an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:
robert casey wrote:
wrote:

Recently there have been some claims about "what the
majority wants" in regards to FCC NPRMs.

THe FCC doesn't make rules based on how polling comes out.


I was speaking about comments, not polls. But you're right
either way, in that the FCC can ignore the majority
if it wants to.

The FCC is legaly bound to ignore the majority in what it sees as the
public interest

"...legaly (legally) bound to ignore..."

I don't think so.

One very
good comment can trump many "me toos".

Or one comment that FCC just happens to agree with.

Look at the BPL situation....

Besides, the FCC isn't
in the business of handing out gold stars. If a requirement
serves no regulatory purpose, the FCC doesn't want to bother
with it.

Or if FCC doesn't want to be bothered in the first place...

Indeed the FCC doesn't want to be bothered with much from the ARS, we
should count ourselves lucky to get any enforcement action

Us or anyone else. However the FCC has demonstrated significant
enforcement actions over All services in recent years. Refer to the
FCC's NOV/NOUO archives.

However, none of that is really what I was driving at.

My point is simply that the majority of comments on code testing
(57%) on 98-143 were in favor of at least two code test speeds,
including at least 12 wpm for Advanced and Extra. That fact is
proved by KC8EPO's published results, right here on rrap back
in March of 1999. (WA6VSE/WK3C posted them).

so?

FCC ignored the majority opinion back then and reduced code
testing to 5 wpm. The majority opinion was *not* acted upon
by FCC.

and No one ever promised or sugessted it would be

Sure it was.

It was called the Constitution of the Untied States.

That concept has been lost in the caucophony of
least-common-denominatior bar-lowerings.

the FCC has a DUTY to the PUBLIC interest first and only then to the
interests of the ARS and finaly to the WISHES of the ARS

"The "wishes" you refer to are by citizens of the United States
who told the government what they wanted.

The government ignored them.

Whether FCC did the best thing or not is a matter of opinion.
But the plain simple fact is that the majority was *not*
anti-code-test.

so

So the wishes of the citizens were ignored.

The Consitution was violated.

Now of course if the majority of comments on 05-235 are in
favor of no more code testing, FCC will most certainly say
they are simply doing what the majority wants.

Not likely

Absolutely. Watch.

The FCC will simply issue it's report and order

And in that R&O they will say "...the majority of respondents..."

Steve, K4YZ

wrote:
From: b.b. on Aug 7, 7:02 am

wrote:

Recently there have been some claims about "what the majority wants" in
regards to FCC NPRMs.

Here's what happened wrt 98-143, the last big restructuring NPRM, and
commenters' views on code testing.

The ARRL's "substantive" poll has come and gone.

WRT98-143 has come and gone.

Best of Luck making your journey to the present.

Jimmie is still stuck in the PAST.

He is so tense he loses his tenses...it should be "what the
majority WANTED"...in the past tense.

As to "what happened [with regard to] NPRM 98-143," that is
all viewable on the FCC ECFS under that Docket number. In
short, there are 2,367 entries there up to and including the
FCC-official cut-off date of 15 January 1995. There are a
total of 2,671 entries under 98-143, some of which are
marked as received as late as 2005! That's indicative of
lots of folks stuck in some kind of Time Warp.

Report and Order 99-412, released in late December of 1999,
made NPRM 98-143 a thing of the past. Once an R&O is
issued, its Notice of Proposed Rule Making is NO LONGER a
notice but an ORDER.

NPRM 98-143 covered MANY different aspects of U.S. amateur
radio regulations BESIDES the morse code test. For an
excellent statistical summation on the ENTIRETY of the
Comments submitted, LeRoy Klose (KC8EPO) did an excellent
job in no less than 4 Exhibits to the FCC plus a Reply to
Comments (15 pages) which is a text tabulation of the
various Commenters, dated 25 and 26 January 1999. In those
it is quite evident that the no-code-test advocates were
the MAJORITY and NOT the minority as Miccolis alleges and
has alleged in past postings here.

FCC 99-412 was released, became LAW for U.S. radio amateurs
and that is that whether morsemen like it or not.

WT Docket 05-235 is about ONE specific change to U.S.
amateur radio regulations: Elimination of Test Element
1 concerning the morse code test required now for a new
(or "upgrade" to) General or Extra class U.S. amateur radio
license. That PAST commentary, ARRL polls, or pipe-dreaming
by morsemen are taken as "present day opinions" is invalid
for the PRESENT.

Jimmie and other rabid morsemen are in deep denial of the
growing desire of those interested in amateur radio to DO
AWAY with the morse code test. That growth has burgeoned
into a MAJORITY, not a minority any longer.

A problem with those in deep denial is that they simply
cannot recognize a public desire which is opposed to their
own self-centered personal desires on retaining some
mythical standards and practices of past times when they
"bought into" those old standards and practices. As a
result we have all that spin doctoring by the morsemen
doing a failing job of keeping archaic standards and
practices alive. They are guilty only of necro-equine
flagellation...i.e., "beating a dead horse."

bet not


Jim is like an archivist that plays a role before each government
project collecting pop can pull-off rings, shards of glass, and
campfire coals.

He never affects the outcome of a project, but his presence is a
necessary nuisance.

K4YZ wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:
robert casey wrote:
wrote:

Recently there have been some claims about "what the
majority wants" in regards to FCC NPRMs.

THe FCC doesn't make rules based on how polling comes out.


I was speaking about comments, not polls. But you're right
either way, in that the FCC can ignore the majority
if it wants to.

The FCC is legaly bound to ignore the majority in what it sees as the
public interest

cuting speling cop

I don't think so.

of course you don't

that is one of the problems you don't bother learning what the turth is

One very
good comment can trump many "me toos".

Or one comment that FCC just happens to agree with.

Look at the BPL situation....

Besides, the FCC isn't
in the business of handing out gold stars. If a requirement
serves no regulatory purpose, the FCC doesn't want to bother
with it.

Or if FCC doesn't want to be bothered in the first place...

Indeed the FCC doesn't want to be bothered with much from the ARS, we
should count ourselves lucky to get any enforcement action

Us or anyone else. However the FCC has demonstrated significant
enforcement actions over All services in recent years. Refer to the
FCC's NOV/NOUO archives.

your point?


However, none of that is really what I was driving at.

My point is simply that the majority of comments on code testing
(57%) on 98-143 were in favor of at least two code test speeds,
including at least 12 wpm for Advanced and Extra. That fact is
proved by KC8EPO's published results, right here on rrap back
in March of 1999. (WA6VSE/WK3C posted them).

so?

FCC ignored the majority opinion back then and reduced code
testing to 5 wpm. The majority opinion was *not* acted upon
by FCC.

and No one ever promised or sugessted it would be

break
Sure it was.

BUZZZ wrong answer


It was called the Constitution of the Untied States.

nope an other Stevie lie

That important document say nothing of the sort

It says nothing about govening rules by direct public referendum

Indeed it says nothing giving the FCC any power at all, except the
socalled supremacy clasue declaering itself and any TREATIES we sign
the supreme law of the land, that and the neccasary and proper clause
are all that allow the FCC exist to exist as a legal body, neither says
anything about governing the reags by referendum


That concept has been lost in the caucophony of
least-common-denominatior bar-lowerings.

not at all

what has been lost by you is the notion that Radio rules and regs are
there to serve the PUBLIC interest not you narrow cliquish whims


the FCC has a DUTY to the PUBLIC interest first and only then to the
interests of the ARS and finaly to the WISHES of the ARS

"The "wishes" you refer to are by citizens of the United States
who told the government what they wanted.

and they come last by law, and very properly, nor of course are all of
them citizens


The government ignored them.

another Stevie Lie, the Govt heard them, and found other things more
pressing

Whether FCC did the best thing or not is a matter of opinion.
But the plain simple fact is that the majority was *not*
anti-code-test.

so

So the wishes of the citizens were ignored.

happen all the time


The Consitution was violated.

nope


Now of course if the majority of comments on 05-235 are in
favor of no more code testing, FCC will most certainly say
they are simply doing what the majority wants.

Not likely

Absolutely. Watch.

the FCC is very unlikely to do so because it would esteablish for the
first time an expectation that it was bound to follow the will f the
majority of the folks that comented


The FCC will simply issue it's report and order

And in that R&O they will say "...the majority of respondents..."

It might note that fact but that is unlikely to attribute that any
weight and if it does one the lawyers that reviews it before release
should be fired


Steve, K4YZ

Bill Sohl wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

robert casey wrote:

A. Because the Administrative Procedures Act required it and

B. To see how many ya-yas and yuck-yucks come out of the woodwork.

Relieves the tensions of 8 hours "in the box" sandwiched between two
hours of car-pool on either end.. Maybe that's why I never went to
HQ.

I can just imagine the bureaucrat at the FCC who gets stuck
wading thru all the filed comments searching for the one
that might actually point out something of substance that was
overlooked and would matter. I made my comment short and
to the point: "I agree, do it, drop the code test". So
whoever at the FCC doesn't have to waste much time on
my comment.

I thought you had to point out how the other respondants are misguided, or
whatever..... ;^)
- Mike KB3EIA -


You always have the chance to point out those misquided
comments during the 15 day reply comments period. :-) :-)

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK


I looked at a large sample of the comments filed and they are an
embarassment to the Amateur Radio Service. It appears that a simple
literacy test is a more urgent need than a 5 wpm code test. A first
course in English grammar and basic writing wouldn't hurt either.
I prefer not to comment on the logic (or lack thereof) displayed in all
too many of the comments. However I did note quite a number of comments
whose authors were clearly unaware of the last 15 years worth of
regulatory changes or had no idea of what modes were allowed where.
John

John wrote:


I looked at a large sample of the comments filed and they are an
embarassment to the Amateur Radio Service. It appears that a simple
literacy test is a more urgent need than a 5 wpm code test. A first
course in English grammar and basic writing wouldn't hurt either.
I prefer not to comment on the logic (or lack thereof) displayed in all
too many of the comments. However I did note quite a number of comments
whose authors were clearly unaware of the last 15 years worth of
regulatory changes or had no idea of what modes were allowed where.
John

John, Extra Bruce/WA8ULX is somehow simultaneously a brilliant test
taker and a functional illiterate. The comments posted here earlier
look like a page out of his playbook. I'm sure he's not alone in his
Extraness and stupidity, and willingness to sabotage the U.S. amateur
radio service. $0.02. bb

On 9 Aug 2005 20:35:08 -0700, "b.b." wrote:


John, Extra Bruce/WA8ULX is somehow simultaneously a brilliant test
taker and a functional illiterate. The comments posted here earlier
look like a page out of his playbook. I'm sure he's not alone in his
Extraness and stupidity, and willingness to sabotage the U.S. amateur
radio service. $0.02. bb

At my company, there was a maintenance supervisor who was as stubborn
and illiterate as Bruce. You either did things his way, or he would
write you up for insubordination. Often times, his way would involve
unsafe acts that violated safety practices and OSHA regulations. For
whatever reason, he didn't think such rules applied to the people
working under him. (Fortunately, he was put in his place for this
before someone got hurt, and started abiding by safety procedures.)

The best part about this guy was the shift reports that he'd write.
These were e-mailed to an intranet list server, and many people,
including company executives, received them. The reports were full of
spelling errors, terrible grammar, and looked like they were written
by a second grader. Yet, no one cared or did anything about this
because the man had been with the company for so long. It was more of
a joke than anything else.

Even though the shift reports were internal, I had often wondered what
would have happened if a customer would have seen some of these
reports. Would they still shrug it off easily if they knew such an
ignoramus was costing them money? Would they think it was such a big
joke when they started losing orders? It's the same with Bruce. Do the
newcomers to amateur radio see Bruce's rants, and think, "If this is
what amateur radio has among its ranks, I want no part of it." Most of
us ignore Bruce, or see him as a joke. However, his incomprehensible
ramblings and insults against "CB Plussers" brand him as a hypocrite
and a disgrace far beyond the people he derides, and that certainly is
no joke.

Uncle Ted:

Your point is well taken, and I do believe a variety of "tools" have been
used to discourage new membership, and in subversive ways. Strange it has
worked so well for so long. But in the end, when the pathetic end of all
this is examined, it is hard not to see what has been occurring.

John

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:53:31 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote:

On 9 Aug 2005 20:35:08 -0700, "b.b." wrote:


John, Extra Bruce/WA8ULX is somehow simultaneously a brilliant test
taker and a functional illiterate. The comments posted here earlier
look like a page out of his playbook. I'm sure he's not alone in his
Extraness and stupidity, and willingness to sabotage the U.S. amateur
radio service. $0.02. bb

At my company, there was a maintenance supervisor who was as stubborn
and illiterate as Bruce. You either did things his way, or he would
write you up for insubordination. Often times, his way would involve
unsafe acts that violated safety practices and OSHA regulations. For
whatever reason, he didn't think such rules applied to the people
working under him. (Fortunately, he was put in his place for this
before someone got hurt, and started abiding by safety procedures.)

The best part about this guy was the shift reports that he'd write.
These were e-mailed to an intranet list server, and many people,
including company executives, received them. The reports were full of
spelling errors, terrible grammar, and looked like they were written
by a second grader. Yet, no one cared or did anything about this
because the man had been with the company for so long. It was more of
a joke than anything else.

Even though the shift reports were internal, I had often wondered what
would have happened if a customer would have seen some of these
reports. Would they still shrug it off easily if they knew such an
ignoramus was costing them money? Would they think it was such a big
joke when they started losing orders? It's the same with Bruce. Do the
newcomers to amateur radio see Bruce's rants, and think, "If this is
what amateur radio has among its ranks, I want no part of it." Most of
us ignore Bruce, or see him as a joke. However, his incomprehensible
ramblings and insults against "CB Plussers" brand him as a hypocrite
and a disgrace far beyond the people he derides, and that certainly is
no joke.

K4YZ wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
wrote:
robert casey wrote:
wrote:

Recently there have been some claims about "what the
majority wants" in regards to FCC NPRMs.

THe FCC doesn't make rules based on how polling comes out.

I was speaking about comments, not polls. But you're right
either way, in that the FCC can ignore the majority
if it wants to.

The FCC is legaly bound to ignore the majority in what it sees as the
public interest

"...legaly (legally) bound to ignore..."

I don't think so.

In this case, the truth is in the middle. FCC is not required to follow
majority opinion, but neither are they supposed to ignore it.

The main point is that the majority opinion on 98-143 wanted more code
testing than 5 wpm. But that opinion was ignored by FCC. The majoriy
wanted 5 wpm for General but *not* for all code-tested licenses.

KC8EPO's analysis proves it.

One very
good comment can trump many "me toos".

Or one comment that FCC just happens to agree with.

Look at the BPL situation....

Besides, the FCC isn't
in the business of handing out gold stars. If a requirement
serves no regulatory purpose, the FCC doesn't want to bother
with it.

Or if FCC doesn't want to be bothered in the first place...

Indeed the FCC doesn't want to be bothered with much from the ARS, we
should count ourselves lucky to get any enforcement action

Us or anyone else. However the FCC has demonstrated significant
enforcement actions over All services in recent years. Refer to the
FCC's NOV/NOUO archives.

Sure.

However, none of that is really what I was driving at.

My point is simply that the majority of comments on code testing
(57%) on 98-143 were in favor of at least two code test speeds,
including at least 12 wpm for Advanced and Extra. That fact is
proved by KC8EPO's published results, right here on rrap back
in March of 1999. (WA6VSE/WK3C posted them).

so?

FCC ignored the majority opinion back then and reduced code
testing to 5 wpm. The majority opinion was *not* acted upon
by FCC.

and No one ever promised or sugessted it would be

Sure it was.

It was called the Constitution of the Untied States.

That's not what the Constitution promises.

What the Constitution does is to set the structure of our govt. and
limit its power. What that means in specific cases is what keeps the
Supremes busy.

Note that the Constitution is particularly concerned with protecting
the rights of the individual and the minority against those of the mob
and the majority. That's why we have trial-by-jury instead of
trial-by-public-opinion-poll.

And it takes a 2/3 vote to amend the constitution, not just a majority.
The Equal Rights Amendment (ERA - remember that?) failed to be enacted
because of the lack of a 2/3 majority, even after a time extension.

That concept has been lost in the caucophony of
least-common-denominatior bar-lowerings.

It's called checks and balances. The wishes of the majority are
balanced against the rights of the individual.

the FCC has a DUTY to the PUBLIC interest first and only then to the
interests of the ARS and finaly to the WISHES of the ARS

"The "wishes" you refer to are by citizens of the United States
who told the government what they wanted.

The government ignored them.

Yep, they did.

Actually, the only time the govt. is required to submit to the will of
the majority of the people is in certain elections and referenda. (In a
presidential election, the candidate with the majority of votes can
still lose - it's already happened).

Whether FCC did the best thing or not is a matter of opinion.
But the plain simple fact is that the majority was *not*
anti-code-test.

so

So the wishes of the citizens were ignored.

Yup.

The Consitution was violated.

Nope. There's no requirement for FCC to do what the majority of
commenters want.

Now of course if the majority of comments on 05-235 are in
favor of no more code testing, FCC will most certainly say
they are simply doing what the majority wants.

Not likely

Absolutely. Watch.

Of course!

The FCC will simply issue it's report and order

And in that R&O they will say "...the majority of respondents..."

Because FCC has to include verbiage justifying its actions.

73 de Jim, N2EY

b.b. wrote:
John wrote:



I looked at a large sample of the comments filed and they are an
embarassment to the Amateur Radio Service. It appears that a simple
literacy test is a more urgent need than a 5 wpm code test. A first
course in English grammar and basic writing wouldn't hurt either.
I prefer not to comment on the logic (or lack thereof) displayed in all
too many of the comments. However I did note quite a number of comments
whose authors were clearly unaware of the last 15 years worth of
regulatory changes or had no idea of what modes were allowed where.
John


John, Extra Bruce/WA8ULX is somehow simultaneously a brilliant test
taker and a functional illiterate. The comments posted here earlier
look like a page out of his playbook. I'm sure he's not alone in his
Extraness and stupidity, and willingness to sabotage the U.S. amateur
radio service. $0.02. bb

I was very careful NOT to say to which side of the argument I was referring
to since it clearly refers to both. So the first reply immediately attacks
a poster from one side - I guess it is no more than I expected.

Whether or not you agree with the comments I filed, I hope you agree
that at least they are in English.
73
John K4BNC

"K4YZ" wrote


So the wishes of the citizens were ignored.

The Consitution(sic) was violated.


OK folks, you read it right here!

FCC Docket 98-143 is unconstitutional!

The FCC proceeding has been struck down by the County Court of Franklin County
Tennessee, the Honorable Judge Steven J Robeson presiding. Hope the VEC's
didn't throw away their 13 and 20WPM testing materials.

Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
de Hans, K0HB