wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
Boy did you fall for a bunch of propaganda!

Amen. In spades.

As far as the declining number of manufacturers goes,
the normal progression in any business
is towards fewer companies serving the market.
Unless one takes steps to stop it, a
free market economy goes through a cycle.
New product with lots of new companies. Then
continuing consolidation until there is a near monopoly by
one or a handful of companies.

That's true in general Dee but what "declining number
of manufacturers"
- within the context of ham radio? It just ain't so.
I suspect that if
somebody put the effort into pulling together the actual
facts they'd
find that the total number of manufacturers in the ham
radio market is
higher today than it's ever been in the past.

Well, let's see...

Back in the '60s we had Collins, Drake, National,
Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, Gonset, Heath, Swan, Johnson...
and that's about it for major manufacturers of ham gear
that lasted more than a few years and made more than a
few products. Even in the above list there were limitations
because many of the above did not offer a complete line (EFJ
made mostly transmitters, for example).

Today we have Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, TenTec, Alinco, Standard,
Elecraft, SGC, and maybe a few more. But see below.

Almost all of the "glory-days" U.S. supply siders went bust or
abandoned the ham radio market and moved on to survive when the JA's landed 1975-1980. Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, Alinco, Honda,
Toyota and
Datsun pulled off what Yamamoto and Nagumo failed to pull off
their way
a bit earlier. Within ham radio Hallicrafters, Swan, National,
Hammarlund, Drake and Heath simply evaporated with barely a
trace left
in the ham biz, Collins is one which simply moved on. Not a
consolidation in sight anywhere.

Yep. In some cases it was that the founder had died or retired, and the
company wasn't able to adjust to the new market reality.

This didn't just happen in ham gear - consumer electronics
went the same route. PCs followed.

Off on another tangent consider the implications of another
aspect:
Collins offered only two basics routes a ham could use to get
on the HF
bands with their gear at any given point in time. One xcvr and one pair
of separates. Period. Ditto Drake and for the most part Heath
too.

Drake and Heath had slightly more elaborate product lines - but not by
much. The point is still valid, though. The variety of new rigs today
is amazing.

Here's a game: Look up all the "100 watt class" HF rigs available today
(mid 2005). Compare to what was available 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.
I bet today's variety is the largest.

Those three companies overwhelmingly dominated the HF ham
gear market
for years. Today Icom is offering four desktop HF xcvrs
with two more
in the pipeline, Kenwood offers four, and Yeasu has seven
in their
catalog with another one coming. Ten-tec and Elecraft are doing nicely.

Yup - even the small outfits offer product lines that are more
diverse than the big boys offered in "the bad old days".

Not counting all the HF mobile rigs and the equipment being
developed in various skunk works.

*And* not counting the enormous variety of clean, late-model used
equipment that is still very much usable. Take TenTec - if an Orion is
too much and you don't like the Jupiter, there's the Omni 6 in various
flavors, its predecessor the Omni V, the Pegasus, the Paragon, and the
Corsair 2, among others.

Yeah it's a free market economy cycle alrighty.

We've never had it better and it keeps getting better.

The big change is the cost in inflation-adjusted dollars.

The other night I saw an ad for the Kenwood TS-520 in a 1975 QST. $629.
That was back in the days when a new car was less than $4000 and
starting salary for a degreed engineer was maybe $12,000.

That TS-520 was a nice rig in its time, and can still do a good job.
But it won't do the WARC bands, has analog readout, no passband tuning,
no ATU, no RS-232 port, no memories and no blanker. The external second
VFO, CW filter, 12VDC supply and digital readout were extra-cost
features ($179 for the digital readout alone!)

It did have three tubes inside (driver and finals) and you could turn
off their heaters if you wanted. Of course you had to tune it up...

What's $629 from 1975 equate to in 2005, adjusted for inflation?
Probably as much as an IC-756 costs now.

Or look at the SB-101 from the mid 1960s. $369 for the rig, almost
another hundred for the power supply, CW filter and speaker. Say $450 -
for a kit! What's that in today's dollars?


73 de Jim, N2EY

From: "John Smith" on Fri 22 Jul 2005 21:08

Geesh...

You guys are for real huh?
You think code and a radio makes you special guys?

It does in their minds. They are the PCTA *Extras*!

Was the license really so difficult for you, you believe the rest of
us with much different opinions are stupid and find it that big a
challenge?

Yes they do. :-)

PCTA extras are the Gods of Radio! [amateur radio, that is]

I started building tesla coils at ~10, I got my novice ticket and
built my first single tube transmitter when I was 12, my first degree
was in electronic engineering in '72... I ate this chit up... I was
bored and didn't know what I wanted to be--until they invented the
computer... I returned to college in 1978 and got my BS in CS in 1981
along with a BA in journalism, I completed my MS in CS in '83...
since then I have always taught a night class at the local jr. college
and continue to take classes at the local university to stay current
and be with fresh young minds...

Careful, John, careful. Gonad the Librarian (K4YZ) will come
in here and totally denounce "night classes" as something for
immigrants or "stupids." :-)

Get real... lay down the opium pipe and step out of the gutter!

That be a bit strong, John. Tom/Garique is basically an OK
kind of guy. It's the OTHER PCTA extras in here who need
their hairy legs (covered by jackboots) shaved a bit (words
toned down considerably to be 'courteous' to the arrogant).

And, I just consider myself an average guy (you should see my sister,
she has all the brains in the family!)... of course, I do live in a
nice neighborhood and have nice neighbors...

Oh, no...another segue into Real Estate and Mortgages! :-)

That's even worse than "ham balloons reaching the threshold
of space!" [which others have already done but one in here
wants congratulatory messages praising him for announcing
he is "going to do it!"]

There can be NO controversial commentary on the code test
for radio amateurs in here. All MUST do it to show their
dedication and committment to the amateur community! It
has always been that way and it must always be! It is the
heart and soul of U.S. amateur radio! CW uber alles!!
Sieg heil!!!

Oops, got carried away with PCTA spirit words there... :-)

bit bit

Len:

Trust me, there are no "stupid people" in the class I will be
instructing this fall... "C++", well, they are all gone by the end of
the first quiz, at the latest...

John

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "John Smith" on Fri 22 Jul 2005 21:08

Geesh...

You guys are for real huh?
You think code and a radio makes you special guys?

It does in their minds. They are the PCTA *Extras*!

Was the license really so difficult for you, you believe the rest of
us with much different opinions are stupid and find it that big a
challenge?

Yes they do. :-)

PCTA extras are the Gods of Radio! [amateur radio, that is]

I started building tesla coils at ~10, I got my novice ticket and
built my first single tube transmitter when I was 12, my first
degree
was in electronic engineering in '72... I ate this chit up... I was
bored and didn't know what I wanted to be--until they invented the
computer... I returned to college in 1978 and got my BS in CS in
1981
along with a BA in journalism, I completed my MS in CS in '83...
since then I have always taught a night class at the local jr.
college
and continue to take classes at the local university to stay current
and be with fresh young minds...

Careful, John, careful. Gonad the Librarian (K4YZ) will come
in here and totally denounce "night classes" as something for
immigrants or "stupids." :-)

Get real... lay down the opium pipe and step out of the gutter!

That be a bit strong, John. Tom/Garique is basically an OK
kind of guy. It's the OTHER PCTA extras in here who need
their hairy legs (covered by jackboots) shaved a bit (words
toned down considerably to be 'courteous' to the arrogant).

And, I just consider myself an average guy (you should see my
sister,
she has all the brains in the family!)... of course, I do live in a
nice neighborhood and have nice neighbors...

Oh, no...another segue into Real Estate and Mortgages! :-)

That's even worse than "ham balloons reaching the threshold
of space!" [which others have already done but one in here
wants congratulatory messages praising him for announcing
he is "going to do it!"]

There can be NO controversial commentary on the code test
for radio amateurs in here. All MUST do it to show their
dedication and committment to the amateur community! It
has always been that way and it must always be! It is the
heart and soul of U.S. amateur radio! CW uber alles!!
Sieg heil!!!

Oops, got carried away with PCTA spirit words there... :-)

bit bit

From: John Smith on Jul 23, 11:38 am

[ on Night School ]

Trust me, there are no "stupid people" in the class I will be
instructing this fall... "C++", well, they are all gone by the end of
the first quiz, at the latest...

You are a TOUGH instructor! Not letting students get a B,
making them settle for a C++....... :-)

I think you should insert at least one class on the morse code.
That's the state-of-the-art communications code first used in
1844 and again in 1896 at the first demonstrations of radio as
a communications means! "Tradition" and all that... :-)

For the geeks, there is Fortran IV. For the get-ahead-in-
business types, Cobol. For the girlie-men, Lisp. :-)

Then there's Bentley's Commercial Codes, a superencipherment
on top of morse code, several editions...one of the bringers
of the "five-letter-group" concept for a telegraphic "word."

By the time you get to DES you will have everyone primed for
NSA and CIA and DIA. But, FIRST, they ALL have to do the
morse CODE! Muy importante!

bit bit


[a former voting member of the ACM]

Yep Len:

Bit tough here. Gawd, I was shocked last semester... thought a couple
of girly-men had snuck into my class... on closer inspection I found
it was just some very assertive women--I let 'em stay...

Lisp for girly-men? I love that idea! ROFLOL!
grin

John

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: John Smith on Jul 23, 11:38 am

[ on Night School ]

Trust me, there are no "stupid people" in the class I will be
instructing this fall... "C++", well, they are all gone by the end
of
the first quiz, at the latest...

You are a TOUGH instructor! Not letting students get a B,
making them settle for a C++....... :-)

I think you should insert at least one class on the morse code.
That's the state-of-the-art communications code first used in
1844 and again in 1896 at the first demonstrations of radio as
a communications means! "Tradition" and all that... :-)

For the geeks, there is Fortran IV. For the get-ahead-in-
business types, Cobol. For the girlie-men, Lisp. :-)

Then there's Bentley's Commercial Codes, a superencipherment
on top of morse code, several editions...one of the bringers
of the "five-letter-group" concept for a telegraphic "word."

By the time you get to DES you will have everyone primed for
NSA and CIA and DIA. But, FIRST, they ALL have to do the
morse CODE! Muy importante!

bit bit


[a former voting member of the ACM]

wrote:
wrote:

I knew I'd coax you outta yer lair when I tossed that one out.

I suspect that if
somebody put the effort into pulling together the actual
facts they'd
find that the total number of manufacturers in the ham
radio market is
higher today than it's ever been in the past.

Well, let's see...

Back in the '60s we had Collins, Drake, National,
Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, Gonset, Heath, Swan, Johnson...

.. . . five dollar 12V ARC-5 Jeep radios . . . or were they 6V?

and that's about it for major manufacturers of ham gear
that lasted more than a few years and made more than a
few products. Even in the above list there were limitations
because many of the above did not offer a complete line (EFJ
made mostly transmitters, for example).

Today we have Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, TenTec, Alinco, Standard,
Elecraft, SGC, and maybe a few more. But see below.

.. . . yeah, OK so far . . .

. . . Within ham radio Hallicrafters, Swan, National,
Hammarlund, Drake and Heath simply evaporated with barely a
trace left . . .

Yep. In some cases it was that the founder had died or retired, and the
company wasn't able to adjust to the new market reality.

Founders exits aside it was the "adjusting to the new market realities"
which knocked out the U.S. radio builders. GM is still trying to catch
up with Honda. Darwin prevails.

. . . Collins offered only two basics routes a ham could use to get
on the HF
bands with their gear at any given point in time. One xcvr and one pair
of separates. Period. Ditto Drake and for the most part Heath
too.

Drake and Heath had slightly more elaborate product lines - but not by
much. The point is still valid, though. The variety of new rigs today
is amazing.

Not even a discussion.

Here's a game: Look up all the "100 watt class" HF rigs available today
(mid 2005). Compare to what was available 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.
I bet today's variety is the largest.

Not even a discussion

Not counting all the HF mobile rigs and the equipment being
developed in various skunk works.

*And* not counting the enormous variety of clean, late-model used
equipment that is still very much usable. Take TenTec - if an Orion is
too much and you don't like the Jupiter, there's the Omni 6 in various
flavors, its predecessor the Omni V, the Pegasus, the Paragon, and the
Corsair 2, among others.

Well yeah, scarfing up used gear to get more bang for the buck has been
a ham tradition going back into the mists of time long before either of
us came about.

The other night I saw an ad for the Kenwood TS-520 in a 1975 QST. $629.
That was back in the days when a new car was less than $4000 and
starting salary for a degreed engineer was maybe $12,000.

Sounds low to me because most of my classmates started for $9-10k right
out of school in 1963. I started for $7,600 for the gummint which was
quite low then.

Or look at the SB-101 from the mid 1960s. $369 for the rig, almost
another hundred for the power supply, CW filter and speaker. Say $450 -
for a kit! What's that in today's dollars?

Beats me but the point is there.

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

Geesh...

You guys are for real huh?
You think code and a radio makes you special guys?

Ah com' on John ....did you ever hear me say anything about CW being special
...... in fact the older I get the less "specialness" means to be ..... as
if it really meant anything back then .....



Was the license really so difficult for you, you believe the rest of
us with much different opinions are stupid and find it that big a
challenge?


Never studpidity ....motivation .... well based on some of the arguments I
have seen here and in my ham d'jour life ....it just seems that if someone
really wanted HF privlidges then suck it up ...study a bit ...pass and have
the ritualistic back yard key burial .......then get on with life ..... but
that apparently will not be necessary now .....no carping ...just fact
.....and I will welcome anyone to the bands and if they are on CW without
being tested ...no big deal. I call that a win for band useage which we
need and for ham radio in general ....




I started building tesla coils at ~10, I got my novice ticket and
built my first single tube transmitter when I was 12, my first degree
was in electronic engineering in '72... I ate this chit up... I was
bored and didn't know what I wanted to be--until they invented the
computer... I returned to college in 1978 and got my BS in CS in 1981
along with a BA in journalism, I completed my MS in CS in '83...
since then I have always taught a night class at the local jr. college
and continue to take classes at the local university to stay current
and be with fresh young minds...


Gee John ...then why are your posts so bizzare ??? I really don't like to
prejudge anyone but your comments over the last several months really don't
reflect the above ...I am sorry if I say this but I am a bit surprized ....
I deal a lot with "old timers" in my profession .....and I find them
interesting and their journey through this life more so in a positive rather
then a negative ..... Also comments about people with problems, disabilities
and diseases don't fit.


Get real... lay down the opium pipe and step out of the gutter!


Huh .....???? oh well ...never tried the stuff thank God but I do like
a couple of beers now and then ....


And, I just consider myself an average guy (you should see my sister,
she has all the brains in the family!)... of course, I do live in a
nice neighborhood and have nice neighbors...

John


I'm glad you do ...as I have good ones also ....have to tell you one of
these days about my old ones ... .."adventures in paradise" ...... complete
with the pit bulls and multiple 20 second visits from strangers throughout
the day ....

Take care John ...73 Tom KI3R

That be a bit strong, John. Tom/Garique is basically an OK
kind of guy.

Gee Len ...thanks .... my wife tells me the same thing .....

I think that most of the people in here are OK .....just some more OK than
others ....


Have a good one Len ..take care .....

dit dit beep beep or brap brap .....whatever that means ....

Tom KI3R

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

I knew I'd coax you outta yer lair when I tossed that one out.

bwaahaahaa

Back in the '60s we had Collins, Drake, National,
Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, Gonset, Heath, Swan, Johnson...

. . . five dollar 12V ARC-5 Jeep radios . . . or were they 6V?

I've seen 12 volt ARC-5s (special units from a collection) and it was
no hard task to convert them for six volts. Easy compared to
homebrewing.

and that's about it for major manufacturers of ham gear
that lasted more than a few years and made more than a
few products. Even in the above list there were limitations
because many of the above did not offer a complete line (EFJ
made mostly transmitters, for example).

Today we have Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, TenTec, Alinco, Standard,
Elecraft, SGC, and maybe a few more. But see below.

. . . yeah, OK so far . . .

. . . Within ham radio Hallicrafters, Swan, National,
Hammarlund, Drake and Heath simply evaporated with barely a
trace left . . .

Yep. In some cases it was that the founder had died
or retired, and the
company wasn't able to adjust to the new market reality.

Founders exits aside it was the "adjusting to the new
market realities"
which knocked out the U.S. radio builders. GM is
still trying to catch
up with Honda. Darwin prevails.

Darwin got some help in those areas, though. Detroit spent the '50s and
'60s building big cars and was completely surprised by the oil
embargoes. American electronics manufacturers, run
by "PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO", didn't know how to compete with
Japanese products. The rest is history.

. . . Collins offered only two basics routes a ham
could use to get on the HF
bands with their gear at any given point in time. One xcvr and one pair
of separates. Period. Ditto Drake and for the most part Heath
too.

Drake and Heath had slightly more elaborate product lines - but not by
much. The point is still valid, though. The variety of new rigs today
is amazing.

Not even a discussion.

Here's a game: Look up all the "100 watt class" HF rigs available today
(mid 2005). Compare to what was available 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.
I bet today's variety is the largest.

Not even a discussion

Not counting all the HF mobile rigs and the equipment being
developed in various skunk works.

*And* not counting the enormous variety of clean, late-model used
equipment that is still very much usable. Take TenTec - if an Orion is
too much and you don't like the Jupiter, there's the Omni 6 in various
flavors, its predecessor the Omni V, the Pegasus, the Paragon, and the
Corsair 2, among others.

Well yeah, scarfing up used gear to get more bang
for the buck has been
a ham tradition going back into the mists
of time long before either of
us came about.

Yup. Or converting surplus - military or otherwise. Hams were doing
that in the 1920s with surplus tubes - WW1 surplus tubes....

The other night I saw an ad for the Kenwood TS-520 in a 1975
QST. $629.
That was back in the days when a new car was less than $4000 and
starting salary for a degreed engineer was maybe $12,000.

Sounds low to me because most of my classmates started for $9-
10k right
out of school in 1963. I started for $7,600 for the gummint
which was
quite low then.

Inflation in the '60s was quite low too until the end.

Or look at the SB-101 from the mid 1960s. $369 for the rig,
almost
another hundred for the power supply, CW filter and
speaker. Say $450 -
for a kit! What's that in today's dollars?

Beats me but the point is there.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation

says:

$629 in 1975 inflates to $2355.99 in 2005

and

$450 in 1965 inflates to $2681.16 in 2005

Either of those will buy quite a bit more rig than a TS-520S or SB-101.

73 de Jim, N2EY

garigue:

Ahhh, this is all a moot point.

From here on out we will just have to concentrate on keeping CW to a
minimum.

All CW will do is PI$$ OFF the CB'ers as they screw to have the key
thumpers shove the morse where the sun doesn't shine...

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh.... grin

John

"garigue" wrote in message
...


Geesh...

You guys are for real huh?
You think code and a radio makes you special guys?

Ah com' on John ....did you ever hear me say anything about CW being
special
..... in fact the older I get the less "specialness" means to be
..... as
if it really meant anything back then .....



Was the license really so difficult for you, you believe the rest
of
us with much different opinions are stupid and find it that big a
challenge?


Never studpidity ....motivation .... well based on some of the
arguments I
have seen here and in my ham d'jour life ....it just seems that if
someone
really wanted HF privlidges then suck it up ...study a bit ...pass
and have
the ritualistic back yard key burial .......then get on with life
..... but
that apparently will not be necessary now .....no carping ...just
fact
....and I will welcome anyone to the bands and if they are on CW
without
being tested ...no big deal. I call that a win for band useage
which we
need and for ham radio in general ....




I started building tesla coils at ~10, I got my novice ticket and
built my first single tube transmitter when I was 12, my first
degree
was in electronic engineering in '72... I ate this chit up... I
was
bored and didn't know what I wanted to be--until they invented the
computer... I returned to college in 1978 and got my BS in CS in
1981
along with a BA in journalism, I completed my MS in CS in '83...
since then I have always taught a night class at the local jr.
college
and continue to take classes at the local university to stay
current
and be with fresh young minds...


Gee John ...then why are your posts so bizzare ??? I really don't
like to
prejudge anyone but your comments over the last several months
really don't
reflect the above ...I am sorry if I say this but I am a bit
surprized ....
I deal a lot with "old timers" in my profession .....and I find them
interesting and their journey through this life more so in a
positive rather
then a negative ..... Also comments about people with problems,
disabilities
and diseases don't fit.


Get real... lay down the opium pipe and step out of the gutter!


Huh .....???? oh well ...never tried the stuff thank God but I
do like
a couple of beers now and then ....


And, I just consider myself an average guy (you should see my
sister,
she has all the brains in the family!)... of course, I do live in a
nice neighborhood and have nice neighbors...

John


I'm glad you do ...as I have good ones also ....have to tell you one
of
these days about my old ones ... .."adventures in paradise" ......
complete
with the pit bulls and multiple 20 second visits from strangers
throughout
the day ....

Take care John ...73 Tom KI3R