an indispensable tool for quickly observing both narrow- and wideband behavior of RF structures. Ohm's Law of Resistance is universally accepted in the radio and electronics community worldwide...but there are some huge exceptions with "foreign" concepts such as the Smith Chart. Olde-tyme hammes haven't a clue on what the wonderful chart tells them nor can they see the relationship between complex quantities nor understand "normalization" of impedance. Something involving algebra of three or more quantities is apparently "rocket science" to them. shrug I could do complex quantity calculations on my little AMERICAN-made HP-25 and HP-67 pocket calculators (made in HP's old plant in Oregon) and can still do them on the Singapore-constructed HP 32S II (but designed by HP) I have now. It was made in Indonesia Sweetums. Get SOMETHING right at least onece in awhile WILLYA? shrug A few keystrokes is all. No "special education" in Russia or any other foreign country needed to do that. No PC is needed either, such as finding a "calculator" Java script thing to find reactance at a frequency (I can't believe some folks never progressed far enough in self-education to learn the simple formulas for reactance...or are afraid to learn and apply them). If the Coslonaut thinks Smith Charts are obsolete then, in this newsgroup, he will be "correct." In here the PCTA extras are always right, anyone against them hate ham radio and are always wrong. Rules of the Court as it were. |
#108
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Alun L. Palmer wrote:
wrote in ups.com: Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in news:1109271864.160442.290220 @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: Perhaps a compromise could be used. Suppose the code test were replaced with a test of - say - skill in solving transmission-line problems with the Smith Chart... There already are Smith Chart questions in the pool You must have missed this one, Alun: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...cy/msg/0206dcd 6822763ed?dmode=source It's quite whimsical, I'll take that to mean "funny". Thanks! but hardly really comparable with CW. In some ways I agree. The use of Morse Code/CW in amateur radio is far more common than the use of the Smith Chart, mostly because most hams spend more time operating than designing. And the Smith Chart is hardly a necessity for RF work. As W3RV points out, there are many software tools which do the job better and faster. The Smith Chart's ingenious graphicality was whiz-bang stuff in its time - just like the old ARRL Lightning Calculators. And Morse Code. All are still useful today. But make no mistake, they're *OLD* methods - all of them. But if a Smith Chart skill test *were* substituted for the Morse Code test, you can bet that the same sort of debate would arise, and for exactly the same reasons. I would be happy with just theory tests where both the Smith chart and CW were in the question pool. I suspect many would agree. I don't. If there had to be a skill test it ought to involve soldering and/or putting on a PL 259, IMHO, but I don't think even those things as essential, in fact for my money you could just put those things in the theory test too. Why are they needed? PL-259s aren't needed to build a ham station - I know many hams who avoid PL-259s like the plague, preferring type N and BNC for their superior RF and waterproof characteristics. There are also solderless PL-259 equivalents. When it comes to doing them, people learn quickly enough. *Some* people do. Others don't even have the sense to file the nickel plating off before soldering, or to buy silverplated connectors. Point is, *any* test of skill is going to raise the hackles of some folks. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#109
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in news:1108637750.922635.205620 : Alun L. Palmer wrote: "Alun L. Palmer" wrote in . 30: wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100 : Alun L. Palmer wrote: Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has fallen. How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still have it? It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I think at least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have abolished the code test so far. I think that of these only Austria and the Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that doesn't give HF privileges. That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some out. I make the combined ham population of the above something over 260,000 (possibly more than half of them no-coders), so probably a little less than half the number of hams in the US. 260,000/670,000 = about 38.9% Quite a bit less than half. However, there are well over 50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish the code test very soon. Yep. But there are two big points about Canada: 1) The proposal would increase the written test level This is a biggie. Simply proposing to drop the code test is *not* the same thing as proposing to drop the code test *and* beef up the writtens. I'd like that quite a bit. But that hasn't been proposed in the USA. IIRC, one of the things proposed in Canada was to make the code test optional in that if you passed code you didn't need as high a grade on theory to get the license. Now that just seems strange. How so? It's simply an option. The test should either be or not be. Not some kind of bonus that allows you to be less technically proficient. Then why require more technical knowledge for an Extra? That license does not allow the holder to use any more modes, power, or bands than a General. Just a few additional slices of spectrum. If the nocodetest folks in the USA proposed options like those they might get a lot more support. But instead, we have folks like NCVEC telling us we must drop code *and* reduce the written still more. And how! Let's not forget that NCI also supports lowering the test requirements. So do others that support automatic upgrades. All they have to go on is "gut" feelings. And unfortunately, the first wave of no-code Technicians appear to be dropping like flies. "Gut" feelings can be wrong. I don't see *any* license class "dropping like flies". Check the AH0A data on renewals - thousands of Techs are renewing every month, either before the license runs out or in the grace period. Note that almost 5 years after the 200 restructuring we still retain more than 50% of Novices and 75% of Advanceds. Theirs is a failed and incorrect paradigm. Maybe. The concept of "lowered entry requirements = sustained growth" just hasn't happened in the ARS. We don't need hams that thought that maybe it would be kewl to get a ham license some weekend between coffee at Starbucks and their Pilates classes, and then forget about it. We need hams who want to be hams. Agreed! But of course people have to know what ham radio *is* to do that! 2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey done to date, nor in the commentary to FCC. Another biggie. Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million (twice that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general population), has long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts. Check your numbers! Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost nothing and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham operator licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day hams. Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have been dropping for a decade. The number of new JA licenses has also been dropping. See the AH0A website. I'm not sure how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence, Well over 95%. but they may even rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new guys can use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of time before Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway. All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for decades. But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a code test. And there's no move to change that yet. And for ten years JA ham license numbers have been dropping fast. *With* nocodetest HF. Quick! Let's emulate Japan! Except we can do it better by allowing the newbies full power privileges. Japan's obvious success can be our own! Indeed. Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of no-coders who have full HF privileges right now is probably about the same as the number of no-code Techs in the US. Close enough. And if there are already that number of no-code hams on HF without any incident, what is the problem with abolishing the code test here? The USA isn't Japan. Different society, different culture, different rules. I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets say in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent design of the cup?) So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and is half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits already! We have that situation today. I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful burn and a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if we don't train them well. The same is true of ordinary house current. And it's not just voltage. Get a metal ring a high current supply and the results aren't pretty. If the ring is on your finger..... Yet the NCVEC folks say the solution is to create a class of ham that can't use rigs with more than 30 volts on the electronics... RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full legal limit. Why? We don't test people on gasoline-handling safety, nor ladder safety, nor many other things that injure thousands of Americans every year. I agree that every ham should be safety-aware. But a true test of safety would be far more extensive than even the Extra writtens. And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some other weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety requirements. They are - today, anyway. Anything else is criminally negligent. Umm, Mike, you're saying it's the Govt's role to protect people from their own ignorance and unsafe behavior..... It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam looks like. And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new operator licenses is way down. That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia! OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams and the number of countries. The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself. Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the code test. The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual ownership of firearms, too. Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have dropped code testing? No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it *hasn't* brought in lots of new folks. Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make it out to be. Of course! It's the classic case of a red herring diversion. Blame the code test for everyhting bad while the real problems are not addressed. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#110
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
wrote in
oups.com: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: Alun L. Palmer wrote: wrote in news:1108637750.922635.205620 : Alun L. Palmer wrote: "Alun L. Palmer" wrote in . 30: wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100 : Alun L. Palmer wrote: Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has fallen. How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still have it? It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I think at least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have abolished the code test so far. I think that of these only Austria and the Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that doesn't give HF privileges. That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some out. I make the combined ham population of the above something over 260,000 (possibly more than half of them no-coders), so probably a little less than half the number of hams in the US. 260,000/670,000 = about 38.9% Quite a bit less than half. However, there are well over 50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish the code test very soon. Yep. But there are two big points about Canada: 1) The proposal would increase the written test level This is a biggie. Simply proposing to drop the code test is *not* the same thing as proposing to drop the code test *and* beef up the writtens. I'd like that quite a bit. But that hasn't been proposed in the USA. IIRC, one of the things proposed in Canada was to make the code test optional in that if you passed code you didn't need as high a grade on theory to get the license. Now that just seems strange. How so? It's simply an option. The test should either be or not be. Not some kind of bonus that allows you to be less technically proficient. Then why require more technical knowledge for an Extra? That license does not allow the holder to use any more modes, power, or bands than a General. Just a few additional slices of spectrum. If the nocodetest folks in the USA proposed options like those they might get a lot more support. But instead, we have folks like NCVEC telling us we must drop code *and* reduce the written still more. And how! Let's not forget that NCI also supports lowering the test requirements. So do others that support automatic upgrades. All they have to go on is "gut" feelings. And unfortunately, the first wave of no-code Technicians appear to be dropping like flies. "Gut" feelings can be wrong. I don't see *any* license class "dropping like flies". Check the AH0A data on renewals - thousands of Techs are renewing every month, either before the license runs out or in the grace period. Note that almost 5 years after the 200 restructuring we still retain more than 50% of Novices and 75% of Advanceds. Theirs is a failed and incorrect paradigm. Maybe. The concept of "lowered entry requirements = sustained growth" just hasn't happened in the ARS. We don't need hams that thought that maybe it would be kewl to get a ham license some weekend between coffee at Starbucks and their Pilates classes, and then forget about it. We need hams who want to be hams. Agreed! But of course people have to know what ham radio *is* to do that! 2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey done to date, nor in the commentary to FCC. Another biggie. Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million (twice that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general population), has long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts. Check your numbers! Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost nothing and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham operator licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day hams. Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have been dropping for a decade. The number of new JA licenses has also been dropping. See the AH0A website. I'm not sure how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence, Well over 95%. but they may even rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new guys can use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of time before Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway. All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for decades. But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a code test. And there's no move to change that yet. And for ten years JA ham license numbers have been dropping fast. *With* nocodetest HF. Quick! Let's emulate Japan! Except we can do it better by allowing the newbies full power privileges. Japan's obvious success can be our own! Indeed. Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of no-coders who have full HF privileges right now is probably about the same as the number of no-code Techs in the US. Close enough. And if there are already that number of no-code hams on HF without any incident, what is the problem with abolishing the code test here? The USA isn't Japan. Different society, different culture, different rules. I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets say in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent design of the cup?) So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and is half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits already! We have that situation today. I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful burn and a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if we don't train them well. The same is true of ordinary house current. And it's not just voltage. Get a metal ring a high current supply and the results aren't pretty. If the ring is on your finger..... Yet the NCVEC folks say the solution is to create a class of ham that can't use rigs with more than 30 volts on the electronics... RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full legal limit. Why? We don't test people on gasoline-handling safety, nor ladder safety, nor many other things that injure thousands of Americans every year. I agree that every ham should be safety-aware. But a true test of safety would be far more extensive than even the Extra writtens. And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some other weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety requirements. They are - today, anyway. Anything else is criminally negligent. Umm, Mike, you're saying it's the Govt's role to protect people from their own ignorance and unsafe behavior..... It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam looks like. And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new operator licenses is way down. That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia! OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams and the number of countries. The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself. Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the code test. The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual ownership of firearms, too. Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have dropped code testing? No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it *hasn't* brought in lots of new folks. Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make it out to be. Of course! It's the classic case of a red herring diversion. Blame the code test for everyhting bad while the real problems are not addressed. 73 de Jim, N2EY It depends what you mean. Will repealing the code test provide a vast increase in numbers? No. Will it provide some increase? Yes. Are there thousands of hams that could pass the General or Extra theory trapped above 30 MHz? Yes. Will there be a large increase in HF use? Yes. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Your Sing, Africa, ReSpirit the World | Shortwave | |||
IBRA Radio B04 | Shortwave | |||
Channel Africa A04 | Shortwave | |||
Channel Africa A04 | Shortwave | |||
( OT ) Quite a bit... ;-) | Shortwave |