"John Smith" wrote in message
...
N2EY:

I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general
to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one...

John


As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging
my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General.
Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are
not ready to go this route just yet.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote:

Dee Flint wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:

wrote in message
legroups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:

In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear
that they expect any Tech
not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs)
to take the General exam and
upgrade to get HF privileges.

Interesting - in many ways!

For one thing, there would still be two kinds of
Technicians - those with HF and those without.

Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point
that licensees
are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want
more
privileges, they show that development by upgrading.

The problem is that such an implementation of the concept
contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons!

But it does completely satisfy those who kept hammering on no
automatic upgrades and then some as I got the impression that most would
not have minded Techs being consolidated with Tech Plus at the Tech Plus
privileges even though otherwise against automatic upgrades.


Perhaps.

Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go
for General or Extra.

But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that
tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with
Technician) earlier?


The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech- with-HF
is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not.
The latter
has some HF privileges and the former has none.

The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and
proposes
to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it
follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?!

The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for
long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long
term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only,
and require at least a General for HF.

It is hard to say what the FCC was thinking. However perhaps
they too are
looking at the statistics and interpret it as no need for the
introductory
license to have HF privileges. Afterall the Novice are
declining at a fast
enough pace that it looks like almost none are active and that almost all
are failing to renew. They can easily go into the data as they have it and
see how many Tech Pluses actually upgraded, let themselves
lapse, or simply
renewed. The last indicating a low activity level and/or
interest level since they have not upgraded.


The number of upgrades isn't easily obtained from the database, though.


Also, they may be thinking that this keeps the minimum number
to tests to
get onto HF at least at two. The Novices had to take two and
Techs after
April 2000 had to take two to get on HF. Prior to that, Techs had to take 3
tests to get on HF (Novice written, Tech written, and code).


True enough!

And when you consider that the old, pre-restructuring 20 wpm *Extra*
was earned by at least one third-grader at the age of 8,
it's a bit hard to accept that the written tests are "too hard".

(OTOH, the same can be said about the code tests...)

They also discussed the concept that they do not want Techs to stay at the
Tech level. They consider upgrading as a significant element
in individuals
fulfilling the basis and purpose of ham radio (i.e. self
training, etc).
Allowing the Technicians some HF privileges reduces the
motivation to
upgrade. And the FCC repeately referred to the Techs being
able to get on
HF by taking the simple written test to upgrade to General.


It gets more and more interesting. Sounds like a rebirth of
Incentive Licensing.

THey better call it something else! ;^)

Think about it: FCC saying that it's *not OK* to stay a Tech!?!
That upgrading is part of being a good ham and supporting the
Basis and Purpose...

Works for me!

rest snipped

- Mike KB3EIA -

From: Michael Coslo on Aug 2, 6:57 am

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
Dee Flint wrote:


In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear
that they expect any Tech
not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs)
to take the General exam and
upgrade to get HF privileges.

Interesting - in many ways!

For one thing, there would still be two kinds of
Technicians - those with HF and those without.

Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point
that licensees
are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want
more privileges, they show that development by upgrading.

The problem is that such an implementation of the concept
contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons!

But it does completely satisfy those who kept hammering on no
automatic upgrades and then some as I got the impression that most would
not have minded Techs being consolidated with Tech Plus at the Tech Plus
privileges even though otherwise against automatic upgrades.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go
for General or Extra.

But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that
tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with
Technician) earlier?

Oh, my, all that SPECULATION and the "bearing down heavily!"

WT Docket 05-235 is about ONE thing and ONE thing only: Delete
or retain the morse code test. The FCC expects deletion but
will not order that until all Comments are done and has reached
a conclusion on the basis of those Comments.

NOTHING in that docket was about "restructuring" anything but
test element 1 statements.

Whatever else anyone in this group has said/pronounced/babbled
about is PURE SUBJECTIVE SPECTULATION.

Tsk, where are all the "insiders" who used to say "exactly
what the FCC was thinking?!?" [ as if... ]



And when you consider that the old, pre-restructuring 20 wpm *Extra*
was earned by at least one third-grader at the age of 8,
it's a bit hard to accept that the written tests are "too hard".

(OTOH, the same can be said about the code tests...)

Tsk, the FCC doesn't recognize AGE. :-)

WT Docket 05-235 is NOT about license classes, "restructuring"
acts befores or afters, or WRITTEN TESTS. It is concerned
with Test Element 1 deletion or retention.

Tsk, tsk, you people just have NO focus...


It gets more and more interesting. Sounds like a rebirth of
Incentive Licensing.

Sounds more like you PCTAs have way too much time on your
hands when you cannot understand what 05-235 is about...

THey better call it something else! ;^)

WT Docket 05-235 is good enough for the FCC. Why isn't it
good enough for you PCTAs?

Think about it: FCC saying that it's *not OK* to stay a Tech!?!

Only one little problem: The FCC did NOT say that in
WT Docket 05-235.


rest snipped

Just as well. You PCTAs just can't focus on THE important
part of U.S. amateur radio regulations for entering amateur
radio...the morse code test.

bla bla

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
N2EY:

I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general
to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one...

John


As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging
my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General.
Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are
not ready to go this route just yet.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

That is a good idea Dee. With the massive desertion of V/UHF for HF, it
will be a vast wasteland. Yes indeed, standby for the giant sucking
sound.

All us present users of HF will have to make room, we will have phone all
the way down to 14.010. The FCC will be deluged with demands, yes demands
for more spectrum. Even 11 meters will be turned back into a ham band.

After all that is what all the anti-code is all about, right?



Dan/W4NTI

Len:

My gawd, get out the antacid, laxatives, etc and pass them out freely!!!!

This belly-aching is going to go on forever, fact is CW looks almost certain to
fall. And, the CB'ers are on the march to get their "KeenWoods" and "davemade"
products now, in anticipation...

.... amateur radio is about to take on a new personality.

Truckers with extra licenses, house wife's as generals, kiddie techs, the
possibilities are endless...

John

wrote in message
ps.com...
From: Michael Coslo on Aug 2, 6:57 am

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
Dee Flint wrote:


In the discussion in the NPRM, they make it clear
that they expect any Tech
not having HF privileges (i.e. codeless Techs)
to take the General exam and
upgrade to get HF privileges.

Interesting - in many ways!

For one thing, there would still be two kinds of
Technicians - those with HF and those without.

Yes there will be. The NPRM bore down heavily on the point
that licensees
are expected to continue to develop and learn and thus if they want
more privileges, they show that development by upgrading.

The problem is that such an implementation of the concept
contradicts the FCC's own arguments and reasons!

But it does completely satisfy those who kept hammering on no
automatic upgrades and then some as I got the impression that most would
not have minded Techs being consolidated with Tech Plus at the Tech Plus
privileges even though otherwise against automatic upgrades.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go
for General or Extra.

But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that
tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with
Technician) earlier?

Oh, my, all that SPECULATION and the "bearing down heavily!"

WT Docket 05-235 is about ONE thing and ONE thing only: Delete
or retain the morse code test. The FCC expects deletion but
will not order that until all Comments are done and has reached
a conclusion on the basis of those Comments.

NOTHING in that docket was about "restructuring" anything but
test element 1 statements.

Whatever else anyone in this group has said/pronounced/babbled
about is PURE SUBJECTIVE SPECTULATION.

Tsk, where are all the "insiders" who used to say "exactly
what the FCC was thinking?!?" [ as if... ]



And when you consider that the old, pre-restructuring 20 wpm *Extra*
was earned by at least one third-grader at the age of 8,
it's a bit hard to accept that the written tests are "too hard".

(OTOH, the same can be said about the code tests...)

Tsk, the FCC doesn't recognize AGE. :-)

WT Docket 05-235 is NOT about license classes, "restructuring"
acts befores or afters, or WRITTEN TESTS. It is concerned
with Test Element 1 deletion or retention.

Tsk, tsk, you people just have NO focus...


It gets more and more interesting. Sounds like a rebirth of
Incentive Licensing.

Sounds more like you PCTAs have way too much time on your
hands when you cannot understand what 05-235 is about...

THey better call it something else! ;^)

WT Docket 05-235 is good enough for the FCC. Why isn't it
good enough for you PCTAs?

Think about it: FCC saying that it's *not OK* to stay a Tech!?!

Only one little problem: The FCC did NOT say that in
WT Docket 05-235.


rest snipped

Just as well. You PCTAs just can't focus on THE important
part of U.S. amateur radio regulations for entering amateur
radio...the morse code test.

bla bla

Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
groups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
legroups.com...
Dee Flint wrote:
Or perhaps FCC thinks that anybody who really wants HF should just go
for General or Extra.

But what would be the rationale of giving the priveliges of a class that
tehy chose to remove (not test for, and eventually merge with
Technician) earlier?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Mike.

05-235 isn't just an NPRM, and it isn't just about Element 1. It's
actually FCC's response to the 18 petitions, and denies most of
what was requested, with explanations of FCC's reasoning.

For example, FCC states that they see a 3-license-class system
as the correct number of license classes to work towards. They
specifically deny four-class and two-class suggestions (sorry, Hans -
FCC obviously read your ideas and disagreed).

Yet at the same time FCC doesn't want free upgrades, giveaways, more
complexity in the license structure, nor anybody to lose privileges.

FCC also doesn't see any need for a new entry level license, nor
changes
in the subband structure, nor big changes in the written test methods.

All this is spelled out in detail in 05-235. It's not speculation nor
interpretation.

One by one, almost all the proposed changes are denied by FCC. All that
is left up for grabs is the one remaining code test, which FCC proposes
to eliminate.

As I've said before, I'm surprised it took FCC this long. When FCC
wrote in the R&O for 98-143 that the only reason Element 1 was being
retained was the treaty, the future was pretty clear.

The only testing difference between a Tech and Tech Plus/Tech- with-HF
is that the latter passed Element 1 and the former did not.
The latter
has some HF privileges and the former has none.

The FCC says that Element 1 is no longer necessary, and
proposes
to remove it completely. If someone accepts that reasoning, it
follows that all Techs should have the same privileges - but that's not what FCC proposes?!

The only explanation I can think of is that FCC is looking for
long-range simplification. Perhaps what FCC wants in the long
term is for all entry-level licensees to be on VHF/UHF only,
and require at least a General for HF.

It is hard to say what the FCC was thinking. However perhaps
they too are
looking at the statistics and interpret it as no need for the
introductory
license to have HF privileges. Afterall the Novice are
declining at a fast
enough pace that it looks like almost none are active and that almost all
are failing to renew. They can easily go into the data as they have it and
see how many Tech Pluses actually upgraded, let themselves
lapse, or simply
renewed. The last indicating a low activity level and/or
interest level since they have not upgraded.


The number of upgrades isn't easily obtained from the database, though.


Also, they may be thinking that this keeps the minimum number
to tests to
get onto HF at least at two. The Novices had to take two and
Techs after
April 2000 had to take two to get on HF. Prior to that, Techs had to take 3
tests to get on HF (Novice written, Tech written, and code).


True enough!

And when you consider that the old, pre-restructuring 20 wpm *Extra*
was earned by at least one third-grader at the age of 8,
it's a bit hard to accept that the written tests are "too hard".

(OTOH, the same can be said about the code tests...)

They also discussed the concept that they do not want Techs to stay at the
Tech level. They consider upgrading as a significant element
in individuals
fulfilling the basis and purpose of ham radio (i.e. self
training, etc).
Allowing the Technicians some HF privileges reduces the
motivation to
upgrade. And the FCC repeately referred to the Techs being
able to get on
HF by taking the simple written test to upgrade to General.


It gets more and more interesting. Sounds like a rebirth of
Incentive Licensing.

THey better call it something else! ;^)

Why? FCC specifically uses the term "incentives" and says the primary
incentive is spectrum space. They say such incentives will not be
removed. In the discussion where FCC denies automatic upgrades and
expansion of privileges for various license classes, FCC says such
things are disincentives to upgrading.

In fact if you read the document carefully, there's a bit of a tone
that says 'how easy do you want us to make it? We're saying we'll
dump the code test. If you want the privs, take the tests!'

Think about it: FCC saying that it's *not OK* to stay a Tech!?!
That upgrading is part of being a good ham and supporting the
Basis and Purpose...

Works for me!

Yup.

It's clear where FCC wants things to go. Start out the beginners on
VHF/UHF,
offering HF/MF as the big incentive to get a General. Those who want
those
little pieces of HF and a fancy callsign can go for Extra.

They're also clearly saying that anybody with an existing license will
be
able to upgrade by just taking a written test, so what's the problem?
Are the
tests really so hard, and VE sessions so difficult to access?

Eventually the closed-off license classes will disappear from the
database, and
the rules governing them will be removed.

--

Another idea:

Suppose Element 1 is eliminated, but the number of US hams continues to
decline.
What will be the fix then?


73 de Jim, N2EY

313

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
N2EY:

I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go general
to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one...

John


As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be encouraging
my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the General.
Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they are
not ready to go this route just yet.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

That is a good idea Dee. With the massive desertion of V/UHF for HF, it
will be a vast wasteland. Yes indeed, standby for the giant sucking
sound.

All us present users of HF will have to make room, we will have phone all
the way down to 14.010. The FCC will be deluged with demands, yes demands
for more spectrum.

Maybe not, Dan.

The license is just the first step. Then comes building a station,
putting up
an effective antenna, getting on the air, learning the characteristics
of the
various bands, etc.

How many folks are actually going to do all that? Particularly during
sunspot minimum?

Even 11 meters will be turned back into a ham band.

A lot of folks are going to be surprised that all of HF isn't like 11
m.

After all that is what all the anti-code is all about, right?

We'll see.

---

One report I read is that in Germany, where the code test was dumped
some time back, there has been an *increased interest* in Morse Code
operation! Apparently a sizable number of newcomers want to use Morse
Code, test or no test, simply because it's different, takes skill, etc.

73 de Jim, N2EY

313

wrote


How many folks are actually going to do all that?


Hundreds of thousands of us have done it to date.

73, de Hans, K0HB

wrote in message
ups.com...

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
N2EY:

I think at this time, the tech ticket can be dropped, let 'em go
general
to start or forget it!!! Just combine tech&gen tests to one...

John


As I've mentioned before, in my classes in the future, I'll be
encouraging
my students to do that extra bit of study and go straight for the
General.
Apparently some of the proposals to the FCC did suggest this but they
are
not ready to go this route just yet.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

That is a good idea Dee. With the massive desertion of V/UHF for HF,
it
will be a vast wasteland. Yes indeed, standby for the giant sucking
sound.

All us present users of HF will have to make room, we will have phone
all
the way down to 14.010. The FCC will be deluged with demands, yes
demands
for more spectrum.

Maybe not, Dan.

The license is just the first step. Then comes building a station,
putting up
an effective antenna, getting on the air, learning the characteristics
of the
various bands, etc.

How many folks are actually going to do all that? Particularly during
sunspot minimum?


Yeah I think we won't see any major changes. There will be a noticeable
blip in upgrades but that's about it. Actually the fact that it is being
implemented at the time of a sunspot minimum means we are at risk of losing
hams as they upgrade, find the HF bands difficult and then drop out. We'll
really need to do some exra Elmering to help the new people and keep them in
the hobby.

Even 11 meters will be turned back into a ham band.

A lot of folks are going to be surprised that all of HF isn't like 11
m.

After all that is what all the anti-code is all about, right?

We'll see.

---

One report I read is that in Germany, where the code test was dumped
some time back, there has been an *increased interest* in Morse Code
operation! Apparently a sizable number of newcomers want to use Morse
Code, test or no test, simply because it's different, takes skill, etc.

73 de Jim, N2EY

313

I hope so. Again perhaps the fact that the change in the code requirements
comes as we approach a solar minimum will affect how people view the code.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

K=D8HB wrote:
wrote

How many folks are actually going to do all that?

Hundreds of thousands of us have done it to date.

Hundreds of millions haven't, too.

73 de Jim, N2EY

btw, Hans, you were one of only two regular rrap posters whose comments
were quoted by FCC in 05-235. FCC agreed with some of what you wrote
but not most of it.

73 de Jim, N2EY

313