Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in
:

wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more
domino has fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those
who still have it?

73 de Jim, N2EY

It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I
think at
least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the
Netherlands,
Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore,
Australia,
New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have
abolished
the code test so far. I think that of these only Austria and
the
Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that doesn't
give HF privileges.

That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some
out. I
make the combined ham population of the above something over
260,000
(possibly more than half of them no-coders), so probably a
little less
than half the number of hams in the US.

260,000/670,000 = about 38.9%

However, there are well over
50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish
the code test very soon.

Yep. But there are two big points about Canada:

1) The proposal would increase the written test level

2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority
favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey done
to date, nor in the commentary to FCC.


Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million
(twice
that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general
population), has
long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts.

Check your numbers!

Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost nothing
and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham operator
licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day hams.

Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have been
dropping for a decade.

The number of new JA licenses has also been dropping.

See the AH0A website.

I'm not sure
how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence,

Well over 95%.

but they may even
rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new
guys can
use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of time
before
Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway.

All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for
decades.

But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a
code test. And there's no move to change that yet.

Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of
no-coders
who have full HF privileges right now is probably about the
same as the
number of no-code Techs in the US.

Close enough.

That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for
itself.

Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote in news:1108637750.922635.205620
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in
:

wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still
have it?

73 de Jim, N2EY

It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I
think at
least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the
Netherlands,
Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore,
Australia,
New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have
abolished the code test so far. I think that of these only Austria
and the Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that doesn't
give HF privileges.

That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some
out. I make the combined ham population of the above something over
260,000 (possibly more than half of them no-coders), so probably
a little less
than half the number of hams in the US.

260,000/670,000 = about 38.9%

However, there are well over
50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish the code test
very soon.

Yep. But there are two big points about Canada:

1) The proposal would increase the written test level

2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority
favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey done
to date, nor in the commentary to FCC.


Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million (twice
that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general
population), has
long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts.

Check your numbers!

Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost nothing
and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham operator
licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day hams.

Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have been
dropping for a decade.

The number of new JA licenses has also been dropping.

See the AH0A website.

I'm not sure
how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence,

Well over 95%.

but they may even
rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new
guys can use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of time
before Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway.

All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for
decades.

But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a
code test. And there's no move to change that yet.

Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of
no-coders who have full HF privileges right now is probably about
the same as the
number of no-code Techs in the US.

Close enough.

And if there are already that number of no-code hams on HF without any
incident, what is the problem with abolishing the code test here?


That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for
itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the code
test.

Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?

73 de Jim, N2EY



No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries

wrote in news:1108606123.450223.319640
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino
has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still
have it?

A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of the
UN
and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea of a

'tiny' fraction. The point is, of course, that we are far from done
yet.
Canada may be next.

One more out of 185 or so snore. Let's see here . . where's my
sliderule . . . if four "dominoes" per year fall, which is about the
current rate and the rate is maintained it'll be 2046 before the last
code test requirement is dropped.

snore=B2.

Note that most of the countries on Alun's list are
chunks of Old Europe and their syncophants where socialist gummint
giveaways are rampant compared with the rest of the world.


So you prefer totalitarian regimes instead?

Don't be silly and don't whine.

Nor does it include heavy hitters like the countries of the former
Soviet bloc, Brazil, India and China.


Those countries have large populations, but they don't they have the
highest numbers of hams per head.

Nonsense. What government has made the code/nocode decision based on
it's number of hams per capita?? None of course. My point is that
governments make these kinds of decisions based on their culture-based
inclinations in such matters. Which is to say that the former Soviets,
Brazil, India and China are not socialist giveaway swamps like Sweden,
France and the rest and are far less likely to quit the code tests.
Which in turn brings up the question about how many billions of people
will probably continue to live under regimes which require code tests
vs the number who will not require code tests.

Gonna be a LOOONG time before the last code test disappears . .


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv


I'm sure it will be a great comfort to you if the Russian Federation
is the
last to keep a code test. They are not my idea of anyone I would want
to
emulate, however.

But emulating Sweden is OK huh?=20
=20
n3kip

w3rv

bb wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino has

fallen.


Wouldn't it make a country proud to emulate South Africa?

- Mike KB3EIA -


Don't go getting ethnocentric on us, Mike. Not very liberal-like. Or
maybe it is. They're the ones always counting how many blacks,
hispanics, american eskimos, cajuns, etc there are.

Ethnocentricity is at the core of the problem there, not me going
ethnocentric.

- mike KB3EIA -

Dave Heil wrote:
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

wrote in news:1108606123.450223.319640
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino
has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who
still
have it?

A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of
the UN
and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea of
a
'tiny' fraction.

Ten percent is a tiny fraction when compared to 100%.

It is 1/10. You could compare it to 10/10, but then you'd defeat the
purpose of showing it as a ratio.

wrote in news:1108665611.010471.49400
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:


wrote in news:1108606123.450223.319640
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino
has fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who still
have it?

A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of the
UN and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea of a

'tiny' fraction. The point is, of course, that we are far from done
yet. Canada may be next.

One more out of 185 or so snore. Let's see here . . where's my
sliderule . . . if four "dominoes" per year fall, which is about the
current rate and the rate is maintained it'll be 2046 before the last
code test requirement is dropped.


Most of those other 170+ are pretty small, although you choose to mention
the big ones by name of course.

snore².

Note that most of the countries on Alun's list are
chunks of Old Europe and their syncophants where socialist gummint
giveaways are rampant compared with the rest of the world.


So you prefer totalitarian regimes instead?

Don't be silly and don't whine.

What you call Old Europe isn't socialist by any rational standards, unless
you are an extreme neo-con republican? I'll take that as a yes.


Nor does it include heavy hitters like the countries of the former
Soviet bloc, Brazil, India and China.


Those countries have large populations, but they don't they have the
highest numbers of hams per head.

Nonsense. What government has made the code/nocode decision based on
it's number of hams per capita?? None of course.

Nor did I say they did

My point is that
governments make these kinds of decisions based on their culture-based
inclinations in such matters. Which is to say that the former Soviets,
Brazil, India and China are not socialist giveaway swamps like Sweden,
France and the rest and are far less likely to quit the code tests.

Last time I checked France and Sweden were capitalist countries and China
was socialist. As for Russia, the old communists seem to be taking over
again, albeit they don't actually care what system they rule over, nor ever
did, IMHO.

Which in turn brings up the question about how many billions of people
will probably continue to live under regimes which require code tests
vs the number who will not require code tests.

Gonna be a LOOONG time before the last code test disappears . .


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv


I'm sure it will be a great comfort to you if the Russian Federation
is the last to keep a code test. They are not my idea of anyone I
would want to emulate, however.

But emulating Sweden is OK huh?

n3kip

w3rv



Sure, why not?

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
wrote in news:1108665611.010471.49400
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:


A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of
the
UN and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea
of a

'tiny' fraction. The point is, of course, that we are far from
done
yet. Canada may be next.

One more out of 185 or so snore. Let's see here . . where's my
sliderule . . . if four "dominoes" per year fall, which is about
the
current rate and the rate is maintained it'll be 2046 before the
last
code test requirement is dropped.


Most of those other 170+ are pretty small, although you choose to
mention
the big ones by name of course.

Of course, because first of all it's the big countries which set trends
at least regionally and it's their huge numbers of citizens who would
potentially be most affected by changes in ham radio regs. Which is a
whole different topic from the effects on their existing ham
populations whatever their number.


What you call Old Europe isn't socialist by any rational standards,
unless
you are an extreme neo-con republican? I'll take that as a yes.

Don't because you couldn't be more wrong.


My point is that
governments make these kinds of decisions based on their
culture-based
inclinations in such matters. Which is to say that the former
Soviets,
Brazil, India and China are not socialist giveaway swamps like
Sweden,
France and the rest and are far less likely to quit the code tests.

Last time I checked France and Sweden were capitalist countries and
China
was socialist.

They're both socialist Alun. The only difference being that China uses
the Marx/Lennin model and Sweden is the model for Old Europe socialism.



As for Russia, the old communists seem to be taking over
again, albeit they don't actually care what system they rule over,
nor ever
did, IMHO.

Never in their thousand year history have the Russians lived in a
democracy or a capitalist society, their genes need to be conditioned
before they get their act together by western standards. In the
meanwhile they're suffering from massive startup lumps and bumps which
were predicted long before the Soviet Union actually imploded. Whatever
this has to do with code tests.

I'm sure it will be a great comfort to you if the Russian
Federation
is the last to keep a code test. They are not my idea of anyone I
would want to emulate, however.

But emulating Sweden is OK huh?

n3kip

w3rv



Sure, why not?

BINGO: There it is. Old Europe. Sez it all.

Not in your lifetime Alun.

'Bye.

w3rv

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
wrote in news:1108637750.922635.205620
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in
:

wrote in news:1108578593.250795.201100
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Yes, South Africa has abolished the code test! One more domino
has
fallen.

How many countries does that make now, compared to those who
still
have it?

It's getting a little difficult to keep track. However, I
think at
least the UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Belgium, the
Netherlands,
Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Singapore,
Australia,
New Zealand, Papua Niugini, Hong Kong and South Africa have
abolished the code test so far. I think that of these only
Austria
and the Netherlands even retain an entry level licence that
doesn't
give HF privileges.

That's only 17 countries, but I expect I may have missed some

out. I make the combined ham population of the above something
over
260,000 (possibly more than half of them no-coders), so
probably
a little less
than half the number of hams in the US.

260,000/670,000 = about 38.9%

Quite a bit less than half.

However, there are well over
50,000 hams in Canada, which is also likely to abolish the code
test
very soon.

Yep. But there are two big points about Canada:

1) The proposal would increase the written test level

This is a biggie. Simply proposing to drop the code test is *not* the
same thing as proposing to drop the code test *and* beef up the
writtens.

IIRC, one of the things proposed in Canada was to make the code test
optional in that if you passed code you didn't need as high a grade on
theory to get the license.

If the nocodetest folks in the USA proposed options like those they
might get a lot more support. But instead, we have folks like NCVEC
telling us we must drop code *and* reduce the written still more.

2) Commentary to the Canadian proposal showed a clear majority
favored the change. That's not the case in the USA, in any survey
done
to date, nor in the commentary to FCC.

Another biggie.

Don't forget that Japan, with a ham population of 1.2 Million
(twice
that of the US, out of maybe a fifth of your general
population), has
long had a no-code HF licence, albeit limited to 10 Watts.

Check your numbers!

Japan has over 3.1 million operator licenses - but they cost
nothing
and never expire, so that number is really the number of ham
operator
licenses issued since 1955, not the number of present-day hams.

Japanese *station* licenses are a bit over 600,000 now, and have
been
dropping for a decade.

The number of new JA licenses has also been dropping.

See the AH0A website.

I'm not sure
how many Japanese hams have a no-code HF licence,

Well over 95%.

but they may even
rival all the new ones so far put together, although the new
guys can use more than 10 Watts! It's probably only a matter of
time
before Japan lets all of their hams use HF anyway.

All Japanese hams have HF privileges *today*. Been that way for
decades.

But for all classes of ham license except 4th class, JA hams have a
code test. And there's no move to change that yet.

And for ten years JA ham license numbers have been dropping fast.
*With* nocodetest HF.

Even without the low power Japanese stations, the number of
no-coders who have full HF privileges right now is probably
about
the same as the
number of no-code Techs in the US.

Close enough.

And if there are already that number of no-code hams on HF without
any
incident, what is the problem with abolishing the code test here?

The USA isn't Japan. Different society, different culture, different
rules.

It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.

That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for
itself.

Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code
test.

The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.

Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?

No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries

So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

73 de Jim, N2EY

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wrote:
Alun L. Palmer wrote:

wrote in news:1108665611.010471.49400
:



A tiny fraction of the number of countries which are members of

the

UN and/or the ITU.

About 10% as a matter of fact. A minority, but not quite my idea

of a

'tiny' fraction. The point is, of course, that we are far from

done

yet. Canada may be next.

One more out of 185 or so snore. Let's see here . . where's my
sliderule . . . if four "dominoes" per year fall, which is about

the

current rate and the rate is maintained it'll be 2046 before the

last

code test requirement is dropped.


Most of those other 170+ are pretty small, although you choose to

mention

the big ones by name of course.


Of course, because first of all it's the big countries which set trends
at least regionally and it's their huge numbers of citizens who would
potentially be most affected by changes in ham radio regs. Which is a
whole different topic from the effects on their existing ham
populations whatever their number.



What you call Old Europe isn't socialist by any rational standards,

unless

you are an extreme neo-con republican? I'll take that as a yes.


Don't because you couldn't be more wrong.



My point is that
governments make these kinds of decisions based on their

culture-based

inclinations in such matters. Which is to say that the former

Soviets,

Brazil, India and China are not socialist giveaway swamps like

Sweden,

France and the rest and are far less likely to quit the code tests.

Last time I checked France and Sweden were capitalist countries and

China

was socialist.


They're both socialist Alun. The only difference being that China uses
the Marx/Lennin model and Sweden is the model for Old Europe socialism.

China is a communist country, and Sweden uses capitalism combined with
substantial welfare elements.

At least that is what the CIA factbook thinks........

- Mike KB3EIA -