John Smith wrote:

Dee:

If you would chart developments and advancements in every technical
field--amateur radio would come in last; frankly, I would doubt ones
mental abilities who would even move in the direction of challenging
that statement.


Exactly right on point. Not since the 1950's has amateur radio had much
of an impact on the "radio art". Packet briefly did, but it was rapidly
eclipsed by technology.



A religious devotion to cw and a real "good old boys club" has
damaged amateur radio for decades. Personalities which have an
"anti-social bent" have been in control here far too long, calling them
just "eccentric" is far too kind.


Not CW, but a general eccentric flavor has damaged amateur radio. Since
the 1960's amateur radio has attracted the social misfits who fit in by
the virtue of having a license and their social ineptitude excused
because of the license.

Nothing wrong with a "good old boys club", it's just that it's moved
from a technical organization to a beer and belching organization with
no real roots in advancement of the art. Sitting around and talking
about scratching your testicals on 75 meter SSB has ZERO attraction to
people with half a brain, and THIS is the problem with amateur radio. It
isn't CW, it isn't lack of social skills or good hygiene, it's just that
it doesn't attract engineers and good electronics technicians because it
simply isn't challenging enough.



Let us hope that decades of damage which has been done can be
repaired quickly by the young men I am wishing and hoping to be here
with us.


Ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid. The bright young men are shooting 2.4
gig WiFi at each other and bypassing amateur radio entirely. It's too late.


Now we need to encourage bright young men from industry here, so that
we may mass produce cheap equipment and make amateur radio easy to step
into. Hopefully, china and other developing countries will find it
profitable and worth doing, to mass produce amateur equipment in a
flowing abundance. Hopefully, soon, in the future the bands will be so
congested calls are made for the bands to be expanded to accommodate all
the hams needing bandwidth. A boom like that which CB experienced in
the 70's would be most desirable, however, I do realize this is probably
too much to even hope for.



All you're going to get are people from CB. The bright young engineers
are not going to touch amateur radio because there isn't anything here
to attract them.


As soon as cw falls, I see the most important step being in
"advertising" the fact that cw is no longer a requirement. Spreading
the word and helping others to study and pass the written exam will be
key in getting the numbers we need at that time.



It's not an issue of numbers, it's an issue of why would anyone want to
become an amateur radio operator. Really now, why would you want to do
that? To talk on repeaters? To work some guy on 20 meters? The whole
hobby is passe.

If you want to attract the bright intelligent minds, you better be
prepared to challenge them. Challenge them to let them in, challenge
them when they get here. Do you think ax.25 is going to attract people?

HA!

Jayson:

On a few points you are right on. However, try to net a high speed
data link on 2.4 GHZ to hawaii, australia, the uk--fat chance!!! (and
you might as well forget 220 MHz too--50MHz with ducting, well, maybe)

This is what HF is for, old farts got confused and though it was for
brass keys and brass balls!

John

"Jayson Davis" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:

Dee:

If you would chart developments and advancements in every
technical
field--amateur radio would come in last; frankly, I would doubt ones
mental abilities who would even move in the direction of challenging
that statement.


Exactly right on point. Not since the 1950's has amateur radio had
much of an impact on the "radio art". Packet briefly did, but it
was rapidly eclipsed by technology.



A religious devotion to cw and a real "good old boys club" has
damaged amateur radio for decades. Personalities which have an
"anti-social bent" have been in control here far too long, calling
them just "eccentric" is far too kind.


Not CW, but a general eccentric flavor has damaged amateur radio.
Since the 1960's amateur radio has attracted the social misfits who
fit in by the virtue of having a license and their social ineptitude
excused because of the license.

Nothing wrong with a "good old boys club", it's just that it's moved
from a technical organization to a beer and belching organization
with no real roots in advancement of the art. Sitting around and
talking about scratching your testicals on 75 meter SSB has ZERO
attraction to people with half a brain, and THIS is the problem with
amateur radio. It isn't CW, it isn't lack of social skills or good
hygiene, it's just that it doesn't attract engineers and good
electronics technicians because it simply isn't challenging enough.



Let us hope that decades of damage which has been done can be
repaired quickly by the young men I am wishing and hoping to be here
with us.


Ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid. The bright young men are shooting
2.4 gig WiFi at each other and bypassing amateur radio entirely.
It's too late.


Now we need to encourage bright young men from industry here, so
that
we may mass produce cheap equipment and make amateur radio easy to
step into. Hopefully, china and other developing countries will
find it profitable and worth doing, to mass produce amateur
equipment in a flowing abundance. Hopefully, soon, in the future
the bands will be so congested calls are made for the bands to be
expanded to accommodate all the hams needing bandwidth. A boom like
that which CB experienced in the 70's would be most desirable,
however, I do realize this is probably too much to even hope for.



All you're going to get are people from CB. The bright young
engineers are not going to touch amateur radio because there isn't
anything here to attract them.


As soon as cw falls, I see the most important step being in
"advertising" the fact that cw is no longer a requirement.
Spreading the word and helping others to study and pass the written
exam will be key in getting the numbers we need at that time.



It's not an issue of numbers, it's an issue of why would anyone want
to become an amateur radio operator. Really now, why would you want
to do that? To talk on repeaters? To work some guy on 20 meters?
The whole hobby is passe.

If you want to attract the bright intelligent minds, you better be
prepared to challenge them. Challenge them to let them in,
challenge them when they get here. Do you think ax.25 is going to
attract people?

HA!

wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
wrote:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-05-143A1.doc

Ugly. Really ugly. But who of us in the PCTA camp,
realistically,
actually had themselves deluded into thinking the FCC would
take any other path?

As I often said in the past 5 years, when FCC wrote that
code testing served no regulatory purpose other than
treaty compliance, the deal was essentially done.

The amazing thing was that it's taken two years to get
this far.

That's because the people wanting to eliminate the code "shot themselves in
the foot" with a plethora of wide ranging petitions.


This "NPRM" is not "an opportunity to comment", it's an
announcement
about the way it's absolutely gonna be. Period. They'll go
thru the
NPRM motions only because the law sez they have to and they'll
patiently tap their fingers on the table until the deluge of
desparate
commnents is over then declare the POS they published today a
done deal.

I'll comment, like always.

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this
latest "restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more then
back then the bands as usual.

Yup. Then the "barrier" folks will find another excuse.

Got my antenna back up last night (had to take it down Sunday for
the new siding to go on the house). 40 was full of CW signals.
Nice chat with a VE2 on 7031. Life is good.

Yup it is. And I will continue as always to try to introduce amateur radio
to new people.


I could care less about any of it at this late date because
none of it
has any effect at all on me. I've been allowed to beep, yak and PSK my
buns off everywhere band edge to band edge ever since I did 13 wpm fast
enough for the examiner to make me a General over a half
century ago.
With an annoying side trip in 1968 to do 20 wpm to reconfirm my abilty
to beep good enough to retain my privs under that particular FCC
"restructuring" brainfart.

Exactly.

Game over, I'm opting out of any further participation in any
of this
BS. Seeya in the pileups on 14.020. Ya dunno how to do 14.020? Good:
Less QRM for me. Eat yer heart out.

bwaahaahaa

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"K4YZ" wrote in message
ups.com...


wrote:
wrote:

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this
latest "restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more then
back then the bands as usual.

Yup. Then the "barrier" folks will find another excuse.

Yep.

Just like with Novice Enhancement, the introduction of the NCT and
Restructuring...

I find it laughable that the FCC would use the same worn out and
obviously untrue language that "this" change will bring all those
technically-oriented people into the Amateur fold. They said the exact
same thing with the last three aforementioned evolutions and it wasn't
true then.

Indeed we dropped the Code Test in 91 for 97% of all Amateur
allocations, including the highly sought after VHF/UHF spectrum. The
REAL argument has been over that last 3%, or the HF allocations. So
where were all those engineering-types then?

People like "You-Know-Who" have been arguing that his ilk don't
get licenses due to not being able to get on HF...Yet they ALSO argue
that the license is most valuable for experimenting. Well...All of the
REAL "experimenting" is going on ABOVE 30MHz, not below it, so the
argument is moot. They, like everyone else, want to get on HF and
"shoot skip", nothing more.

I'm betting that it remains CW for Extra, and no code for
Generals, unless the FCC want's to disband the phone-vs-narrow band
subdivisions. I think there will be sufficient argument to keep that
much.


I'm betting that it will go just like the NPRM is now and that is code
elimination across the board. They specifically discussed the proposals
that had that concept in it and discounted the possibility.

The next two arguments are going to be to squeeze all of the
non-voice modes into 50 or 75KHz of spectrum on each band since all of
those new codeless Generals will want to spead out, and to have only
one or two license classes.


You know I doubt this as those who really wanted General upgraded anyway.
Of those who haven't upgraded yet, many are relatively inactive anyhow.

As far as two license classes go, FCC is not considering it right now and it
won't really matter what they do as I believe that there will be a de facto
two class system.

When that is done we can remove all references to training and
technical/operational competency from the Basis and Purpose of Part 97.
Shortly thereafter we can move all of Part 97 to Part 95. Maybe
re-write both parts into one, new, Part 96?

Perhaps we can also add new bands at 061, 08, 04, 03 etc Meters so
those claiming unfairness in testing criteria due to "dyslexia" can
operate legally...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
OMG:

I never thought about that, with the great influx of all these new
hams firing up their keys and going CW on us, phone might be in
danger!!! grin

John



Hello, John

Nope, but I've never encountered a foul word nor bad operating procedure on
cw. 160 used to be fine, even on voice mode, but other bands were ... well,
a bit different. With the 14.313 gang going a while back plus the 75 meter
folks .... well, 80 meter cw sounds good to me LOL.

The nice thing about cw is that there is seldom, if ever, rude operation
(contests don't count. Never cared for 'em and it is going to be hot and
heavy in a contest. That is part of the game. Not rude, just hot and heavy
and sometimes a bit chaotic). SSB needs close to 3 kHz of room and the
power is spread over that 3 kHz (albeit not evenly). You don't need more
than a few hundred Hertz for cw, so once you set your bandwidth to 300 Hz or
less, you've just obtained a good 10 dB attenuation of the guy trying to
irritate you. Of course, you can reduce bandwidth a bit more, but the audio
isn't evenly spread over the spectrum. In many cases you can gain 20 dB or
more advantage. Mike was running 1 kw input vs my 75 watts. His bandwidth
was 50% in the carrier (not to be heard) and the remaining 50% of his power
was spread over 6 kHz as he was running am. I didn't even hear him.

With a good notch filter, he didn't even have to hear me. He could have
carried on a conversation on am with another station whilst I chatted with
the other guy with virtually no mutual interference. Four stations in the
same "channel" .... with no interference.

Dang! I just may become more pro-code LOL



73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

Jim:

Well friend, you have been isolated.

Out here in the real world kids are cussing like sailors in grade
school, 11 year old girls are actively seeking to become pregnant,
drugs are much more prevalent than ever in the 60's and 70's.

The only areas where cussing is not seen is churches...

Whether you like it or not reality has changed...

You have hidden from the real world on 160m for far too long, and
since you have not joined the real world, the real world now comes to
you...

Get over it, for at least the near future, things are NOT going the
way most of us like--the answer to this is not setting aside 160m for
ancient old men to hide in...

John

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
OMG:

I never thought about that, with the great influx of all these new
hams firing up their keys and going CW on us, phone might be in
danger!!! grin

John



Hello, John

Nope, but I've never encountered a foul word nor bad operating
procedure on
cw. 160 used to be fine, even on voice mode, but other bands were
... well,
a bit different. With the 14.313 gang going a while back plus the
75 meter
folks .... well, 80 meter cw sounds good to me LOL.

The nice thing about cw is that there is seldom, if ever, rude
operation
(contests don't count. Never cared for 'em and it is going to be
hot and
heavy in a contest. That is part of the game. Not rude, just hot
and heavy
and sometimes a bit chaotic). SSB needs close to 3 kHz of room and
the
power is spread over that 3 kHz (albeit not evenly). You don't need
more
than a few hundred Hertz for cw, so once you set your bandwidth to
300 Hz or
less, you've just obtained a good 10 dB attenuation of the guy
trying to
irritate you. Of course, you can reduce bandwidth a bit more, but
the audio
isn't evenly spread over the spectrum. In many cases you can gain
20 dB or
more advantage. Mike was running 1 kw input vs my 75 watts. His
bandwidth
was 50% in the carrier (not to be heard) and the remaining 50% of
his power
was spread over 6 kHz as he was running am. I didn't even hear him.

With a good notch filter, he didn't even have to hear me. He could
have
carried on a conversation on am with another station whilst I
chatted with
the other guy with virtually no mutual interference. Four stations
in the
same "channel" .... with no interference.

Dang! I just may become more pro-code LOL



73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

Dee:

You are correct about one thing, those who are in danger of having
their egos deflated, of being forced to wakeup, those realizing they
are not going to be allowed to "be special" anymore are going to
scream like pigs and look for some way to divert the fixes which are
coming this way...

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"K4YZ" wrote in message
ups.com...


wrote:
wrote:

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this
latest "restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more
then back then the bands as usual.

Yup. Then the "barrier" folks will find another excuse.

Yep.

Just like with Novice Enhancement, the introduction of the NCT
and
Restructuring...

I find it laughable that the FCC would use the same worn out
and
obviously untrue language that "this" change will bring all those
technically-oriented people into the Amateur fold. They said the
exact
same thing with the last three aforementioned evolutions and it
wasn't
true then.

Indeed we dropped the Code Test in 91 for 97% of all Amateur
allocations, including the highly sought after VHF/UHF spectrum.
The
REAL argument has been over that last 3%, or the HF allocations.
So
where were all those engineering-types then?

People like "You-Know-Who" have been arguing that his ilk don't
get licenses due to not being able to get on HF...Yet they ALSO
argue
that the license is most valuable for experimenting. Well...All of
the
REAL "experimenting" is going on ABOVE 30MHz, not below it, so the
argument is moot. They, like everyone else, want to get on HF and
"shoot skip", nothing more.

I'm betting that it remains CW for Extra, and no code for
Generals, unless the FCC want's to disband the phone-vs-narrow band
subdivisions. I think there will be sufficient argument to keep
that
much.


I'm betting that it will go just like the NPRM is now and that is
code elimination across the board. They specifically discussed the
proposals that had that concept in it and discounted the
possibility.

The next two arguments are going to be to squeeze all of the
non-voice modes into 50 or 75KHz of spectrum on each band since all
of
those new codeless Generals will want to spead out, and to have
only
one or two license classes.


You know I doubt this as those who really wanted General upgraded
anyway. Of those who haven't upgraded yet, many are relatively
inactive anyhow.

As far as two license classes go, FCC is not considering it right
now and it won't really matter what they do as I believe that there
will be a de facto two class system.

When that is done we can remove all references to training and
technical/operational competency from the Basis and Purpose of Part
97.
Shortly thereafter we can move all of Part 97 to Part 95. Maybe
re-write both parts into one, new, Part 96?

Perhaps we can also add new bands at 061, 08, 04, 03 etc Meters
so
those claiming unfairness in testing criteria due to "dyslexia" can
operate legally...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Dee:

You are correct about one thing, those who are in danger of having their
egos deflated, of being forced to wakeup, those realizing they are not
going to be allowed to "be special" anymore are going to scream like pigs
and look for some way to divert the fixes which are coming this way...

John


I find it difficult to see how extracted that concept from what I said.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"K4YZ" wrote in message
ups.com...


wrote:
wrote:

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this
latest "restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more then
back then the bands as usual.

Yup. Then the "barrier" folks will find another excuse.

Yep.

Just like with Novice Enhancement, the introduction of the NCT and
Restructuring...

I find it laughable that the FCC would use the same worn out and
obviously untrue language that "this" change will bring all those
technically-oriented people into the Amateur fold. They said the exact
same thing with the last three aforementioned evolutions and it wasn't
true then.

Indeed we dropped the Code Test in 91 for 97% of all Amateur
allocations, including the highly sought after VHF/UHF spectrum. The
REAL argument has been over that last 3%, or the HF allocations. So
where were all those engineering-types then?

People like "You-Know-Who" have been arguing that his ilk don't
get licenses due to not being able to get on HF...Yet they ALSO argue
that the license is most valuable for experimenting. Well...All of the
REAL "experimenting" is going on ABOVE 30MHz, not below it, so the
argument is moot. They, like everyone else, want to get on HF and
"shoot skip", nothing more.

I'm betting that it remains CW for Extra, and no code for
Generals, unless the FCC want's to disband the phone-vs-narrow band
subdivisions. I think there will be sufficient argument to keep that
much.


I'm betting that it will go just like the NPRM is now and that is code
elimination across the board. They specifically discussed the proposals
that had that concept in it and discounted the possibility.

The next two arguments are going to be to squeeze all of the
non-voice modes into 50 or 75KHz of spectrum on each band since all of
those new codeless Generals will want to spead out, and to have only
one or two license classes.


You know I doubt this as those who really wanted General upgraded anyway.
Of those who haven't upgraded yet, many are relatively inactive anyhow.

As far as two license classes go, FCC is not considering it right now and
it won't really matter what they do as I believe that there will be a de
facto two class system.

When that is done we can remove all references to training and
technical/operational competency from the Basis and Purpose of Part 97.
Shortly thereafter we can move all of Part 97 to Part 95. Maybe
re-write both parts into one, new, Part 96?

Perhaps we can also add new bands at 061, 08, 04, 03 etc Meters so
those claiming unfairness in testing criteria due to "dyslexia" can
operate legally...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

From: John Smith on Jul 21, 11:59 am

I agree. With the congestion on CB and there being only 40 chans for
all the truck drivers, four wheelers, base stations and freebanders,
it is a mess.

More bandwidth has been needed for over a decade.

More than THREE decades, John. CB is 47 years old. The sudden
explosion of imported transceivers on the marketplace took
place in the early 1960s.

Most do want to chat with others in other countries, "skip" will be
the mode of the day on HF--at least I'd imagine that to be the case.

Sorry, you can't really say "skip" in here. That's a four-
letter word used by CBers, as in "shooting skip." :-)

One can still "pioneer the airwaves below 200 meters!" That's
the MYTH. Of course the commercial and government and military
people already did that early, used it, and moved on. :-)
[I was there, on it, helping to use it, 50 years ago...]

However, I have never seen a real case of where what actually happens
is able to be "prophesized" accurately before the actual situation--it
will be interesting to watch.

No? Oh, my, I've met dozens of "nostrahamus" predictors in
my time. The ham sky fell in 1958 when CODELESS, TESTLESS
CB happened on HF!!! The ham sky fell in 1990 when FCC 90-53
created the NO CODE TEST Technician (ugh, ptui, spit) was
to start in 1991. The ham sky fell in 1999 when the latest
"restructuring" was ordered to take place in 2001 with the
maximum rate of 5 WPM for ALL morse code tests!

The ham sky has fallen so many times that it's a wonder the
Earth hasn't turned into an ultra dense ball of neutrons. :-)

WT Docket 05-235 is going to turn out to be more of a TITLE,
RANK, PRIVILEGE bust for the ham "nobility." Oh, they will
still trumpet their high-skill morsemanship as the "best of
the best [morse] operators" and snarl at all others for being
mere "yakkers into a mike." The snarls will still be there,
frozen into rictus grins when they assume room temperature.

The FCC defines U.S. amateur radio operators as (partly)
having a "proven unique ability to enhance international
goodwill." Funny, they don't comment about their unique
ability to be as quarrelsome as possible domestically...

It's a Great Day a Dawning! Huzzah! :-)

From: Dee Flint on Jul 21, 6:01 pm


wrote in message
wrote:
wrote:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-05-143A1.doc

Ugly. Really ugly. But who of us in the PCTA camp,
realistically,
actually had themselves deluded into thinking the FCC would
take any other path?

As I often said in the past 5 years, when FCC wrote that
code testing served no regulatory purpose other than
treaty compliance, the deal was essentially done.

Errr....the FCC "said that" (wrote it, actually) in 1990
in regards to 90-53 on the creation of the no-code-test
Technician class. So, what did you do between 15 and 5
years ago? :-)

The amazing thing was that it's taken two years to get
this far.

That's because the people wanting to eliminate the code "shot themselves in
the foot" with a plethora of wide ranging petitions.

Tsk. Dee, you should really READ the NPRM more carefully,
especially pages 6 through 9 and the footnotes on page 2. Then
go to pages 26 through 28 to see which Petition was DENIED and
which was granted in part.

I've read all 18 Petitions as they were put on the ECFS...and
Commented on all 18. Did YOU Comment on any of those
Petitions or were you too busy doing DX in the morning before
work?

Hello? There was a WIDE RANGE of "restructuring" in those 18
Petitions. Had you actually studied them you would have seen
that the more Byzantine plans were done by the PCTAs. shrug


This "NPRM" is not "an opportunity to comment", it's an announcement
about the way it's absolutely gonna be. Period. They'll go thru the
NPRM motions only because the law sez they have to and they'll
patiently tap their fingers on the table until the deluge of desparate
commnents is over then declare the POS they published today a done deal.

Was that "disparate" or "desperate?" :-)

I'll comment, like always.

Tsk. You will comment on anything, especially about subjects not
germane to this newsgroup! :-)

I agree with Dee, the only visible impact this latest "restructing"
will be is another quickie bubble of upgrades and nothing more then
back then the bands as usual.

Yup. Then the "barrier" folks will find another excuse.

Tsk. The "barrier" has been up for over 92 years. The "olde
folkes' home" (in radio) has been established, located on the
HF ham bands. Remarkable "new technology" on those HF ham
bands? Only that devised by those in the UK and Europe...and
the designer-manufacturers in Asia.

Got my antenna back up last night (had to take it down Sunday for
the new siding to go on the house). 40 was full of CW signals.
Nice chat with a VE2 on 7031. Life is good.

Yup it is. And I will continue as always to try to introduce amateur radio
to new people.

Keep on plugging that vital to the nation's needs, morse code,
the one that "saves lives" etc., and supposedly "gets through
when nothing else will." Is it "pioneering the (radio) airwaves
through HF QSOs?" :-)

I'll continue boosting ALL of ELECTRONICS...of which radio is
a subset. It's a good occupation, interesting, challenging,
constantly evolving, breaking new ground, on the cutting edges
of electronics technology. Pays reasonably well, too. I've
been in it for 53 years as a professional, as a hobbyist for
about 58 years.

Life IS good. The NPRM has finally arrived!

The light at the end of the tunnel is not another train, just
a representative of the rest of the radio world with
Diogenes' borrowed lantern wondering where in the hell amateur
radio has been... :-)