bb wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote:

snippage

Way too many people seem to think that you plunk down the money, and
you are an instant contester.


Way too many people? I didn't think contestors were that numerous.

We have many hundreds every QSO party. And since much less than half
submit logs, the total participation is much higher. Some people are
just in the thing for fun.

And no, I don't know why they don't.


In similar fashion, cost is relative. A $5000 station is small
change to some and beyond others' wildest dreams. Same for
many other spending levels.


Just a few years back, having a dedicated computer in the
shack was a major expense. Not any more!




I believe there are two general groups of contesters:

1. People who like the head-to-head competition on a
personal level and
are not motivated by having large amounts of expensive
hardware. These
people focus on operating skill, knowledge and strategy instead of equipment.

-and-

2. People who will do anything legal to maximize their score,
including
spending huge amounts of money on rigs, antennas and any other hardware which gives them an advantage.


I disagree strongly!

I think there are many more basic groups, from the casual types
just putting in a few hours and maybe picking up a new state
or country, to the all-out multi-multis, to the middle-of-the-
pack folks, to the special-interest ones (like the QRP types
with incredible antenna farms).

On top of this is the fact that the superstations require
operating skill, knowledge and strategy just like the 100 W
and dipole folks.




Both groups have good points and neither is superior to the
other.


Agreed!

In fact the superstations need the little guys in order to make super
scores. And the little guys need the superstations.




What
is wrong with contesting today is both groups are combined into one when
it comes to competing, and that is hurting contesting.


Well, there's division by power level, by multiop vs. single, and
packet spotting.



I propose that there be two basic classes of competition:

1. A Limited Class which clearly spells out maximum hardware,
i.e. one
radio, one antenna per band, no receiving while transmitting,
and perhaps some others,

-and-

2. An Unlimited Class which allows anything legal.

Within those two classes there could be subclasses for power
level and
number of operators, but the basic hardware definitions would
remain the
same. This would allow an operator to choose his class and know he is
competing against others who are equipped similarly.


The trouble is where the lines are drawn.

What does "one radio" mean? Is a second receiver allowed? How
about if the second receiver is built into the rig?

One antenna per band could work a hardship on even some modest
stations. At my previous location I had an inverted V for 80/40
that could be made to work on 20. Also had a 20 meter vertical
with elevated radials. 100 W homebrew transceiver. Hardly a
superstation but I did pretty well.

On 20 the vertical was usually better, but sometimes the
inverted
V would do the trick. "One antenna per band" would eliminate
that.

The whole concept is way way way to complicated. Also
unenforceable.
Will the contest committee send out Hamcops to ensure
compliance?


Who enforces the present rules? Power level, packet spotting, etc.?

Good question. The answer is it is a gentleman's agreement, and you
trust the person to abide by the rules. So you make the rules as
rock-bottom simple as possible. Rules like no receiving while
transmitting, are simply not enforceable. Ideas such as monoband
antennas are going to knock a lot of people right out of the contest -
unless of course they decide to cheat, as is the one receiver idea.


But, but, but...

If the ARRL DX desk don't approve it ain't ham radio. They approved
the Frenchmen's excursion outside of France's 6M band!!!

Cmon Brian. I don't have an idae of how that is germane to this topic.
I mean all topics drift and such, but this seemed to be a good one
without your feud with Dave about that subject.


Finally, the idea of separating the contesters by limited and unlimited
classes is incredibly counterproductive. So these small number of
superoperaters are just going to work among themselves and then sign
off, I suppose.


It is common knowledge that many small contestors are ther to snag DX
and nothing else.


Whenever I hear rules change suggestions, I ask how this is going to
affect the person suggesting the changes. Funny how it is always to give
this person a big advantage, even when they claim they are just trying
to level the playing field.


At the end of the day, the big $$$ stations win. Everyone else
supplies contacts.

When wasn't it so?


This is just a punitive plan toward the big stations.


So you think the big $$$ stations won't go for it?


One time I listened to one of the high-powered, high scoring stations
noting how *they* should get extra points for listening to all those low
power stations with the weak signals!


Yep. Recall the many, many, many times you've had to say to the qrp
station, "Say again all after xxx."


The present hardware situation reminds me of a boxer who has
acquired a
set of brass knuckles but who still wants to fight those not so
equipped. That's not right and neither is contesting in its
present form.


I don't see it that way at all. I think we need an "iron" class for a
very different reason.

One thing that makes a contest fun (for me) is the competition.
It's radiosport, pure and simple. I think the message that needs
to be emphasized more is that you don't need a superstation to
have a good time.

No you don't.

But it takes more than the average station to win.

Define average? I've got an IC-745 and used a ladder line fed dipole
(96 feet long @50 feet high) to work the NEQP from Pennsylvania. Used a
MFJ-949E tuner on it.


Didja win?

I didn't take top, but I finished high enough to get some wallpaper
(3rd in my class to be specific)


Total outlay was around 350 dollars, and this has got to be a below
average station setup if there ever was one, especially by these
"contest standards".


Far, far, far below. Revisit the notion when you've got that 746 and a
tri-bander at 60'.

That is the bottom of "average."

I'm kinda drooling over the new 756 pro III at the moment....


But I put in a big booming signal to New England, and was definitely
limited by my own skills, (still working on 'em) and not my below
average station setup. Got a certificate one year.


Ahem. Scan it and post it in place of Steve's photo. Please.
Somebody...


I know too many hams with "100W and dipole" stations who think
contesting with such a setup isn't practical.

100 watts and a dipole is only about 90 percent of contesters!

And they don't win.

Sometimes. Depends on the class and their skills.


What? What kind of contesting are you thinking about?


I prefer the State QSO parties. We have a number of classes,

High power, medium power, QRP. We have a CW class with QRP and
medium/high power. We have classes for rover and mobile.

Now that I am the chairman of ours, we'll be adding digital modes.

We encourage the development of operating skills by giving multipliers
for the more difficult modes, such as mobile and QRP. This encourages
people to work those more difficult operations.


People have a tendency to operate with the stations that they have,
save for portable operations. Sounds like a "Well Duh!" statement, but
it is what most of us have to offer.


People have a tendency to improve their stations....

It has been my experience from being on the air, and among those I know
personally that most hams have a fairly modest setup. 100 watts, maybe a
g5rv, and a competent but not spectacular rig. Obviously that isn't
everyone, but it seems do describe teh great majority.

Of course, mayber the really big stations won't descend to talk to me! ;^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

KØHB wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote


Who do ya want - a impatient knob twiddler with a FTDX 9000
and an antenna
farm of (insert your favorite antenna here), or a good
capable contester with
say a dipole and an IC-746.

Your example is specious, Mike. Generally the contester who builds a
competition grade station has also invested in building the
skills and
techniques to take advantage of the capabilities they have
sought in their station design.

Do you think so Hans? I have examples of just that, and it
has been my
personal experience. Your statement is true as far as it
goes, but I've
seen what happens when the newbies have access to the
competition grade
setups, as sometimes happens during events such as Field day


The difference is that they didn't build that station themselves.

And that experience is *exactly* why I am convinced that the operator
is so much more important than the setup.

I'm willing to admit I am incorrect, but not unless someone can come up
with an alternate explanation that hold water.

The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent
setup, and the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that
the new or less experienced have a lot of trouble with.

Specious, or wrong, I'd love to hear the alternatives.


So many of the newbies I have worked with come in with the
expectations
of sitting down, throwing the tuning knob around, and calling,
then
waiting for the pileup. They get frustrated with the work that
you have to put into the more modest setups.


I think one of the main purposes of FD is that sort of
education. Let folks try out new (to them) rigs, new antennas,
operating techniques, etc., and see what *really* works. And
let the newbies see how it's done.

Yup. It worked for me, and I've seen it work for others. We've gottem a
couple new hams (or gotten inactive ones back) every FD I've been at.


Many times we are told that the station "isn't working".
And of course it is.


Cockpit trouble. Short-circuit between the headphones.


An experienced and patient operator can start making QSO's
immediately. One of the newbies decided that he wanted to use
the QRO
station and referred to the GOTA as a "toy station".


"younger and more capable minds"....

I've had similar experiences on FD. Some folks think they're
doing well to make QSOs on SSB at a certain rate with a beam and 100 W
transceiver, with an op and a logger. Exhausted after an hour or two,
they wander over to the CW tent and find me working
them at 2, 3 or more times their rate, with a dipole, "old"
transceiver, and no logger.

The reactions when presented with a manual transmatch were
priceless, too.


Those QRO stations are powerful competition for lower powered
ones. It
is not terribly difficult to twiddle the knob, start calling
CQ, and
getting return calls. Problem is, it doesn't tend to make you a good contester.


That's why it might be a good idea - next year - to run all ~100 W
setups.

We did last year, and I liked it. Made almost as many points too.

- mike KB3EIA -

"Michael Coslo" wrote


The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent setup, and
the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that the new or less
experienced have a lot of trouble with.


This assertion is different from your original question which implied that
100W/dipole stations are manned by better operators than "knob twiddlers" found
at better equipped stations. My assertion is that competition-grade STATIONS
("competition grade" does not mean "most expensive") are built and operated by
competition-grade radiomen. Witness K1TTT, KC1XX, W3LPL, W0AIH, N0AT, K0KX,
K3LR, W7RM, etc., etc.

dit dit
de Hans, K0HB

"KØHB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Michael Coslo" wrote


The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent setup,
and the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that the new
or less experienced have a lot of trouble with.


This assertion is different from your original question which implied that
100W/dipole stations are manned by better operators than "knob twiddlers"
found at better equipped stations. My assertion is that competition-grade
STATIONS ("competition grade" does not mean "most expensive") are built
and operated by competition-grade radiomen. Witness K1TTT, KC1XX, W3LPL,
W0AIH, N0AT, K0KX, K3LR, W7RM, etc., etc.

dit dit
de Hans, K0HB

wow, first in the list! now you are going to make my head swell.

"Dave" wrote


wow, first in the list! now you are going to make my head swell.


If you want to stay in that position, just don't snuggle up too close to my run
QRG. BSEG

73, de Hans, K0HB

wrote:


You mean the beepers are all just dildoes?!? Good grief!

Maybe Dr. Ruth Westheimer needs to be informed of this!?!



Well, there HAS to be worse jobs than that! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:

"Michael Coslo" wrote


The unskilled operators don't do very well even with an excellent setup, and
the skilled operators do well with a more mundane setup that the new or less
experienced have a lot of trouble with.



This assertion is different from your original question which implied that
100W/dipole stations are manned by better operators than "knob twiddlers" found
at better equipped stations.

It was a question, Hans. Not an implication. It isn't an either or
proposition either. I'd be purdy dum to think that those who have more
mundane setups have better ops than those at the better stations.

And I would still want to have that good op with a 100 watt station
than the not so good op at the "contest station".

Obviously the best setup is the good op at the good station.




My assertion is that competition-grade STATIONS
("competition grade" does not mean "most expensive") are built and operated by
competition-grade radiomen. Witness K1TTT, KC1XX, W3LPL, W0AIH, N0AT, K0KX,
K3LR, W7RM, etc., etc.

Of course. But this whole tangent of the thread was based on my
assertion that between the good operator and the good equipment, your
best to side with the good operator.

Kinda like buying that huge Craftsman (or Snap-On or whatever) tool set
and cabinet doesn't make you a master mechanic. However, many master
mechanics have that same tool set.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Michael Coslo" wrote

But this whole tangent of the thread was based on my assertion that between
the good operator and the good equipment, your best to side with the good
operator.


Presuming all else is nominally equal, that's true. But "all else" is seldom
"equal". Which is why a world-class op like K0SR with his black-hole city-lot
QTH is never invited to WRTC, passed over in favor of regional-class ops from
more propagationally favored locales.

73, de Hans, K0HB

From: "bb" on Wed 22 Jun 2005 15:48


wrote:
From: "bb" on Tues 21 Jun 2005 03:15

wrote:
From: "Dan/W4NTI" on Sun 19 Jun 2005 22:46
"Jim Hampton" wrote in message


The twoers and sixers were rock-bound. Anyway, he said that he wasn't
familiar with VHF.

"Familiarity with VHF" wasn't needed. ALL that counted was getting
the morse code speed UP...that yielded absolute knowledge of all
theory thus guaranteeing rank-status-privilege.

We're trying to change that, all in vain. Only the actuarial tables
bring about change in the ARS.

Well, that's how it goes... :-)

I designed and built an external VFO for a few Sixers. Worked fine.
One of the recipients was showing an olde-fahrt extra how it
operated and olde-fahrt said "Nice, did you build it?" "No," said
my friend and, pointing to me, "He did." "THAT'S ILLEGAL!" shouted
the olde-fahrt. Heh heh heh...the same anal attitudes existed four
decades ago as they do now.

In RRAP, we have the uniformed, and the uninformed!

The "uniformed and the uninformed!" I LIKE that phrase. Apt. :-)


You forgot to mention the changes in elevation over changes in
distance!!!

Heh heh heh. In northern Illinois the elevation changes amount
to +/- a yard. Not even close to bragging rights... :-)

Darnit!!! We're supposed to hear about how it was uphill both ways
juss like the real hammes claim.

That was for a COMMERCIAL license, Brian. No braggin' rights
allowed in here on that. :-)

However, to kill time waiting for the return train, I saw a
matinee of "Oklahoma." Sat in the balcony, undisturbed. That
was good for a change of a couple stories in height! :-)

Did you try a "balcony" antenna while there?

Nobody to communicate with. Was a slow day for matinees, I guess.


Too bad it was a sunny day in Chicago. No snow to brag to
anyone ("uphill both ways through"). Passed no problem,
even with the interruption of a fire drill in the Federal
Building halfway through the test.

No real hamme could have survived that.

You're probably right.


[a lot of the anony-mousies won't know what we're talking
about on this subject...they weren't here to see some of the
astounding bragging going on by the late Dick Carroll and
others in here]



Dick was not unique unto himself. There are plenty of Dick imposters
in the ARS.

You mean the beepers are all just dildoes?!? Good grief!

Maybe Dr. Ruth Westheimer needs to be informed of this!?!

Brrrr...what a group!

From: "bb" on Wed 22 Jun 2005 17:03


wrote:
bb Jun 19, 10:51 pm show options
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"bb" wrote in message
oups.com...

It's nice to see Miss Manners finally noticing something amiss n the
ARS.

"bb" is just full of all sorts of assumptions, ain't he boys and girls?

Using his logic then all us "higher" class operators need to get out of
EMCOM, eh?

I'll be sure to tell the Extra class Emergency Net Control operator next
time I see her.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan, you're welcome to tell her anything you want. She's probably
already aware that you usually get it wrong anyway.

Do you have trouble chewing gum and walking Bryan?

I don't chew gum. I don't smoke, either. Did you have a point?

Probably on his head...



He should have it biopsied. Save him an early date with the actuarial
tables.

Sounds like a plan! Ol' Danny is getting worse. Now he thinks
I am claiming "combat action." Maybe I'll claim SEVEN of them
just to keep him happy? It works for another. :-)

The Vietnam War ended 30 years ago. I guess this post-traumatic
stress stuff really gets to some...and lasts a long time...

More and more I'm thinking the PCTA extras are going bonkers
from too much beeping.