Note the date.

http://tinyurl.com/bg5gc

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote in message
ups.com...
Note the date.

http://tinyurl.com/bg5gc

73 de Jim, N2EY

It was never about CW/Morse code, just the effort required to learn it.
Requiring anything for which there is no open question/answer pool will
generate the same bellyaching, including the Smith Chart.

--
Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI
FISTS #9384/CC #1736
QRP ARCI #11782

Bert:

Interesting idea.

No question pools!!!

Maybe apply that same principal to colleges. Don't put any relevant
material necessary to pass the course in the textbook. Then have the
instructor NEVER speak of anything which will be on the test.

Now that would be a real test of what the students know!!! Teach 'em
nothing and make the test DAMN DIFFICULT!

I just love the original ideas people come up with here...

John

"Bert Craig" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
Note the date.

http://tinyurl.com/bg5gc

73 de Jim, N2EY

It was never about CW/Morse code, just the effort required to learn
it. Requiring anything for which there is no open question/answer
pool will generate the same bellyaching, including the Smith Chart.

--
Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI
FISTS #9384/CC #1736
QRP ARCI #11782

John Smith wrote:
Bert:

Interesting idea.

No question pools!!!

Maybe apply that same principal to colleges. Don't put any relevant
material necessary to pass the course in the textbook. Then have the
instructor NEVER speak of anything which will be on the test.

Now that would be a real test of what the students know!!! Teach 'em
nothing and make the test DAMN DIFFICULT!

I just love the original ideas people come up with here...

John

Jim/N2EY was the original "No Test International" proponent.

But the Cecil/Jim proposal has a serious flaw. Few if any VE's have
the ability to differentiate a right solution from a wrong solution.
They might need to have look over their shoulder's. Hi!

bb

"Bert Craig" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
Note the date.

http://tinyurl.com/bg5gc

73 de Jim, N2EY

It was never about CW/Morse code, just the effort required to learn
it. Requiring anything for which there is no open question/answer
pool will generate the same bellyaching, including the Smith Chart.

It came down to a cost/benefit analysis. None of the services had the
time or money to continue training people to emulate a modem. As an
antiquated radio service, amateur radio can force people to do things
that no other service is willing to do.

Bert Craig wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Note the date.

http://tinyurl.com/bg5gc

73 de Jim, N2EY

It was never about CW/Morse code, just the effort required to learn it.

the US Govt is not supoosed to engage in S&M as part of public policy

Requiring anything for which there is no open question/answer pool will
generate the same bellyaching, including the Smith Chart.

--
Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI
FISTS #9384/CC #1736
QRP ARCI #11782

From: "b.b." on Sun 24 Jul 2005 09:11

John Smith wrote:
Bert:

Interesting idea.

No question pools!!!

Maybe apply that same principal to colleges. Don't put any relevant
material necessary to pass the course in the textbook. Then have the
instructor NEVER speak of anything which will be on the test.

Now that would be a real test of what the students know!!! Teach 'em
nothing and make the test DAMN DIFFICULT!

I just love the original ideas people come up with here...

John

Jim/N2EY was the original "No Test International" proponent.

But the Cecil/Jim proposal has a serious flaw. Few if any VE's have
the ability to differentiate a right solution from a wrong solution.

Brian, ya have to cut "john smith" some slack in here...he
hasn't seen the Battle Royals of the Mighty Macho Morsemen
against the no-code-test forces of evil in older days. :-)

Absolutely the BEST in my mind was the wonderfully-done
parody of No Code International called "No SSB International"
and 'sponsored' by Jim Kehler, KH2D. A whole website devoted
to entirely destroying any no-code-test movements. Alas, no
more "No SSB International" but NCI is still chugging right
along. Kehler left Guam and moved to the states, hasn't been
in here much, but his satirical bite can still be felt on
his own little home page.

Jimmie Noserve tried his best satirical rant with the "NTI"
thing and drew a blank. He was trying to pick up on Smith
Charts as a diatribe-weapon, falling short on his attempts
at making such knowledge sound foolish.

"Smith Charts" aren't ham lore. Smith Charts are a terrific
aid in seeing solutions to complex impedances over frequency
but Phil Smith's wonderful diagram came out of pre-WW2
testing of telephone lines! Telephony involves voice and
the Mighty Macho Morsemen will have none of voice! That the
entire RF industry picked up on Smith Charts, used them, even
had the format hardwired into test instrumentation, is beside
the point. Jimmie, a supposed professional in electronics,
despises professionalism, the rest of the RF world, and any
no-coder within spitting distance.

They might need to have look over their shoulder's. Hi!

BWAAAAHAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Brian, I doubt there's enough money in the ARRL treasury to
pay me for that task! :-)

The FCC is NOT an academic organization and its "tests" are
just regulatory tools, a part of the licensing process the FCC
uses to regulate ALL of U.S. civil radio. It's no more than
that...but lots and lots of hams are into the FANTASY that it
shows some "expertise" in radio. Such test passings show
ONLY that an individual has passed a few tests. Note: Some
like to puff up their chests and say "they are authorized
by the federal government(!)" as if they were junior G-men.

Privatized radio operator testing is a part of NOW and has
been for several years. [privatization of other government
regulations has been the norm too] As such, multiple-choice
questions are the logical choice for private testers...avoids
the need for testing the testers on their ability to discern
correct written responses from wrong ones. That avoids all
the layering of beaurocracy that so many bitch about. The
multiple-choice format has been around for decades and there's
nothing actually wrong with it (except in the newsgroup
environment where everyone seems to be an "expert" on testing).

Further, the FCC only states that a MINIMUM of ten questions
for each of the required questions per written test element
for a class be generated. There is NO LIMIT on the maximum
number! The questions (and answers) themselves left
ENTIRELY up to the VEC Question Pool Committee. The VEC QPC
is made up ONLY of licensed radio amateurs. By law.

Those who **** and moan about "today's multiple-choice" need
to contact the VEC QPC...their fellows in the 'amateur
community.' Open Pools are NOT going away as long as
privatized testing exists. All that "memorization" BS is
just BS by the olde-tymers who probably haven't taken a
single written test of any kind in over a decade (except
maybe a driver's license thing, depending on their state).

Could anyone "memorize" a thousand questions...along with
the single correct answer against three other incorrect
answers? Might be possible for stage actors, I don't know
for sure. I'm only acquainted with a few TV and screen
actors of less than stellar rank...they have learned to
memorize dialogue LINES, at least enough for a day's
shooting (perhaps 6 to 8 pages of standard-format script).

So, given a thousand questions, a thousand correct answers,
and three thousand incorrect answers, I doubt that all but
a rare few eidetic-aptitude humans could "ace" such a test.
That "memorization passing" excuse used by so many is just
BS...BS of low quality at that, lots of smell but of little
value.

U.S. amateur radio is a HOBBY, not an occupation, not some
vital service to the nation. I just wish that more would
treat it as such instead of wandering off in the haze of
their clouded imaginations about their "federal
authorization" license and imagined self-importance.

bit bit

John Smith wrote:
Bert:

Interesting idea.

No question pools!!!

Maybe apply that same principal to colleges. Don't put any relevant
material necessary to pass the course in the textbook. Then have the
instructor NEVER speak of anything which will be on the test.

Now that would be a real test of what the students know!!! Teach 'em
nothing and make the test DAMN DIFFICULT!

I just love the original ideas people come up with here...

John


So just give the students a pool of questions, some of which will be on
the test, then give them all the answers to those questions. Sure
wouldn't want to be treated by an MD that passed his exams that way.

Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote:
John Smith wrote:
Bert:

Interesting idea.

No question pools!!!

Maybe apply that same principal to colleges. Don't put any relevant
material necessary to pass the course in the textbook. Then have the
instructor NEVER speak of anything which will be on the test.

Now that would be a real test of what the students know!!! Teach 'em
nothing and make the test DAMN DIFFICULT!

I just love the original ideas people come up with here...

John


break

So just give the students a pool of questions, some of which will be on
the test, then give them all the answers to those questions. Sure
wouldn't want to be treated by an MD that passed his exams that way.

don't go the docs in the US then

wrote:
From: "b.b." on Sun 24 Jul 2005 09:11

John Smith wrote:
Bert:

Interesting idea.

No question pools!!!

Maybe apply that same principal to colleges. Don't put any relevant
material necessary to pass the course in the textbook. Then have the
instructor NEVER speak of anything which will be on the test.

Now that would be a real test of what the students know!!! Teach 'em
nothing and make the test DAMN DIFFICULT!

I just love the original ideas people come up with here...

John

Jim/N2EY was the original "No Test International" proponent.

But the Cecil/Jim proposal has a serious flaw. Few if any VE's have
the ability to differentiate a right solution from a wrong solution.

Brian, ya have to cut "john smith" some slack in here...he
hasn't seen the Battle Royals of the Mighty Macho Morsemen
against the no-code-test forces of evil in older days. :-)

Absolutely the BEST in my mind was the wonderfully-done
parody of No Code International called "No SSB International"
and 'sponsored' by Jim Kehler, KH2D. A whole website devoted
to entirely destroying any no-code-test movements. Alas, no
more "No SSB International" but NCI is still chugging right
along. Kehler left Guam and moved to the states, hasn't been
in here much, but his satirical bite can still be felt on
his own little home page.

Jimmie Noserve tried his best satirical rant with the "NTI"
thing and drew a blank. He was trying to pick up on Smith
Charts as a diatribe-weapon, falling short on his attempts
at making such knowledge sound foolish.

But I think Jim/N2EY worked hard at it. At least as hard as KH2D.
Perhaps his mind isn't as efficient as Kehler's.

"Smith Charts" aren't ham lore. Smith Charts are a terrific
aid in seeing solutions to complex impedances over frequency
but Phil Smith's wonderful diagram came out of pre-WW2
testing of telephone lines!

Say it isn't so!

Telephony involves voice and
the Mighty Macho Morsemen will have none of voice! That the
entire RF industry picked up on Smith Charts, used them, even
had the format hardwired into test instrumentation, is beside
the point. Jimmie, a supposed professional in electronics,
despises professionalism, the rest of the RF world, and any
no-coder within spitting distance.

Or sputtering distance.

They might need to have look over their shoulder's. Hi!

BWAAAAHAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Brian, I doubt there's enough money in the ARRL treasury to
pay me for that task! :-)

It would be formidable...

The FCC is NOT an academic organization and its "tests" are
just regulatory tools, a part of the licensing process the FCC
uses to regulate ALL of U.S. civil radio. It's no more than
that...but lots and lots of hams are into the FANTASY that it
shows some "expertise" in radio. Such test passings show
ONLY that an individual has passed a few tests.

Paper chasers...

Everything has to be documented until it comes time to back their
claims.

Note: Some
like to puff up their chests and say "they are authorized
by the federal government(!)" as if they were junior G-men.

As if???

Privatized radio operator testing is a part of NOW and has
been for several years. [privatization of other government
regulations has been the norm too] As such, multiple-choice
questions are the logical choice for private testers...avoids
the need for testing the testers on their ability to discern
correct written responses from wrong ones.

That is the only way that it can work.

That avoids all
the layering of beaurocracy that so many bitch about. The
multiple-choice format has been around for decades and there's
nothing actually wrong with it (except in the newsgroup
environment where everyone seems to be an "expert" on testing).

They are many, many things.

Further, the FCC only states that a MINIMUM of ten questions
for each of the required questions per written test element
for a class be generated. There is NO LIMIT on the maximum
number! The questions (and answers) themselves left
ENTIRELY up to the VEC Question Pool Committee. The VEC QPC
is made up ONLY of licensed radio amateurs. By law.

And they can completely violate the Morse Code timing of elements. No
wonder the FCC doesn't have a definition of Morse Code within the U.S.
Statutes.

Those who **** and moan about "today's multiple-choice" need
to contact the VEC QPC...their fellows in the 'amateur
community.' Open Pools are NOT going away as long as
privatized testing exists. All that "memorization" BS is
just BS by the olde-tymers who probably haven't taken a
single written test of any kind in over a decade (except
maybe a driver's license thing, depending on their state).

Some states have mandatory retesting for the elderly.

Could anyone "memorize" a thousand questions...along with
the single correct answer against three other incorrect
answers? Might be possible for stage actors, I don't know
for sure. I'm only acquainted with a few TV and screen
actors of less than stellar rank...they have learned to
memorize dialogue LINES, at least enough for a day's
shooting (perhaps 6 to 8 pages of standard-format script).

Don't go giving them ideas. I can see at least one pretending to be a
TV weatherman with one page of dialogue.

So, given a thousand questions, a thousand correct answers,
and three thousand incorrect answers, I doubt that all but
a rare few eidetic-aptitude humans could "ace" such a test.
That "memorization passing" excuse used by so many is just
BS...BS of low quality at that, lots of smell but of little
value.

They will claim that all new hams have photographic memories. It will
be the only way of distinguishing themselves from the "riff-raff."

U.S. amateur radio is a HOBBY, not an occupation, not some
vital service to the nation. I just wish that more would
treat it as such instead of wandering off in the haze of
their clouded imaginations about their "federal
authorization" license and imagined self-importance.

bit bit


I consider it an important radio service that could be utilized in the
service to nation. But I doubt that every single citizen or government
agency can be guaranteed emergency communications via amateur radio, no
matter what the MMM would have you think.

wrote:

So, given a thousand questions, a thousand correct answers,
and three thousand incorrect answers, I doubt that all but
a rare few eidetic-aptitude humans could "ace" such a test.
That "memorization passing" excuse used by so many is just
BS...BS of low quality at that, lots of smell but of little
value.

But so far YOU can't pass a test with only 35 questions in it...So
why the subterfuge about 1000...?!?!

U.S. amateur radio is a HOBBY...(SNIP)

Says who?

The FCC doesn't.

No where in Part 97 does the word "hobby" appear.

Are there people who participate in Amateur Radio as a
"HOBBY"...?!?! Certainly..just as there are people who participate in
Emergency Medical Services, Search And Rescue, Meals-on-Wheels, etc for
whatever personal gratification they can glean from it.

That people do "have fun" does NOT negate the value of the Amateur
Radio SERVICE as the disaster relief, emergency communications and
health and welfare medium that it ALSO is.

(UNSNIP)...not an occupation...(SNIP)

It is to many. It provides jobs.

(UNSNIP)...not some vital service to the nation.

It is that too.

That YOU don't think it is is irrelevent.

I just wish that more would
treat it as such instead of wandering off in the haze of
their clouded imaginations about their "federal
authorization" license and imagined self-importance.

I am sure you DO wish that many would treat it that way. Then all
of your rantings, musings and other mispent efforts herein would be
justified.

Sorry for you "they" don't, eh?



Putz.

Steve, K4YZ