John Smith wrote:
One reason, the newer digital phone probably puts out 1/10 of the power of the
analog. Increase the power of the digital and the problem will most likely
disappear...

indeed comapring apples to apples was on the biggest flaws in the piece

Power level are different, and the simple factdigital cell phones are
newer therefore the infrasturcture is less developed


John

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...
QUOTE FROM YAHOO! NEWS

FORT PIERRE, S.D. - Johnny Smith has a new digital cell phone, but he
relies on an older analog bag phone when he travels the wide open
spaces in the western part of the state to line up cattle for sale at a
local livestock auction.

In rural areas where cellular towers are far apart, analog phones often
work when digital models can't get a signal. With the Federal
Communications Commission pushing the move to all-digital phone service
across the country, Smith and others in rural areas are urging the
agency to wait until more towers are built to improve service.

"I carry a bag phone just because I can get so much better reception
with it," Smith said. "If you're out in the middle of no place, it's
nice to be able to call somebody."

END QUOTE

(Let's see how long it takes Lennie & Co to make this a "code
test" or "Mighty Morsemen" thread....)

Steve, K4YZ

an_old_friend wrote:


John Smith wrote:

One reason, the newer digital phone probably puts out 1/10 of the power of the
analog. Increase the power of the digital and the problem will most likely
disappear...


indeed comapring apples to apples was on the biggest flaws in the piece

Power level are different, and the simple factdigital cell phones are
newer therefore the infrasturcture is less developed


Of course, we probably don't want the new digital phones to be running
at the power levels the old bag phones run. Especially for the lenght of
time that people hold the things to their head nowadays.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael:

Then let none complain of reduced areas of coverage... you simply cannot have
it both ways...

John

"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...
an_old_friend wrote:


John Smith wrote:

One reason, the newer digital phone probably puts out 1/10 of the power of
the
analog. Increase the power of the digital and the problem will most likely
disappear...


indeed comapring apples to apples was on the biggest flaws in the piece

Power level are different, and the simple factdigital cell phones are
newer therefore the infrasturcture is less developed


Of course, we probably don't want the new digital phones to be running at the
power levels the old bag phones run. Especially for the lenght of time that
people hold the things to their head nowadays.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Michael Coslo wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:


John Smith wrote:

One reason, the newer digital phone probably puts out 1/10 of the power of the
analog. Increase the power of the digital and the problem will most likely
disappear...


indeed comapring apples to apples was on the biggest flaws in the piece

Power level are different, and the simple factdigital cell phones are
newer therefore the infrasturcture is less developed


Of course, we probably don't want the new digital phones to be running
at the power levels the old bag phones run. Especially for the lenght of
time that people hold the things to their head nowadays.

why not sounds like it be would evoltuion in action, but I would like
havinga digtial bag phone or a cordless remote to car mounted phone of
the higher powere we had with the bag phones

- Mike KB3EIA -

"K4YZ" wrote


(Let's see how long it takes Lennie & Co to make this a "code
test" or "Mighty Morsemen" thread....)


QRO rules! QRP is for sissies.

dit dit
de Hans, K0HB

K4YZ:

Heck, now I'm a noin' ya'll ain't meanin' me! (maybe a relation though)

Hell, I'd just fire up the old chicken band rig on channel 19 and BS with a
trucker!

John

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...
QUOTE FROM YAHOO! NEWS

FORT PIERRE, S.D. - Johnny Smith has a new digital cell phone, but he
relies on an older analog bag phone when he travels the wide open
spaces in the western part of the state to line up cattle for sale at a
local livestock auction.

In rural areas where cellular towers are far apart, analog phones often
work when digital models can't get a signal. With the Federal
Communications Commission pushing the move to all-digital phone service
across the country, Smith and others in rural areas are urging the
agency to wait until more towers are built to improve service.

"I carry a bag phone just because I can get so much better reception
with it," Smith said. "If you're out in the middle of no place, it's
nice to be able to call somebody."

END QUOTE

(Let's see how long it takes Lennie & Co to make this a "code
test" or "Mighty Morsemen" thread....)

Steve, K4YZ

From: Michael Coslo on Thurs 28 Jul 2005 09:52

K4YZ wrote:

QUOTE FROM YAHOO! NEWS

In rural areas where cellular towers are far apart, analog phones often
work when digital models can't get a signal. With the Federal
Communications Commission pushing the move to all-digital phone service
across the country, Smith and others in rural areas are urging the
agency to wait until more towers are built to improve service.

I would be remiss if I didn't note that I do agree with you that
digital is not better.

You've had experience with a lot of digital voice, have you?

I can show you were MOST folks in here have had experience
with digital voice. Bet you won't know where, though...


While it performs well under many circumstances,
it has it's own set of shortcomings.

Such as?

The U.S. military doesn't think so. [but, what do they know,
right?] The WLAN users and installers don't think so. [but,
what do they know, right?] The commercial and government
radio users don't think so. [but, what do they know, right?]
How about the telephone people...do they think so? [but, what
do they know, right?]

Certainly digital voice is of no particular advantage in Amateur Radio,
from what I have seen so far.

What have you "seen so far?" Do your ears see? Or is all your
"experience" with digital voice that of others' writings in
here?

'Fess up, Mikey. You HAVE used digital voice and aren't aware
you are using it when you do. shrug

There's not even a STANDARD for digital voice on amateur radio
bands yet. There's no way it can be directly compatible with
old-time analog voice...it will need both encoders and decoders
as peripherals with purely-analog radios...or it will need a
radio that has such things built-in. Building-in digital voice
(and data or whatever) will incur a development charge which has
to be recouped by amortizing that over a specific time in the
manufactured equipment sales prices.

That you can't envision such a thing is of no surprise to me.
Few radio amateurs are either flexible enough or experienced
enough with new modes and methods, therefore are extreme
conservatives when it comes to new developments...if QST
hasn't run an article on it, then "it doesn't exist" and
"can't be done!" :-)

doo dah

Len:

Don't tell them that digital voice is really a "stream" of numbers which
describe your voice/words/tone/etc really, and the other phone (computer
really) decodes the instructions and recreates a "clone" of the original analog
signal which you will hear.

Also, skip the part about these numbers being encased in packets with a CRC
(cyclic redundancy code, read about it on the net, simple to the point of being
boring--think "error checking" here) and if there is a "error worth noting" the
packet is discarded and a copy of it resent (if it can't be done within a
reasonable length of time--microseconds, a defective packet is "played" hoping
you can "decode" the error with your ear), so that digital audio can be about
as close to perfect as can be obtained (indeed, it can be perfect, if that is
what you want--or not at all!) Also, the phones have loads of memory (the good
ones) so that packets can be stored and ordered and time spent holding one
packet while a previous is being "error corrected."

Well, in a nutshell description, that is... but just don't mention all that,
too confusing for "Neanderthal hams", and the few others here probably already
know...

John
wrote in message
oups.com...
From: Michael Coslo on Thurs 28 Jul 2005 09:52

K4YZ wrote:

QUOTE FROM YAHOO! NEWS

In rural areas where cellular towers are far apart, analog phones often
work when digital models can't get a signal. With the Federal
Communications Commission pushing the move to all-digital phone service
across the country, Smith and others in rural areas are urging the
agency to wait until more towers are built to improve service.

I would be remiss if I didn't note that I do agree with you that
digital is not better.

You've had experience with a lot of digital voice, have you?

I can show you were MOST folks in here have had experience
with digital voice. Bet you won't know where, though...


While it performs well under many circumstances,
it has it's own set of shortcomings.

Such as?

The U.S. military doesn't think so. [but, what do they know,
right?] The WLAN users and installers don't think so. [but,
what do they know, right?] The commercial and government
radio users don't think so. [but, what do they know, right?]
How about the telephone people...do they think so? [but, what
do they know, right?]

Certainly digital voice is of no particular advantage in Amateur Radio,
from what I have seen so far.

What have you "seen so far?" Do your ears see? Or is all your
"experience" with digital voice that of others' writings in
here?

'Fess up, Mikey. You HAVE used digital voice and aren't aware
you are using it when you do. shrug

There's not even a STANDARD for digital voice on amateur radio
bands yet. There's no way it can be directly compatible with
old-time analog voice...it will need both encoders and decoders
as peripherals with purely-analog radios...or it will need a
radio that has such things built-in. Building-in digital voice
(and data or whatever) will incur a development charge which has
to be recouped by amortizing that over a specific time in the
manufactured equipment sales prices.

That you can't envision such a thing is of no surprise to me.
Few radio amateurs are either flexible enough or experienced
enough with new modes and methods, therefore are extreme
conservatives when it comes to new developments...if QST
hasn't run an article on it, then "it doesn't exist" and
"can't be done!" :-)

doo dah

From: John Smith on Jul 28, 8:48 pm


Don't tell them that digital voice is really a "stream" of numbers which
describe your voice/words/tone/etc really, and the other phone (computer
really) decodes the instructions and recreates a "clone" of the original analog
signal which you will hear.

TOO LATE!!! I did that a few years ago. Morsemen would have NONE
of that..."morse code gets through when nothing else will"...blah,
blah, blah, blah, blech.

Tsk, these mighty "experimenters" and "state of the art" advancers
don't realize that CDs of music and DVDs of motion pictures are
(horrors) DIGITALLY RECORDED!!!

They don't realize that POTS (Plain Old Telephone System) is
digitized between exchanges...and sometimes inside the same
exchange. Even morsemen's heavy breathing is digitized.


Also, skip the part about these numbers being encased in packets with a CRC
(cyclic redundancy code, read about it on the net, simple to the point of being
boring--think "error checking" here) and if there is a "error worth noting" the
packet is discarded and a copy of it resent (if it can't be done within a
reasonable length of time--microseconds, a defective packet is "played" hoping
you can "decode" the error with your ear), so that digital audio can be about
as close to perfect as can be obtained (indeed, it can be perfect, if that is
what you want--or not at all!) Also, the phones have loads of memory (the good
ones) so that packets can be stored and ordered and time spent holding one
packet while a previous is being "error corrected."

Irrelevant to here. Morsemen, mighty and macho as they wannabe,
have told us that "CELL PHONES ARE *USELESS* IN ANY EMERGENCY!"
That's that. No goodnik. The telephone system GOES DOWN in any
emergency situation, can't be used at all!


Well, in a nutshell description, that is... but just don't mention all that,
too confusing for "Neanderthal hams", and the few others here probably already
know...

Sorry, John, implying that SOME in here are IGNORANT brings on
accusations of "hating ham radio!!!"

Can't have that! All have to LOVE ham radio as the ARRL taught
everbody sometime...(hic)

Too bad there's no "surplus" SINCGARS radios...the largest field
radio production for U.S. land forces ever...a quarter million
produced since the first went operational in 1989.* Digital
voice with (now) built-in communications security or COMSEC
with on-line encryption/decryption. NATO allies have the same
system, compatible with U.S. SINCGARS radios.

* Some CASES of older SINCGARS have turned up on EBay, but none
with intact electronic guts. Those must have been from the
"SIP" (SINCGARS Improvement Program) by ITT Fort Wayne, IN.

Heck, not a one in here is familiar with Peterson and Weldon's
"Error-Correcting Codes" (MIT Press, nice red hardcover). THE
reference for digital coding with/without error correction.

I'd rather reference Brian Burke's statement:

"Morse code gets through when everything else will."

dit dot

wrote:
From: John Smith on Jul 28, 8:48 pm


Don't tell them that digital voice is really a "stream" of numbers which
describe your voice/words/tone/etc really, and the other phone (computer
really) decodes the instructions and recreates a "clone" of the original analog
signal which you will hear.

TOO LATE!!! I did that a few years ago...(SNIP)

Now you did it, John...Gave Lennie an opportunity to say "I Told
You So"!

Now he'll be on that "Say In 1000 What Anyone Else Can Say In 20"
mode for a month.

Irrelevant to here. Morsemen, mighty and macho as they wannabe,
have told us that "CELL PHONES ARE *USELESS* IN ANY EMERGENCY!"
That's that. No goodnik. The telephone system GOES DOWN in any
emergency situation, can't be used at all!

Whelp...Not true again, but you like to perpetuate the story.

Too bad there's no "surplus" SINCGARS radios...(SNIP)

Oh no...SINCGARS again...

Lennie belittles Amateurs for "saving the radio world", yet at
every opportunity we're lambasted with yet another round of how a
MILITARY systems is the "know all-end all" of radio communication....

I'd rather reference Brian Burke's statement:

"Morse code gets through when everything else will."

Cute from two guys who are incompetent in Morse telegraphy...

Steve, K4YZ