wrote:
From: "bb" on Sun 19 Jun 2005 08:50


wrote:
From: "Dan/W4NTI" on Sun 19 Jun 2005 00:07


"bb" wrote in message

You sir, are nothing but a agitator and a disgrace to ham radio in general,
assuming you have a license that is.

Godwin invoked. [ :-) ]

Attitude-wise, Dan = Stebie.

ALL shall march to the same drummer, in ranks, with one voice
counting cadence as taught in the Church of St. Hiram. NONE
shall speak against the Elite, the PCTA Extras.

ONE "service," all wearing the same "uniform." Totalitarian.


Len, it looks like Dan and Dee have bailed out on civil, legitimate
discourse on amateur radio policy. Dave has made himself pretty scarce
as well.

Maybe there's been some band openings to France on 6m?

Unfortunately, the opening was 200 KHz above their operating privs.
Hi!

Dan and Dave and the remaining living PCTAs haven't much changed
since '98 in here. They command a consensus of common thought;
i.e., CONCEDE to THEIR consensus, none others.

You can have any opinion you like as long as it's theirs.

I see there's a Jim Miccolis N2EY posting below. I haven't gotten to
it yet, as I'm saving the best for last. Hope he doesn't disappoint as
he has ever since he made the comment, "A Morse Exam would be a barrier
to CW use."

Oh, oh...dat put Sister Nun of the Above into ruler-spank mode
again. She demand posting quote of where, when she make dat.
Dis be court of law! Bang da gavel, heah come de judge, heah
come de judge...

I think, after she stated that ALL exams are arbitrary, that she
decided to duck and run. Apparently, none of the PCTA heard her
remark, which included the Morse/Farnsworth exam. Right now she's
zagging across the lawn in Newington, looking for sanctuary.

Jimmie can't bear to acknowledge that the current percentage of
Technician and Technican Plus class licensees are now at 48.4
percent of all individual (non-club) licensees in the USA.
Jimmie has to rationalize that with all sorts of rather irrelevant
"excuses" common to the Elitist PCTA viewpoint of all those
commonfolk not embracing morsemanship with loving open arms.

Jim is somewhat frail. He's much better off not thinking about it.

ARS (aka Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society) is in full flower in
here, their self-appointed self-righteous "representatives"
damning all who do not respect their mighty elitist rule. The
ARS only has "fun" when all licensees do as the Elites do, that
is, doing narrowband morse beeping.

And one keeps asking me where the Techs have gone. Hi!

The LAW is the LAW and NO LAWS CAN EVER BE CHANGED according to
these "guardians of amateur paradise." Code test MUST remain.
PCTA say so. No arguments against. Period. [sigh...]

There must still be some of them working for the FCC.

Happy Father's Day to you, Brian.

And to you, Len.

"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


I was told, when Novice Enhancement came along, not to pick up a
microphone because I would never get good at the Morse Code and
advance.


That was good advice. I did the same thing. I had my Novice for 3 months,
skipped the Technician, and got the General. I could have got on 2m AM as
a Novice. I had a Gonset II on load from Civil Defense. I flat refused to
do so until I got the General. Glad I did.

Dan/W4NTI

"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
ink.net...

My attitude toward many of the current crop of new techs is one bathed
upon five years observation, since returning to the U.S. I haven't
chased
them anywhere. In fact, it has been just the opposite. I've tried to
encourage them to use simplex on FM. I've tried to encourage them to
try
6 meters along with 432 and 144 MHz SSB and CW. I can't be faulted
that
they don't act after being encouraged. If these folks are, in fact
"trapped" in a world of 2m only FM repeater operation, they have
fashioned
the trap themselves by not being more curious about the rest of VHF/UHF
amateur radio. There are avenues open to them but they aren't
participating.

Dave K8MN


Man does that say it all in a well articulated paragraph. Valid points
out
there
in tech land.

Indeed it does. David has articulated, and Dan has agreed that a Tech
really isn't worth much as an amateur if they don't do the things that
Dave, Dan and Dee want them to be doing. I'm sure that your attitudes
spill over into your communication with those unworthy Techs.


Not only a Dip****, but a dumbass as well, eh N0IMD? Just keep making up
what you want.

The FCC wants the Technician to UPGRADE. So do we......whats wrong with
that?

Dip****/Dumbass


The Technician ticket originally was envisioned to enable those that had
a
technical
slant that needed a place to play on the "air". It has degenerated
into a
defacto
"entry level" to present day Ham Radio. What a bummer.

Degenerated? Dan, I'd like to introduce you to the FCC sometime. It
was the FCC that turned the Technician license into your disdained
entry level to present day "Ham Radio."

Sure was.....and the FCC has degenerated into a home for Lawyers sucking on
the Federal tit. Got a problem with that? Truth is truth. The FCC
makes the
rules...yep they do. And they haven't a clue. Yep thats true too. Argue
that one.


I bet a lot of those out there don't know that the original Tech written
was
exactly
the same as the General. The ONLY difference was the General had a 13
WPM
cw test. Send and Receive. And the Tech had a 5wpm......and was
available
by
mail.

Dan/W4NTI

Thanks for the insight into the "Mind of Dan."


Just tellin the truth and you cain't stand it.

Dan/W4NTI

Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dee Flint wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dee Flint wrote:

I and the OM also worked some of the VHF contest and noticed a
very
strange
thing. Only 10% of the contacts that we made were Technician
operators.
On
the other hand, 80% of them were Extra class operators. So
where
are
all
the Techs who are "trapped" in VHF and above because they
"can't"
pass
the
code (as some would have us believe)?

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee, I'm going to guess (i.e., don't ask me for facts, figures,
substantive studies, reports from the FCC/ARRL, etc) that of the
Techs
that have stayed in amateur radio, most have done so for the
emergency
communications aspect of the service. As such, they would
typically
stay on FM.

The ones who could learn Morse Code and have had to time to do so
have
moved up. Those who didn't have the time or couldn't learn it
have
moved on.


There are none who cannot learn the code.

Really? Why do you say that?

Because they have already learned many things far tougher than the
code.

What kind of things?


Not all items apply to all people but here are a few: Walking, talking,
reading, writing, riding a bicycle, skating, mathematics, any sport at
even
the the most rudimentary level, playing any musical instrument at even
the
most rudimentary level, computer literacy, typing, college courses. The
list could go on, but just about everything mental or physical a person
has
learned is harder than code.

Can you play the string bass?

There's an FCC sticker on teh back of my stereo. What if the FCC were
to make it a requirement that you have to pass a string bass exam in
order to play music on your stereo?

However there are those for whom
other activities can and should have priority on their time.
However
that
is no excuse for eliminating it as a test element since the same
argument
can be applied to the theory.

You hold a very interesting point of view. You say that since
everyone
can learn the code, that it must be retained as a test element?

No it should be retained because it is one of the basics of amateur
radio
along with things like Ohm's law, propagation, etc.

No other operating mode/skill has a practical pass/fail exam. That
makes it arbitrary.


All the tests are arbitrary as well as is the material chosen for
coverage.

They are?

I say that it should be removed as a test element because it no
longer
serves a regulatory purpose.

That's a matter of opinion.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Please state the regulatory purpose that a Morse Code exam and CW use
provides.


The regulator purpose of the exam is that it shows the candidate knows
that
particular basic of ham radio.

But why no other practical operating exam for other modes?

No one has ever claimed that CW use or the use of any other mode (SSB,
non-code digital) provides a regulatory purpose.

No mode is mandated, yet we have a practical operating pass/fail exam
for one mode. That is arbitrary.

However throwing that
comment into the discussion illustrates that you wish to get rid of not
only
the test but the use of CW.

Dee, not at all. I wish only the arbitrary Morse/Farnsworth Exams to
be retired.

But recognize that the FCC mandates the use no particular mode. You
can use CW all you want or not us it at all. So why is there a
practical operating exam for this one mode but not all other modes?

And why is CW use allowed by No-Code Technicians on VHF, but not HF?

Why did Jim Miccolis N2EY say about Hans restructuring proposal, that a
CW exam would be a barrier to CW use?

So I will not continue to participate in this thread.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

I understand how uneasy it must make you to have to face the truth of
arbitrary licensing requirements and still advocate a Morse/Farnsworth
Exam.


Ok, one more round but that's it. All the licensing requirements are
arbitrary. Every single one of them. There are several radio services for
which no testing is required. So if some services do not need testing, then
it is arbitrary for those that do. However the goals and purposes of
amateur radio make it desireable to test candidates for these licenses.

Has Jim approved these thoughts of yours?

If you wish to discontinue healthy, legitimate discourse with respect
to amateur policy, I understand. It is not for the faint of heart.

Best of Luck, Brian


The problem with the Morse discussion is that every possible conceivable
argument on either side has been aired dozens, if not hundreds, of times.
It is not healthy to continue discussing this policy issue. No new data
comes to light. No new rational has come up. There's no point in rehashing
the same issues. Sooner or later the FCC will rule and we'll all have to
live with the consequences good or bad.

If the result is as the NCTA state that it will be, i.e. a big wave of new
hams plus a big wave of hams upgrading and getting on HF, just watch the DX
stations, especially the rare ones, hide down on CW even more than they are
now. If you exclude Japan, the US has more amateur radio operators than the
rest of the world combined. If the bands get as busy as the NCTAs imply
they will from this rush of new and upgrading hams, a lot of us will be
drifting even more to CW just to find some room.

I'm not stating that there will be hordes of unwashed nor waves of
intelligent technogeniuses. But if the code exam remains, I don't
think there's much hope of anything positive happening.

On the other hand, if the PCTAs are correct, i.e. the impact will be
insignificant just as other changes of the recent past have been, then there
is NO reason to change the requirements. Changes that have little to no
noticeable impact aren't worth the bother of implementing.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Of course, I disagree. I think it is worthwhile to have regulations
and a licensing structure which makes sense, regardless of negligible
impacts.

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
ink.net...

My attitude toward many of the current crop of new techs is one bathed
upon five years observation, since returning to the U.S. I haven't
chased
them anywhere. In fact, it has been just the opposite. I've tried to
encourage them to use simplex on FM. I've tried to encourage them to
try
6 meters along with 432 and 144 MHz SSB and CW. I can't be faulted
that
they don't act after being encouraged. If these folks are, in fact
"trapped" in a world of 2m only FM repeater operation, they have
fashioned
the trap themselves by not being more curious about the rest of VHF/UHF
amateur radio. There are avenues open to them but they aren't
participating.

Dave K8MN


Man does that say it all in a well articulated paragraph. Valid points
out
there
in tech land.

The Technician ticket originally was envisioned to enable those that had
a
technical
slant that needed a place to play on the "air". It has degenerated
into
a
defacto
"entry level" to present day Ham Radio. What a bummer.

I bet a lot of those out there don't know that the original Tech written
was
exactly
the same as the General. The ONLY difference was the General had a 13
WPM
cw test. Send and Receive. And the Tech had a 5wpm......and was
available
by
mail.

Dan/W4NTI



Hello, Dan

Been there, didn't want that T-shirt. The danger back when was that if
you
couldn't pass the 13 WPM, you had two choices: one was work on your code
while the other was to take the tech.

Some folks back then wanted the General but settled for a tech license
when
they couldn't pass muster at 13. Unfortunately, if you got on the air
(back
when, 2 meters was the novice voice band to try and get more activity on 2
meters!) it was possible to *never* work on the code and you were stuck as
a
tech. Most likely 6 meters was the band of choice as the best front ends
might have had a 4.5 dB noise figure on 440 MHz. Even 2 meters wasn't all
that busy; Heathkit sixers and twoers were the rigs of the day. I really
wan't familiar with any territory above 30 MHz back then.

The other choice was to work on your code. The novice license was issued
for one year and was not renewable. I took this choice and it took me a
while to get my code speed up. When I did take the test and pass 13, I
was
good for about 18 (which helps when you're nervous and travel 60 miles to
take the test administered by the FCC, not a VEC).

Of course, there were those that were only interested in VHF and above.
Moonbounce was just starting to happen and dx records at 1.2 GHz and above
were likely measured in miles. Not many. A very low noise pre-amp on 440
MHz probably had a 4.5 dB noise figure. Once you headed into microwaves,
you simply had a diode mixer front end and not only noise, but signal loss
as well. Not at all like today. Most vacuum tubes had interelectrode
capacitances and delays in getting electrons across the void that
prohibited
most from operation much above 500 MHz. There were lighthouse tubes,
travelling wave tubes, and others (I had a couple of gizmos that looked
like
Sputnik. I never knew what they were intended for LOL).

Funny thing is that if you do get to a reasonable level of code
proficiency
(as required by the General class and above back when) there was yet
another
danger: you just might enjoy it )


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA




Yep indeed....it was "up or out". Novice good for 1 year, non renewable
and can't get it again. Talk about incentive licensing.

A very good friend mine, Ray, K8DEN recently passed away. I am so happy
he finally was able to get on HF. Thats right as a 5wpm General. He was
like you said, just could NOT learn the code. Whether physical or mental I
don't know.

Yes indeed VHF back then was tough. But it was fun. I had it both ways. I
was on CW on HF and phone on 2m AM. Loved them both.

It is much easier for the beginning ham now than it was for us Jim. Perhaps
it is too easy and that is the problem.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:

The FCC wants the Technician to UPGRADE. So do we......whats wrong with
that?

Dip****/Dumbass

Perhaps the FCC should sent out invitations to upgrade if they want so
desperately for it to happen.

"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

I and the OM also worked some of the VHF contest and noticed a very
strange thing. Only 10% of the contacts that we made were
Technician
operators. On the other hand, 80% of them were Extra class
operators.
So
where are all the Techs who are "trapped" in VHF and above because
they
"can't" pass the code (as some would have us believe)?

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Hey Dee,

Good question actually. Perhaps they are part of the vast majority of
hams
that are inactive.

More likely they are all "stuck" on FM and have not a clue what else
is
going on with V/Uhf. What a shame.

Dan/W4NTI

Ah, yes. The Shameful, Clueless Techs. With attitudes like yours,
it's no wonder they don't hang around.


I don't recall anyone on here, other than you "bb", using the word
Shameful
or
Clueless regarding the Technician licensees.

I do. You used the phrases, "not a clue" and "what a shame" to
describe Techs who chose to be "stuck" on FM.

All I see is folks stating
they don't
understand why the Techs don't take full advantage of their full license
privileges.

You go beyond that. You imply that there's something wrong with them.

You sir, are nothing but a agitator and a disgrace to ham radio in
general,
assuming
you have a license that is.

Dan/W4NTI

You are the disgrace, Dan. Your bad attitude about Techs says it all.

Let me guess... You're an Extra, right?


Not a clue as to what else is out there.
What a shame the dont.

That is what I meant and you know it.

Yep I am an extra, so what? I've been one since I passed in in front of
the FCC in 1977. Again so what?

I spend most of my time talking with, as you think, lower class amateurs.
Most of my SSB on HF is in the General sub bands. Most of my CW is the
same. ALL of my VHF is in the Tech sub bands, and I operate there a LOT.

Don't come off with this crap that I have a problem with the Tech ticket.
Screw you N0IMD.

Dan/W4NTI

wrote in message
ups.com...
From: "Dan/W4NTI" on Sun 19 Jun 2005 00:07


"bb" wrote in message

You sir, are nothing but a agitator and a disgrace to ham radio in
general,
assuming you have a license that is.

Godwin invoked. [ :-) ]

Attitude-wise, Dan = Stebie.



ALL shall march to the same drummer, in ranks, with one voice
counting cadence as taught in the Church of St. Hiram. NONE
shall speak against the Elite, the PCTA Extras.

ONE "service," all wearing the same "uniform." Totalitarian.




Hey Lennie....did that beating you took with the lye soap leave any
permanent scars?

I've figured this guy out folks. He was a barracks lawyer that got caught
up in several barracks parties. A total loser.

Dan/W4NTI

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
news

"bb" wrote in message


No one has ever claimed that CW use or the use of any other mode (SSB,
non-code digital) provides a regulatory purpose. However throwing that
comment into the discussion illustrates that you wish to get rid of not
only the test but the use of CW. So I will not continue to participate
in this thread.


Correction:

"So I will not continue replying to your comments in this thread"

Some people here will interpret my previous comment to mean I'll not reply
to any people in this thread and that may or may not be the case depending
on how interesting their comments are.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




After he got cozy with Lennie the lizard I decided he is here to
agitate....oh...didn't someone say that already?

Dan/W4NTI

"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...


Dee Flint wrote:

I and the OM also worked some of the VHF contest and noticed a very
strange
thing. Only 10% of the contacts that we made were Technician
operators.
On
the other hand, 80% of them were Extra class operators. So where are
all
the Techs who are "trapped" in VHF and above because they "can't" pass
the
code (as some would have us believe)?

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee, I'm going to guess (i.e., don't ask me for facts, figures,
substantive studies, reports from the FCC/ARRL, etc) that of the Techs
that have stayed in amateur radio, most have done so for the emergency
communications aspect of the service. As such, they would typically
stay on FM.

The ones who could learn Morse Code and have had to time to do so have
moved up. Those who didn't have the time or couldn't learn it have
moved on.

It's nice to see Miss Manners finally noticing something amiss in the
ARS.


"bb" is just full of all sorts of assumptions, ain't he boys and girls?

Using his logic then all us "higher" class operators need to get out of
EMCOM, eh?

I'll be sure to tell the Extra class Emergency Net Control operator next
time I see her.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan, you're welcome to tell her anything you want. She's probably
already aware that you usually get it wrong anyway.

Do you have trouble chewing gum and walking Bryan?

Dan/W4NTI