Dee Flint wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


wrote:

Observations:

- Although the majority of individuals who commented on the 18
proposals supported code testing, FCC proposes to completely
eliminate it.

- There were a lot of ideas in the 18 proposals other than the code
test. FCC simply denied all suggestions for change *except* dumping
Element 1. Free upgrades for Advanceds and Novices? New entry level
classes? More HF bandspace/modes for Novices and Tech Pluses? "No" to
all of them.

- The changes of 2000 brought a lot of upgrades and some short-term
growth, but now the number of individuals with unexpired US ham
licenses is almost 10,000 below what it was in May of 2000. Nor has
there been any sort of "techno-revolution" from the reductions in code
testing.


Predictions:

- There will be a lot of debate and commentary. But in the end FCC will
just dump Element 1 and make no other changes.

Agreed

- There will be a lot of upgrades and a short-term peak in licenses.
But not long term growth.

Agreed

- The HF/MF bands will not be overrun with more activity.

MOre activity, but not likely overrun.

- There will not be a "revolution" in technology used by hams brought
by the new folks.

No, certainly not brought about by the new folks - as a group. But I don't
doubt that some of the new folks may very well involved.



- The focus will shift to a debate about widening the 'phone subbands
or even having no mode subbands at all.


Yawn! That won't be anywhere near as much fun as the Element 1 debate!


break
One more thing that will happen, and I hope it doesn't. I anticipate a bit
of class warfare, as (some of) the code tested try to establish
superiority over the great unwashed who enter the ARS.


Let's hope not. A prospective ham can only follow the licensing procedure
in place at the time he/she licenses. The important issue now, as it has
always been, is the post licensing personal development.

I have no such such hope. Having watched hams compare there tests as
the best and making them better hams for 28 years and still grousing
about every change along the way, I know the Class warfare will
continue




Quite frankly, that will make those so called elite a worse problem than
the newbies coming into the service.

Now will be a time for Elmering and openness. I've sat and listened to
enough grumbling about Nickel Extras such as myself, right to my face,
from OT's who haven't done a thing for the service for years, talk about
how "Any idiot can become a Ham now." This happens more often than it
should.

break

I would've gotten right in their faces and asked them what they had done
lately for ham radio.

Good for you. glad to hear it and pleased be prepared to keep it up


I intend to provide as much help to the newcomers as possible, instead of
grousing about the "good old days", and steely eyed F.C.C testing agents.


Yup. There's no point in grousing. Besides one can turn the old
requirements into an icebreaker just by telling the story in a humorous way.

That I support Element 1 testing is of no consequence to the new people.


Absolutely correct. Of course, I'll attempt to foster learning the code and
code use. I'll just tell them about the rare and exotic DX that I've found
only on CW. And how most contests offer extra points for CW.

good luck on that truely


I suggest that the Ham who wants to be thought of as superior establish
that superiority by example, not by grousing or ridiculing the new folks.
Foster the idea that good manners and technical acumen is a good thing.


That is the only true measure.

Just some thoughts.....

- Mike KB3EIA -


Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote:
From: Michael Coslo on Jul 22, 11:03 am


wrote:

Observations:

- Although the majority of individuals who commented on the 18
proposals supported code testing, FCC proposes to completely
eliminate it.


That "observation" is ERRONEOUS unless the statistics work
can be presented to "prove" that the "majority 'supported'
code testing."

You talkin to me?


- There were a lot of ideas in the 18 proposals other than the code
test. FCC simply denied all suggestions for change *except* dumping
Element 1. Free upgrades for Advanceds and Novices? New entry level
classes? More HF bandspace/modes for Novices and Tech Pluses? "No" to
all of them.

- The changes of 2000 brought a lot of upgrades and some short-term
growth, but now the number of individuals with unexpired US ham
licenses is almost 10,000 below what it was in May of 2000. Nor has
there been any sort of "techno-revolution" from the reductions in code
testing.


Again, an ERRONEOUS observation based on rather public data
websites showing that the peak of licensee numbers happened
in July of 2003...and the drop to present-day numbers was only
TWO-THIRDS of that "10,000."

You talkin to me?


Predictions:

- There will not be a "revolution" in technology used by hams brought
by the new folks.

No, certainly not brought about by the new folks - as a group. But I
don't doubt that some of the new folks may very well involved.


What are you saying in that last sentence?

Since when has "a group" brought about sudden changes (a
"revolution")?

Seriously, who are you talkin to Len? You seem to be responding to half
of what Jim wrote, and half what I wrote. We're two different people. So
I'll reserve comment.

Nearly ALL technical innovation in amateur radio has been
brought on by INDIVIDUALS or individual corporations.

Once again.....

How can we have good conversations when it appears that you are arguing
with me while in the next sentence you are essentially agreeing with the
part that I wrote in my reply to Jim - yet you're still disagreeing with
me. Oy...


- The focus will shift to a debate about widening the 'phone subbands
or even having no mode subbands at all.

Yawn! That won't be anywhere near as much fun as the Element 1 debate!


TS

NP


One more thing that will happen, and I hope it doesn't. I anticipate a
bit of class warfare, as (some of) the code tested try to establish
superiority over the great unwashed who enter the ARS.


Great leaping whatzits! These Mighty Macho Morsemen have been
making "superiority" noises over others for DECADES!

The "class warfare" stuff was what created the old Byzantine
CLASS SYSTEM in U.S. ham radio!!!



Quite frankly, that will make those so called elite a worse problem
than the newbies coming into the service.


What you mean NOW, kimosabe?

Try 40 to 20 years before now. Seen it. Part of the reason I
never bothered with an amateur radio license was the attitudes
of the vocal yokels and their "authorized by the federal
government" importance and "superiority."

Why do you allow other people to force you to not do something? There
are plenty enough horses patoots on the air. But there are plenty more
who are fine folk.


Now will be a time for Elmering and openness. I've sat and listened to
enough grumbling about Nickel Extras such as myself, right to my face,

from OT's who haven't done a thing for the service for years, talk about

how "Any idiot can become a Ham now." This happens more often than it
should.


Total agreement with you on that!


I intend to provide as much help to the newcomers as possible, instead
of grousing about the "good old days", and steely eyed F.C.C testing agents.


:-)


That I support Element 1 testing is of no consequence to the new people.

I suggest that the Ham who wants to be thought of as superior establish
that superiority by example, not by grousing or ridiculing the new
folks. Foster the idea that good manners and technical acumen is a good
thing.


Will you nominate K4YZ to lead that group? :-) :-) :-)

Steve is his own person. Why do you ask? Are all pro-coders clones of
say our own ex-member Larry Roll? and are all no-coders clones of yourself?

I suppose it's easier to think that way.....

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


I suggest that the Ham who wants to be thought of as superior establish
that superiority by example, not by grousing or ridiculing the new folks.
Foster the idea that good manners and technical acumen is a good thing.

Just some thoughts.....

- Mike KB3EIA -



Not superior Mike, just more proficient as a radio operator, with more
communication capabilities than those without cw capabilities. Better able
to serve his/her community. Etc.

No argument on that, Dan. It's one of the reasons that I support Morse
testing. It's a skill that is just plain good to have. But being a
better operator is no reason to lord it over others. (I'm not saying
that you do - it's just for the discussion)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dee Flint wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


wrote:


Observations:

- Although the majority of individuals who commented on the 18
proposals supported code testing, FCC proposes to completely
eliminate it.

- There were a lot of ideas in the 18 proposals other than the code
test. FCC simply denied all suggestions for change *except* dumping
Element 1. Free upgrades for Advanceds and Novices? New entry level
classes? More HF bandspace/modes for Novices and Tech Pluses? "No" to
all of them.

- The changes of 2000 brought a lot of upgrades and some short-term
growth, but now the number of individuals with unexpired US ham
licenses is almost 10,000 below what it was in May of 2000. Nor has
there been any sort of "techno-revolution" from the reductions in code
testing.


Predictions:

- There will be a lot of debate and commentary. But in the end FCC will
just dump Element 1 and make no other changes.

Agreed


- There will be a lot of upgrades and a short-term peak in licenses.
But not long term growth.

Agreed


- The HF/MF bands will not be overrun with more activity.

MOre activity, but not likely overrun.


- There will not be a "revolution" in technology used by hams brought
by the new folks.

No, certainly not brought about by the new folks - as a group. But I don't
doubt that some of the new folks may very well involved.




- The focus will shift to a debate about widening the 'phone subbands
or even having no mode subbands at all.


Yawn! That won't be anywhere near as much fun as the Element 1 debate!

One more thing that will happen, and I hope it doesn't. I anticipate a bit
of class warfare, as (some of) the code tested try to establish
superiority over the great unwashed who enter the ARS.



Let's hope not. A prospective ham can only follow the licensing procedure
in place at the time he/she licenses. The important issue now, as it has
always been, is the post licensing personal development.


Quite frankly, that will make those so called elite a worse problem than
the newbies coming into the service.

Now will be a time for Elmering and openness. I've sat and listened to
enough grumbling about Nickel Extras such as myself, right to my face,
from OT's who haven't done a thing for the service for years, talk about
how "Any idiot can become a Ham now." This happens more often than it
should.



I would've gotten right in their faces and asked them what they had done
lately for ham radio.

Well, my mode of operation is not to get in peoples faces. If someone
does manage to get me mad, we usually have a private talk. Lets them
save face. Usually I just say something like "I resemble that remark!"

I intend to provide as much help to the newcomers as possible, instead of
grousing about the "good old days", and steely eyed F.C.C testing agents.



Yup. There's no point in grousing. Besides one can turn the old
requirements into an icebreaker just by telling the story in a humorous way.


That I support Element 1 testing is of no consequence to the new people.



Absolutely correct. Of course, I'll attempt to foster learning the code and
code use. I'll just tell them about the rare and exotic DX that I've found
only on CW. And how most contests offer extra points for CW.


I suggest that the Ham who wants to be thought of as superior establish
that superiority by example, not by grousing or ridiculing the new folks.
Foster the idea that good manners and technical acumen is a good thing.



That is the only true measure.

Will we measure up?

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...



[snip]

Now will be a time for Elmering and openness. I've sat and listened to
enough grumbling about Nickel Extras such as myself, right to my face,
from OT's who haven't done a thing for the service for years, talk about
how "Any idiot can become a Ham now." This happens more often than it
should.



I would've gotten right in their faces and asked them what they had done
lately for ham radio.

Well, my mode of operation is not to get in peoples faces. If someone does
manage to get me mad, we usually have a private talk. Lets them save face.
Usually I just say something like "I resemble that remark!"



Actually Mike, it depends. If they have spoken in private, I speak in
private. If they choose to make a fool of themselves in public, then I'll
help them along and point out that foolishness in public. I've had
experience with people who will deliberately put you down in public based on
the concept that you are too polite to respond in public. I had a former
husband who was like that and I finally had to go ahead and speak out in
public to get him to stop. Chewing him out in private did no good.

[snip]
I suggest that the Ham who wants to be thought of as superior establish
that superiority by example, not by grousing or ridiculing the new folks.
Foster the idea that good manners and technical acumen is a good thing.



That is the only true measure.

Will we measure up?

- Mike KB3EIA -

I hope so. I know both you and I and many others will try.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message

Will we measure up?

- Mike KB3EIA -

I hope so. I know both you and I and many others will try.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE



What, exactly, are people supposed to "measure up" to in ham radio? We are
all amateur radio operators. None of us has a thing to prove to the
other--at least not as far as I can see it. We each have our preferences,
etc. I would no more expect anyone to "measure up" to me; than I would have
them expect me to "measure up" to them.

That is a basic fault of amateur radio, I think--the "competitiveness" of
it. I think the minute that limitations are introduced into an environment,
it is set up for such a pitfall--because people cannot generally rise above
it. By the very nature of the licensing structure, ham radio is a
contentious environment.

Anyway, came into this late, and it chaps my hide to see people expecting
others to "measure up" to, what: their importance, or something? I don't
know...maybe I am misunderstanding this one post I've read in this thread.

Kim W5TIT
Not planning on trying to measure up to anything, but my own expectations of
myself.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Kim" wrote in message
...
"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message

Will we measure up?

- Mike KB3EIA -

I hope so. I know both you and I and many others will try.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE



What, exactly, are people supposed to "measure up" to in ham radio? We
are
all amateur radio operators. None of us has a thing to prove to the
other--at least not as far as I can see it. We each have our preferences,
etc. I would no more expect anyone to "measure up" to me; than I would
have
them expect me to "measure up" to them.

That is a basic fault of amateur radio, I think--the "competitiveness" of
it. I think the minute that limitations are introduced into an
environment,
it is set up for such a pitfall--because people cannot generally rise
above
it. By the very nature of the licensing structure, ham radio is a
contentious environment.

Anyway, came into this late, and it chaps my hide to see people expecting
others to "measure up" to, what: their importance, or something? I don't
know...maybe I am misunderstanding this one post I've read in this thread.

Kim W5TIT
Not planning on trying to measure up to anything, but my own expectations
of
myself.



To me it is doing my best to provide a good example and a good Elmer. That
is the standard to which I (and I believe Mike) hope to be able to measure
up to.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee:

Measure up?

Girl, take a look at the man holding the yardstick... a damn midget!

'nuff said...

John

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...



[snip]

Now will be a time for Elmering and openness. I've sat and
listened to enough grumbling about Nickel Extras such as myself,
right to my face, from OT's who haven't done a thing for the
service for years, talk about how "Any idiot can become a Ham
now." This happens more often than it should.



I would've gotten right in their faces and asked them what they
had done lately for ham radio.

Well, my mode of operation is not to get in peoples faces. If
someone does manage to get me mad, we usually have a private talk.
Lets them save face. Usually I just say something like "I resemble
that remark!"



Actually Mike, it depends. If they have spoken in private, I speak
in private. If they choose to make a fool of themselves in public,
then I'll help them along and point out that foolishness in public.
I've had experience with people who will deliberately put you down
in public based on the concept that you are too polite to respond in
public. I had a former husband who was like that and I finally had
to go ahead and speak out in public to get him to stop. Chewing him
out in private did no good.

[snip]
I suggest that the Ham who wants to be thought of as superior
establish that superiority by example, not by grousing or
ridiculing the new folks. Foster the idea that good manners and
technical acumen is a good thing.



That is the only true measure.

Will we measure up?

- Mike KB3EIA -

I hope so. I know both you and I and many others will try.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Kim wrote:

Anyway, came into this late, and it chaps my hide to see people expecting
others to "measure up" to, what: their importance, or something? I don't
know...maybe I am misunderstanding this one post I've read in this thread.

Don't get chapped Kim! There are a lot of different people in the
world, with all kinds of different ideas on how things "ought to be". My
version of that is that people should have respect for each other, and
be considerate of each other. I also like the concept of bettering ones
self through acquisition of knowledge and skills, and that people should
be an asset to, and to give back to their communities. I'm also aware
that a lot of people think that my ideas are some sort of sugar coated
dreck.

My sole failing is that I get a bit of enjoyment in knowing that that
irritates the crap out of some people for some reason! 8^)

Well okay - its not my only failing. Mr Anderson and Mr Smith can
probably fill you in on the others....

Okay, for them, but I'm not going to change my mind.

Kim W5TIT
Not planning on trying to measure up to anything, but my own expectations of
myself.

We can't really ask for much more!

- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:
Dee:

Measure up?

Girl, take a look at the man holding the yardstick... a damn midget!

'nuff said...

John doesn't seem to like me much, eh Dee?

- Mike KB3EIA -