wrote:
http://www.getboost.com/dz/sienna.htm


My thoughts.

First, the unit has a lot of promise. While I think I prefer separate
components between the computer and the rig for flexibility, this setup
might just be fun to use.

Next, I don't buy the teeny florescent screen rationale. My idea of the
modern integrated rig is more along the line of looking like a laptop,
with a folding large screen on top of the RF portions of the box. But
that's just me.

Interesting that they chose an LDG autotuner. This is a concept that
might be expanded upon.

Don't like the computer interface screenshot.

I really hope that they do well. I do think the price point is too
high. I would be willing to pay extra for an American made unit, but 3K
for the entry level, and 6K for the works unit is pretty high.

Unless of course, the rig has outstanding performance. I would love to
see some test results.

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not. I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

73

Steve, K4YZ

K4YZ wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:


Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....


I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not. I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

There aren't nearly as many components built in the U.S. as in the past,
Steve. Even back in the late seventies and early eighties, most solid
state devices were produced in Mexico, Maylasia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.

Among the reasons that I continue to use Ten-Tec gear is that families
in the U.S. receive pay checks when I do so. Ten-Tec manufactures their
enclosures, plastic components, variable caps and the like. When I
telephone for service, a real person answers the telephone and directs
my call. A service tech in the U.S. handles my inquiry. If my
equipment needs service, I ship it a relatively short distance, pay a
fair price and it is turned around in short order. Parts are on hand
for most Ten-Tec gear produced.

My "made in USA" Orion is filled with components manufactured in the far
east. Everybody's else's rig is filled with 'em.

I have, within the past couple of years, bought Japanese gear. I used
to use a Paragon as an IF for two Ten-Tec transverters and one Microwave
Modules transverter for VHF/UHF bands. The switching became a pain.
I decided on an FT-847 because it had separate antenna ports for HF, 6m,
2m and 70cm. I bought an Icom IC-706 MkIIG for a mobile rig because
there simply wasn't room for even a Ten-Tec Scout to be mounted in my
Neon--and I still wouldn't have addressed the need for a 2m and 70cm rig.

For me to buy this latest assemble-it-yourself transceiver, it'd have to
be considerably better than what I have now. From what I've read, it
has numerous features which I see as having dubious value.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:
K4YZ wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not.

Incomplete?

Yes, $3000 to $6000 is a lot of dough. Definitely way above *my* ham
radio
budget. But that's just me, and what I'm willing to spend. Others will
put
down a lot more for just a tower..

The DZ website makes the point of comparing popular rigs of ~40 years
ago
and their prices when adjusted for inflation. New ham gear in the bad
old
days was amazingly expensive when you consider the inflation factor.

In fact, consider what PCs cost just ten years ago! A 486DX50 with 32
meg of RAM and a half-gig hard drive could cost you big bucks then -
and it's a doorstop today.

I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Maybe more computer, but not more radio, if the performance is up to
the claims.

But the big issue is how many hams will spend the money, and how many
DZ needs to sell to be viable. Maybe he only needs/plans to sell 100
or so.

Consider the Elecraft K2. When it first came out, I heard some
scoffing in the peanut gallery that said very few hams would pay
almost $600 for a rig that was, in basic form, CW only, hambands only
and QRP. They said that having SSB, 160, NB, ATU and 100W all as
extra-cost options would doom the rig and the company.

But more than 5000 have been sold since 1999 with minimal advertising.

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

I don't think so. It's not clear from the website how much assembly the
buyer actually does. Obviously it's less than the bag-o-parts scenario
of some kits but less than fully assembled.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled. No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

I think the boards may be assembled here in the USA. There are all
sorts
of prototype and assembly outfits here in the USA to do small runs. Of
course
they cost a lot more per unit than "offshore", but if you're not making
a
million units or even 10,000 units, the total package price can be very
competitive.

There aren't nearly as many components built in the U.S. as in the past,
Steve. Even back in the late seventies and early eighties, most solid
state devices were produced in Mexico, Maylasia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc.

Yep. And while first runs of new devices may be US made, the production
quickly moves away. Not just silicon devices, either, but many other
components.

Among the reasons that I continue to use Ten-Tec gear is that families
in the U.S. receive pay checks when I do so. Ten-Tec manufactures their
enclosures, plastic components, variable caps and the like. When I
telephone for service, a real person answers the telephone and directs
my call. A service tech in the U.S. handles my inquiry. If my
equipment needs service, I ship it a relatively short distance, pay a
fair price and it is turned around in short order. Parts are on hand
for most Ten-Tec gear produced.

Yep. Service alone is a reason to buy Ten Tec.

My "made in USA" Orion is filled with components manufactured in the far
east. Everybody's else's rig is filled with 'em.

Not everybody's! ;-)

Not mine!

For me to buy this latest assemble-it-yourself transceiver, it'd have to
be considerably better than what I have now. From what I've read, it
has numerous features which I see as having dubious value.

The real telling point will be the performance up against an Orion or
other top-of-the-line state-of-the-art rig.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:
http://www.getboost.com/dz/sienna.htm

My thoughts.

First, the unit has a lot of promise. While I think I prefer separate
components between the computer and the rig for flexibility, this setup
might just be fun to use.

Some folks might like the integrated internal computer. It's certainly
the first rig to offer it. My only concern is that a computer's life
cycle is much shorter than most ham rigs'.

Next, I don't buy the teeny florescent screen rationale. My idea of the
modern integrated rig is more along the line of looking like a laptop,
with a folding large screen on top of the RF portions of the box. But
that's just me.

You can plug an external VGA display into the rig.

Interesting that they chose an LDG autotuner. This is a concept that
might be expanded upon.

It would be wonderful if ham rigs were like desktop computers in the
form of standardization.

Don't like the computer interface screenshot.

I really hope that they do well. I do think the price point is too
high. I would be willing to pay extra for an American made unit, but 3K
for the entry level, and 6K for the works unit is pretty high.

Perhaps - but a lot depends on how well it really performs.

Unless of course, the rig has outstanding performance. I would love to
see some test results.

Mo bettah, some actual on-air performance. Somebody wins CQWW DX with
one, then watch the fireworks...

Or to really get to the bottom of it: Is it $6000 worth of fun?

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

Expand which concept? Kits have been around a long time - curious that
they never mention Elecraft or any of the other kits...

Of course my entire main HF rig cost me less than one of their optional
filters, so I guess everything is relative....

One more observation on price:

Go to the local Home Depot, Lowes or similar outfit, as long as they
carry a full range of appliances and such. Look at the ranges,
refrigerators, countertops, etc.

You can get a nice range for $300-400, or spend double, triple,
quadruple that price for one with all the gizmos like self-cleaning,
stainless steel, high-capacity oven, dissimilar burners, etc. Same for
dishwashers, refrigerators, etc. Countertops? Granite seems to have
replaced Corian and similar materials around here, at $100 a square
foot, installed. Me, I prefer a nice laminate like
Formica, but apparently a lot of folks prefer fancier stuff.

Does a burger taste any better if it's made in such a kitchen? I dunno,
but they must be selling the fancy stuff because they continue to stock
it.

73 de Jim, N2EY

K4YZ wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

I don't think that's going to happen, Mike.

First off, I don't think very many folks will drop $3K to $6K on a
radio that comes incomplete, computer or not. I can spend a heck of a
lot of LESS money and get more radio AND computer for my bucks!

Secondly, it's a "kit" only in the sense that it does come
"disassembled". The potential buyer is actually paying the
"manufacturer" for the privilege of him (the "manufacturer) not having
to pay an assembly line.

Lastly, he brags about the "kit" being "built in America" because
the owner "builds it right here in America". I wish I had the spare
change to drop to buy one for no other reason than to see where all of
the pre-assembled boards are actually assembled.

No doubt in some
PacRim nation where the guy who REALLY built it wouldn't be able to
afford it in a lifetime.

You just might be surprised to find out that the boards were stuffed in
the U.S. Not all board design and stuffing is done overseas by a long
shot. The Asians can't be touched when it comes to designing and
cranking out the boards which go into mid to high volume equipment.

Conversly the U.S. is the global top gun when it comes to very
competitvely producing boards which go into low volume equipment. Which
includes the likes of Ten-tec gear kits and otherwise. So I suspect
that the boards in all the few "Made in America" pieces of solid state
ham gear available today are designed, burned and stuffed right here.

The big tricks the U.S. has in the short-run board biz invlove our
extremely automated, flexible, quick turnaround design/burn/stuff
capabilities which are unique at the international level and it's a
*big* bucks biz.

If a Ten-tec decided the next-off-the-line series of OhRyans needs a
newly-designed boards any number of circuit board job shops in this
country can put a few protypes in Ten-tec's hands inside 72 hours for
test and evaluation and be set to make whatever revisions Ten-tech
wants and be set to roll into production within hours after it gets the
feedback from Ten-tec.

As if any ricbox radio builder can come even close.


73

Steve, K4YZ

w3rv

From: Mike Coslo on Jul 19, 8:08 pm

http://www.getboost.com/dz/sienna.htm

My thoughts.

First, the unit has a lot of promise. While I think I prefer separate
components between the computer and the rig for flexibility, this setup
might just be fun to use.

It's not the first such integrated radio transceiver.

The DZ Sienna "predecessor" - called the PSKUBE - no longer on
the market, was even more integrated. See the assembly-
instruction-theory manual available on the DZ website. A single
box with an LCD screen for a Windows-like display, plug-in
keyboard, obviously intended to be a "starter rig" (20 W)
mainly for PSK-31. Kind of a niche market in itself.

Next, I don't buy the teeny florescent screen rationale. My idea of the
modern integrated rig is more along the line of looking like a laptop,
with a folding large screen on top of the RF portions of the box. But
that's just me.

You can get those now from other folks, use a "real" laptop for
the entire control of them. Otherwise the modern ready-built HF
transceivers generally have the same size "teeny" displays.

Interesting that they chose an LDG autotuner. This is a concept that
might be expanded upon.

Why is that "interesting?" SGC makes several autotuners, buildable
inside or use externally. The DZ Sienna isn't the first to offer
a built-in automatic antenna tuner.

Don't like the computer interface screenshot.

Okay, then program up an interface using the Windows format and
calls. Maybe the internal operating system is as accessible as
the Sienna itself? Like "addressing it on-line like it was
another PC." It uses a single-board computer, PC compatible.

I really hope that they do well. I do think the price point is too
high.

What, with your choice of three different front panel colors? :-)

I would be willing to pay extra for an American made unit, but 3K
for the entry level, and 6K for the works unit is pretty high.

Hmmm...sounds vaguely like the Signal One and MIL-Spec market
tries.

Of course, if you can't afford a Rolls-Royce, there is always
the Bentley... :-)

Unless of course, the rig has outstanding performance. I would love to
see some test results.

Technically, it should have equal performance with all other HF
ham transceivers in its price range. Emotionally, that's another
story, and that is entirely subjective.

Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....

Maybe, maybe not.

Take a look at the predecessor, the PSKUBE. Looked like a neat
idea but it was withdrawn as a product...even though it was
obviously all set for kit production. On-board PC-compatible
computer, built-in screen. Probably did not "look like a
radio" to many potential buyers. There's a terrible conservatism
to many hams who could afford such a rig. A product has to fit
the market first...innovation can be introduced gradually later.

The off-shore designer-manufacturers got into the American
market by first entering with radios that had the same features
as Heath, Hallicrafters, National, and Collins. Heath and
Hallicrafters went defunct. National just kind of disappeared.
Collins is still making radios but for government/commercial
use, having left the ham market decades ago. The innovations in
modern ready-built ham radios (PLL-DDS frequency control with
memory storage, easy "split" operation, RIT (or equivalent),
DSP (of many kinds), all through an internal microprocessor
(which allows even more features) were done by Yaesu, Kenwood,
Icom. The latter-day American saints came after them with the
possible exception (maybe) of Drake. [arguments from Ten-Tec
fanatics but then they always argue a lot anyway...]

Incorporation of ready-built assemblies and sub-systems is not
a new thing. That's been in the works here and off-shore for
about four decades. Using an industry-standard single-board
PC in an amateur transceiver IS a new thing, carrying on-board
flexibility to uncharted new heights. Having (total?) remote,
done through the net kind of operation is going to batter some
of the Part 97 regulations on remote control if this had been
a ready-built instead of a kit. [a small pause while Hans
assembles the appropriate sub-Parts for publication here]

An on-board computer - using a true ADAPTING algorithm (I've
seen one such in operation) - could obviate the need for the
"trained morse operator" who could "work" through the worst
QRM or QRN that is in the universe. :-) Right away that
makes it a no-no for the PCTA extras in here. :-)

If Brian and his small DZ company succeed, they will have a
niche market still in my viewpoint. Sort of like Elecraft.
If there are complaints about a "kit," then look at Elecraft's
"service" of having "builders" who will assemble sets for those
customers that want that particular model ready-built. Assembly
costs extra, of course.

I'll tip my hat to Wood and the DZ Sienna just for trying. It
looks like a well-engineered set and the Heathkit-flavored
manual format is right on the money for Heath fans. It looks
like the design is a Labor of Love for Brian Wood...a good
start for a long relationship.

wrote:
http://www.getboost.com/dz/sienna.htm

73 de Jim, N2EY

Here coms another "radical" startup. Yuri strikes again.

w3rv

wrote:

If a Ten-tec decided the next-off-the-line series of OhRyans needs a
newly-designed boards any number of circuit board job shops in this
country can put a few protypes in Ten-tec's hands inside 72 hours for
test and evaluation and be set to make whatever revisions Ten-tech
wants and be set to roll into production within hours after it gets the
feedback from Ten-tec.

As if any ricbox radio builder can come even close.

We may have a chance to find out soon. Ten-Tec announced the Orion II
today. It is set for October shipping.

Dave K8MN

wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

wrote:

http://www.getboost.com/dz/sienna.htm


My thoughts.

First, the unit has a lot of promise. While I think I prefer separate
components between the computer and the rig for flexibility, this setup
might just be fun to use.


Some folks might like the integrated internal computer. It's certainly
the first rig to offer it. My only concern is that a computer's life
cycle is much shorter than most ham rigs'.

Of course, the computer would work for all the Ham radio functions at
the time of manufacture, so it wouldn't "go" out of date.

Plus my idea given down below might be a winner.


Next, I don't buy the teeny florescent screen rationale. My idea of the
modern integrated rig is more along the line of looking like a laptop,
with a folding large screen on top of the RF portions of the box. But
that's just me.


You can plug an external VGA display into the rig.

Sometimes.

But you see, here is what I'm thinking of. A computer with the RF guts,
and a laptop of some choice that plugs into the computer, and sets on
top of it. Many of the features now used in hardware could be handled by
the laptop. You would have logging, digital modes, dsp - probably not
important to you, but for a growing group of us, it would be great.

If the laptop were to become obsolete, say if a new mode came along
that required too much horsepower, then the unit could be replaced. A
mounting kit could be made available. In fact, a radio could be designed
so that you could attach your present laptop.


Interesting that they chose an LDG autotuner. This is a concept that
might be expanded upon.


It would be wonderful if ham rigs were like desktop computers in the
form of standardization.

Sometimes.


Don't like the computer interface screenshot.

I really hope that they do well. I do think the price point is too
high. I would be willing to pay extra for an American made unit, but 3K
for the entry level, and 6K for the works unit is pretty high.


Perhaps - but a lot depends on how well it really performs.


Unless of course, the rig has outstanding performance. I would love to
see some test results.


Mo bettah, some actual on-air performance. Somebody wins CQWW DX with
one, then watch the fireworks...

Or to really get to the bottom of it: Is it $6000 worth of fun?

And is it 6K worth of fun for the XYL? ;^)


Hoping that they can sell enough to expand the concept, because it is a
good one....


Expand which concept? Kits have been around a long time - curious that
they never mention Elecraft or any of the other kits...

For me, the concept isn't the kit - its the idea of the integral
computer, the modular construction, even to using another manufacturers
tuner.


Of course my entire main HF rig cost me less than one of their optional
filters, so I guess everything is relative....

One more observation on price:

Go to the local Home Depot, Lowes or similar outfit, as long as they
carry a full range of appliances and such. Look at the ranges,
refrigerators, countertops, etc.

You can get a nice range for $300-400, or spend double, triple,
quadruple that price for one with all the gizmos like self-cleaning,
stainless steel, high-capacity oven, dissimilar burners, etc. Same for
dishwashers, refrigerators, etc. Countertops? Granite seems to have
replaced Corian and similar materials around here, at $100 a square
foot, installed. Me, I prefer a nice laminate like
Formica, but apparently a lot of folks prefer fancier stuff.


Does a burger taste any better if it's made in such a kitchen? I dunno,
but they must be selling the fancy stuff because they continue to stock
it.

If its involved with real estate, people will shuck out astoundingly
foolish amounts of money.

BTW, those McMansions are becoming very, very hard to resell.

- Mike KB3EIA -