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#91
June 19th 05, 02:51 AM
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Dee Flint wrote: "bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: "Dave Heil" wrote in message ink.net... bb wrote: Dave Heil wrote: Dee Flint wrote: "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message rthlink.net... [snip] I and the OM (who is our local club's VHF/UHF SSB guru) have worked hard at trying to get Techs involved with something other than repeater FM. Why? Because they have expressed dissatisfaction with repeater FM. Who hasn't? While we have had some modest success, it's only a small percentage of the Techs who have jumped into these waters. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Have you asked them why they are reluctant to jump into those waters? They are unwilling to commit to the equipment until they have their General, not realizing how much fun they can have in the meantime. I was told, when Novice Enhancement came along, not to pick up a microphone because I would never get good at the Morse Code and advance. Since they've not jumped in, does that change your attitude about them? Nope, we just keep trying to find ways to let them know that there is much more available to them than they realize. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Fair enough. Don't overdo it though, they might think you are "pushy." |
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#92
June 19th 05, 02:58 AM
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Dee Flint wrote: "bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: "bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: I and the OM also worked some of the VHF contest and noticed a very strange thing. Only 10% of the contacts that we made were Technician operators. On the other hand, 80% of them were Extra class operators. So where are all the Techs who are "trapped" in VHF and above because they "can't" pass the code (as some would have us believe)? Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Dee, I'm going to guess (i.e., don't ask me for facts, figures, substantive studies, reports from the FCC/ARRL, etc) that of the Techs that have stayed in amateur radio, most have done so for the emergency communications aspect of the service. As such, they would typically stay on FM. The ones who could learn Morse Code and have had to time to do so have moved up. Those who didn't have the time or couldn't learn it have moved on. There are none who cannot learn the code. Really? Why do you say that? Because they have already learned many things far tougher than the code. What kind of things? However there are those for whom other activities can and should have priority on their time. However that is no excuse for eliminating it as a test element since the same argument can be applied to the theory. You hold a very interesting point of view. You say that since everyone can learn the code, that it must be retained as a test element? No it should be retained because it is one of the basics of amateur radio along with things like Ohm's law, propagation, etc. No other operating mode/skill has a practical pass/fail exam. That makes it arbitrary. I say that it should be removed as a test element because it no longer serves a regulatory purpose. That's a matter of opinion. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Please state the regulatory purpose that a Morse Code exam and CW use provides. |
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#93
June 19th 05, 04:18 AM
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"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message ink.net... "Dave Heil" wrote in message ink.net... My attitude toward many of the current crop of new techs is one bathed upon five years observation, since returning to the U.S. I haven't chased them anywhere. In fact, it has been just the opposite. I've tried to encourage them to use simplex on FM. I've tried to encourage them to try 6 meters along with 432 and 144 MHz SSB and CW. I can't be faulted that they don't act after being encouraged. If these folks are, in fact "trapped" in a world of 2m only FM repeater operation, they have fashioned the trap themselves by not being more curious about the rest of VHF/UHF amateur radio. There are avenues open to them but they aren't participating. Dave K8MN Man does that say it all in a well articulated paragraph. Valid points out there in tech land. The Technician ticket originally was envisioned to enable those that had a technical slant that needed a place to play on the "air". It has degenerated into a defacto "entry level" to present day Ham Radio. What a bummer. I bet a lot of those out there don't know that the original Tech written was exactly the same as the General. The ONLY difference was the General had a 13 WPM cw test. Send and Receive. And the Tech had a 5wpm......and was available by mail. Dan/W4NTI Hello, Dan Been there, didn't want that T-shirt. The danger back when was that if you couldn't pass the 13 WPM, you had two choices: one was work on your code while the other was to take the tech. Some folks back then wanted the General but settled for a tech license when they couldn't pass muster at 13. Unfortunately, if you got on the air (back when, 2 meters was the novice voice band to try and get more activity on 2 meters!) it was possible to *never* work on the code and you were stuck as a tech. Most likely 6 meters was the band of choice as the best front ends might have had a 4.5 dB noise figure on 440 MHz. Even 2 meters wasn't all that busy; Heathkit sixers and twoers were the rigs of the day. I really wan't familiar with any territory above 30 MHz back then. The other choice was to work on your code. The novice license was issued for one year and was not renewable. I took this choice and it took me a while to get my code speed up. When I did take the test and pass 13, I was good for about 18 (which helps when you're nervous and travel 60 miles to take the test administered by the FCC, not a VEC). Of course, there were those that were only interested in VHF and above. Moonbounce was just starting to happen and dx records at 1.2 GHz and above were likely measured in miles. Not many. A very low noise pre-amp on 440 MHz probably had a 4.5 dB noise figure. Once you headed into microwaves, you simply had a diode mixer front end and not only noise, but signal loss as well. Not at all like today. Most vacuum tubes had interelectrode capacitances and delays in getting electrons across the void that prohibited most from operation much above 500 MHz. There were lighthouse tubes, travelling wave tubes, and others (I had a couple of gizmos that looked like Sputnik. I never knew what they were intended for LOL). Funny thing is that if you do get to a reasonable level of code proficiency (as required by the General class and above back when) there was yet another danger: you just might enjoy it  )73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
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#94
June 19th 05, 07:47 AM
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From: "bb" on Sat 18 Jun 2005 17:01
Dee Flint wrote: "Dave Heil" wrote in message bb wrote: Dave Heil wrote: Dee Flint wrote: "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message I agree with you Dave, Of course you do. The Elite always seem to do that... :-) I and the OM (who is our local club's VHF/UHF SSB guru) have worked hard at trying to get Techs involved with something other than repeater FM. Why? They like feeling superior... While we have had some modest success, it's only a small percentage of the Techs who have jumped into these waters. Have you asked them why they are reluctant to jump into those waters? The Elite don't "ask." They COMMAND. :-) Since they've not jumped in, does that change your attitude about them? They are allowed to continue existance. [ho hum] As of 17 Jun 05, there were 722,134 U.S. amateur radio licenses exclusive of Club Calls. Of those, 293,897 were Technician Class making them 40.70 percent of all licensees. There were 55,816 Technican Plus licensees, 7.73 percent of the total. Combined, Technician and Technician Plus licensees number 349,713 or 48.43 percent of the total number of licensees. The Elite (the PCTA Extras, that is) will rationalize that "few of those Techs are active" in an attempt to rationalize that "they don't count." :-) Unfortunately for the Elite, they will soon be the MAJORITY among all U.S. licensees. Dee and the others will "change their attitude" only in a quasi acknowledgement that they MIGHT exist...but wouldn't want their daughters marrying any of them (or equivalent). |
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#95
June 19th 05, 07:50 AM
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From: "Dan/W4NTI" on Sun 19 Jun 2005 00:07
"bb" wrote in message You sir, are nothing but a agitator and a disgrace to ham radio in general, assuming you have a license that is. Godwin invoked. [ :-) ] Attitude-wise, Dan = Stebie. ALL shall march to the same drummer, in ranks, with one voice counting cadence as taught in the Church of St. Hiram. NONE shall speak against the Elite, the PCTA Extras. ONE "service," all wearing the same "uniform." Totalitarian. |
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#96
June 19th 05, 12:24 PM
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"bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: "bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: "bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dee Flint wrote: I and the OM also worked some of the VHF contest and noticed a very strange thing. Only 10% of the contacts that we made were Technician operators. On the other hand, 80% of them were Extra class operators. So where are all the Techs who are "trapped" in VHF and above because they "can't" pass the code (as some would have us believe)? Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Dee, I'm going to guess (i.e., don't ask me for facts, figures, substantive studies, reports from the FCC/ARRL, etc) that of the Techs that have stayed in amateur radio, most have done so for the emergency communications aspect of the service. As such, they would typically stay on FM. The ones who could learn Morse Code and have had to time to do so have moved up. Those who didn't have the time or couldn't learn it have moved on. There are none who cannot learn the code. Really? Why do you say that? Because they have already learned many things far tougher than the code. What kind of things? Not all items apply to all people but here are a few: Walking, talking, reading, writing, riding a bicycle, skating, mathematics, any sport at even the the most rudimentary level, playing any musical instrument at even the most rudimentary level, computer literacy, typing, college courses. The list could go on, but just about everything mental or physical a person has learned is harder than code. However there are those for whom other activities can and should have priority on their time. However that is no excuse for eliminating it as a test element since the same argument can be applied to the theory. You hold a very interesting point of view. You say that since everyone can learn the code, that it must be retained as a test element? No it should be retained because it is one of the basics of amateur radio along with things like Ohm's law, propagation, etc. No other operating mode/skill has a practical pass/fail exam. That makes it arbitrary. All the tests are arbitrary as well as is the material chosen for coverage. I say that it should be removed as a test element because it no longer serves a regulatory purpose. That's a matter of opinion. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Please state the regulatory purpose that a Morse Code exam and CW use provides. The regulator purpose of the exam is that it shows the candidate knows that particular basic of ham radio. No one has ever claimed that CW use or the use of any other mode (SSB, non-code digital) provides a regulatory purpose. However throwing that comment into the discussion illustrates that you wish to get rid of not only the test but the use of CW. So I will not continue to participate in this thread. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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#97
June 19th 05, 12:29 PM
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"Dee Flint" wrote in message news  "bb" wrote in message No one has ever claimed that CW use or the use of any other mode (SSB, non-code digital) provides a regulatory purpose. However throwing that comment into the discussion illustrates that you wish to get rid of not only the test but the use of CW. So I will not continue to participate in this thread. Correction: "So I will not continue replying to your comments in this thread" Some people here will interpret my previous comment to mean I'll not reply to any people in this thread and that may or may not be the case depending on how interesting their comments are. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
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#98
June 19th 05, 01:42 PM
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#99
June 19th 05, 04:06 PM
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In article .com, bb wrote:
Maybe they are on FM yet not trapped at all. Maybe if you let Dee and Dan finish their thoughts on why they think the Techs are trapped we would have something worth discussing. My experience, which is now 8 years out of date, is that the techs did not own the kind of station that you need to operate ssb or cw in a contest. We would go to a friends house who had a wider range of bands (6m,2m,220,440 and 1.2gHz) than we had at home and work the contest from their using his call sign. It was quite fun, he had a barbecue in the summer and pizza in the fall. One guy (a tech) would show up with a commander 2m amp at 1pm, spend an hour getting ready and would not leave it except for "nature breaks" and grabbing some food for the entire contest unless someone asked to work 2m. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (077)-424-1667 IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 VoN Skype: mendelsonfamily. Looking for work as a CTO or consultant in handheld gaming, large systems development, handheld device construction, etc. See U.S. patent applications 20050108591, 20050107165. |
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#100
June 19th 05, 05:10 PM
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Dee Flint wrote: "bb" wrote in message oups.com... Dave Heil wrote: bb wrote: Dave Heil wrote: Dee Flint wrote: "Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message thlink.net... [snip] Why do I contest? To improve my score by improving my station and myself. Its as simple as that. Have a good day PS; I worked a bunch of sporadic skip yesterday on six meters in the June VHF contest.....with 8 watts and a 3 ele yagi at 20'. It's all a matter of perspective. Dan/W4NTI I and the OM also worked some of the VHF contest and noticed a very strange thing. Only 10% of the contacts that we made were Technician operators. On the other hand, 80% of them were Extra class operators. So where are all the Techs who are "trapped" in VHF and above because they "can't" pass the code (as some would have us believe)? Oh, they're still trapped on VHF, Dee. Most of 'em are so trapped that they know only one mode--FM and do all of their operating via repeaters. What a wunnerful attitude you have toward Techs, Oh Mighty DXer. And people have to ask who chased away the Techs. I guess the only time you would embrace a Tech is if he were calling you out of band on 6M. Hi! I don't embrace radio amateurs at all, "bb". A firm handshake is good enough for me. That's not what the French do. They kiss you on both cheeks, especially for handing out contacts and QSL cards for out of band contacts. My attitude toward many of the current crop of new techs is one bathed upon five years observation, since returning to the U.S. I haven't chased them anywhere. In fact, it has been just the opposite. I've tried to encourage them to use simplex on FM. I've tried to encourage them to try 6 meters along with 432 and 144 MHz SSB and CW. I can't be faulted that they don't act after being encouraged. If these folks are, in fact "trapped" in a world of 2m only FM repeater operation, they have fashioned the trap themselves by not being more curious about the rest of VHF/UHF amateur radio. There are avenues open to them but they aren't participating. Dave K8MN A penny for your thoughts. Maybe they are on FM yet not trapped at all. Maybe if you let Dee and Dan finish their thoughts on why they think the Techs are trapped we would have something worth discussing. I have never said that they were trapped. It happens to be a belief expressed by some of the anti-code test people that they are trapped above 30mhz. I've always contended that any such trap is one of their own perception. That explains why you've put quotes around the word "trapped" in your description of those Techs. My opinion (that means it's my opinion and I don't have to spend weeks at the Library of Congress to back up anything that I might say or forever be known as a liar and/or a gay man) is that those who joined for emergency communications purposes are perfectly happy with FM, and do not consider themselves as "trapped." All the "encouragement" in the world doesn't change their perspective. They're getting what they want out of amateur radio. What they don't need is to be denigrated by the Extras that think they need to do more to be a "real" ham. I do not denigrate any one based on their license class. For those who are getting all they want out of VHF FM, I am happy for them. But I have no patience for those who want additional privileges without passing whatever is the license requirement of the day. I know a couple of Techs who have been waiting to get a General until the code test is removed but they have been waiting for ten years. Wasting 10 years is foolish. Lack of patience and describing them as foolish does indicate your feelings for them. Waiting is worth it to them or they wouldn't do it. Is it so hard for you to consider that they really, really don't want to learn THE code? |
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