Dan:

What is "good for amateur radio" has to be "what is good for the people",
and NOT "what is good for my klick." Which is what you are really
stating, it is just a bunch of "good ole cb buddies", but thinking of
themselves in some glorified manner! Disgusting really... and yes, I
remember a time when it was NOT this way, you had a few anti-social
weirdos who were loners and thought themselves special because of a hobby
license, but that seems to have become catching and has almost infected
the whole lot, the sane ones are rather few and far between these days...

"Amateur Worship is a Mental Disorder", is going to be the title of a book
I am working on! grin

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:48:24 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
Even today....well actually for
many years....the 80 meter band is a classic example of wasted
space.
Mostly dead air in the "CW" allocations. In particular from
3.5 to 3.6.

I think you meant "3.6 to 3.7"

No I didn't....I don't consider 5 CW stations in 100 KC
over use of a
segement. Or should I say "Use of a segement".
Nets are there for sure,
but not for long. Then the band is dead again.

Lots of open space from 3.6 to 3.750 if you want to be open
minded on this
subject.

All of 80 meters is open to digital modes. You know, the
modes all those new, young, modern hams are going to use
when Element 1 goes away.

If there's so much room, then what's the problem making
3500 to 3575 Morse Code only?

Because we don't use it now. 25 on the bottom of all bands is
plenty IF it is CW exclusive to ALL classes.

Is 80 meters full of digital signals? Or is it equally underused
by those modes as well?


80/75 is a seasonal band, as is 160. Summertime activity of any kind is
quite low. With the exception of SSB. It is always full up. At least in 4
land anyway.

Digital is indeed increasing, but so far are staying above 3575. On
occassion I am QRMed from them on the Alabama net, 3575. But they move
when they hear activity...to their credit.

40 is another case and it is gonna be real tough to put that
mess straight..
hi.

Not really. The mess is due to the rest of the world wanting
7100-7300 for SWBC. That's going away, even as we speak, and
more and more of the rest of the world is letting their hams
have 7100-7200. Eventually 7000-7300 will be worldwide
exclusive amateur.

So what's the problem with 7000-7050 being Morse Code only?

See above

The band is 300 kHz wide. 50 kHz is 16%. There are plenty of
times - noncontest times - when 40 is one Morse Code signal
after another from 7000 to 7050. And that's with cascaded
8 pole 500 Hz filters in the rx.


40 meters is a butchered band. And yes I know that changes are FINALLY on
the way. Perhaps when it is a exclusive Amateur allocation (at least for
Region 1 and 2) things will improve. But for now it is a complete mess.

It is indeed a active band, for all modes. In reality it needs expanded to
7.5 or so. But that will never happen.

20/15/10 could all use some "CW Trimming" today.

Let's cut to the chase. It's about more room for 'phone and
less for Morse Code and digital modes. Some folks talk big
about "new directions" and "modernization" and "fresh ideas",
but what they really mean is more bandspace for SSB.

Is that what is best? More room for SSB and AM, less for
CW and digital modes?


I don't know what is "best". I would just like to see a clean spot for CW
only. That is a personal choice, nothing more. Whether I get it is
another story.

I still like my suggestion......bottom 25 of ALL HF bands....CW
ONLY. No
digital, etc. That way those that want can.

Those that don't.....won't.

The trouble is that it will take an Extra to get down there.

No it won't. Drop the Extra only and be done with that Dinosaur.

FCC won't go for that. Read the NPRM - they specifically state that
they think 3 license classes is the right number, and that we'll
get to three classes by attrition. They specifically denied
auto-upgrades, new entry level licenses, etc.


Then only extra's do CW. I have no solution for that. If the FCC don't
want it, it won't happen.

They also said that more frequencies was the best incentive.


The FCC has NO IDEA what is good for Ham radio. Nor do they give a RIP.


Dan/W4NTI

From: John Smith on Aug 22, 3:22 pm

Dan:

What is "good for amateur radio" has to be "what is good for the people",
and NOT "what is good for my klick."

No, John, it IS for their clique...except they can't see anything
but their clique as being "amateur radio."

Which is what you are really
stating, it is just a bunch of "good ole cb buddies", but thinking of
themselves in some glorified manner!

To Dan the ARS stands for Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Kind of a low-grade "one-world, one-government" kind of thing,
all molded around THEIR concept of how the hobby "is."

Dannie can't accept anything else but HIS beliefs. For other,
different ideas he gets hostile, volatile, tries to batter
the different to the floor tile.

Disgusting really... and yes, I
remember a time when it was NOT this way, you had a few anti-social
weirdos who were loners and thought themselves special because of a hobby
license, but that seems to have become catching and has almost infected
the whole lot, the sane ones are rather few and far between these days...

We differ, John. I can easily remember a mere two decades ago
on visiting the Lockheed ARC...when Lockheed was having a lot of
difficulties with the state and the city of Burbank. In general
a bunch of disheartening, don't-tell-me-nothing-because-we-rule
group of "extras" whose major dissatisfaction was really that
they were in imminent danger of being on LAY OFF.

Lockheed California eventually moved out entire from the Burbank
area (a division is still at AF Plant 42 in Palmdale) and ALL
the old Lockheed buildings have been razed, hardly any rubble is
left. The fabled Skunk Works in Building 82 was one of the first
to be torn down. The Lockheed ARC is but a shell of its former
self and the laid-off Lockheed workers (who didn't want to go to
Georgia) are off muttering in their isolated little corners.

The huge Lockheed production complex along Empire Avenue just
disappeared and, like a Phoenix from the ashes, the fabulous
new Empire Center of many, many stores and services, two office
buildings and two hotels grew on the place where all the famous
Lockheed aircraft were built. All that remains of Lockheed is
the silhouettes of the Vega, the Constellation, the P-38, and
the SR-71 on the parking lot section signs. Rebirth.

I was reminded of this from yesterday when my wife and I were at
a store in the Empire Center. At the large entrance we saw an old
geezer regaling a couple of younger women about his work at
Lockheed ("over there where building 15 was" "we built
airplanes!"). The young women were polite, smiled, but clearly
didn't find any interest or amusement at this. Eventually the
old geezer wound down and all left. In one way that's the way
it will be with U.S. amateur radio. Rebirth. The new replacing
the old. The old will become a memory, one not treasured so
emotionally as by the old-timers. The future will be different,
brighter, full of new things. New leaders will form and lead.
New-timers will enjoy the new environment. Oldsters will grouse
and bitch, complaining mightily about it not being as good as
"the old days." Of course not. "The old days" were only a
figment of imagination after all, a nostalgia of never-was, an
emotion of discovery only to individuals then new to radio.

"Amateur Worship is a Mental Disorder", is going to be the title of a book
I am working on! grin

There ARE those of that disorder. They exist. They have
transported
themselves to their own imaginary fairyland, a lifestyle of
imagining
they are "masters of radio"...but "masters" only of an imaginary
world of the 30s and 40s long gone...when Kode was King and all was
simple and orderly, fixed in place.

I look forward to a FUTURE, not a past. I was in the past and
all wasn't as good as it is now. The future looks like a better
place, something to enjoy, to have fun in, free of the ties to
old standards and practices that are out of place now.

out old

Len:

Your text was interesting...

I kind feel guilty though, that book I am working on, ""Amateur Worship is
a Mental Disorder"--I stole the idea from Michael Savage, a radio talk
show host, and his book "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder."

Please don't tell anyone, I am counting on only you and I knowing...

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:00:12 -0700, LenAnderson wrote:

From: John Smith on Aug 22, 3:22 pm

Dan:

What is "good for amateur radio" has to be "what is good for the people",
and NOT "what is good for my klick."

No, John, it IS for their clique...except they can't see anything
but their clique as being "amateur radio."

Which is what you are really
stating, it is just a bunch of "good ole cb buddies", but thinking of
themselves in some glorified manner!

To Dan the ARS stands for Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Kind of a low-grade "one-world, one-government" kind of thing,
all molded around THEIR concept of how the hobby "is."

Dannie can't accept anything else but HIS beliefs. For other,
different ideas he gets hostile, volatile, tries to batter
the different to the floor tile.

Disgusting really... and yes, I
remember a time when it was NOT this way, you had a few anti-social
weirdos who were loners and thought themselves special because of a hobby
license, but that seems to have become catching and has almost infected
the whole lot, the sane ones are rather few and far between these days...

We differ, John. I can easily remember a mere two decades ago
on visiting the Lockheed ARC...when Lockheed was having a lot of
difficulties with the state and the city of Burbank. In general
a bunch of disheartening, don't-tell-me-nothing-because-we-rule
group of "extras" whose major dissatisfaction was really that
they were in imminent danger of being on LAY OFF.

Lockheed California eventually moved out entire from the Burbank
area (a division is still at AF Plant 42 in Palmdale) and ALL
the old Lockheed buildings have been razed, hardly any rubble is
left. The fabled Skunk Works in Building 82 was one of the first
to be torn down. The Lockheed ARC is but a shell of its former
self and the laid-off Lockheed workers (who didn't want to go to
Georgia) are off muttering in their isolated little corners.

The huge Lockheed production complex along Empire Avenue just
disappeared and, like a Phoenix from the ashes, the fabulous
new Empire Center of many, many stores and services, two office
buildings and two hotels grew on the place where all the famous
Lockheed aircraft were built. All that remains of Lockheed is
the silhouettes of the Vega, the Constellation, the P-38, and
the SR-71 on the parking lot section signs. Rebirth.

I was reminded of this from yesterday when my wife and I were at
a store in the Empire Center. At the large entrance we saw an old
geezer regaling a couple of younger women about his work at
Lockheed ("over there where building 15 was" "we built
airplanes!"). The young women were polite, smiled, but clearly
didn't find any interest or amusement at this. Eventually the
old geezer wound down and all left. In one way that's the way
it will be with U.S. amateur radio. Rebirth. The new replacing
the old. The old will become a memory, one not treasured so
emotionally as by the old-timers. The future will be different,
brighter, full of new things. New leaders will form and lead.
New-timers will enjoy the new environment. Oldsters will grouse
and bitch, complaining mightily about it not being as good as
"the old days." Of course not. "The old days" were only a
figment of imagination after all, a nostalgia of never-was, an
emotion of discovery only to individuals then new to radio.

"Amateur Worship is a Mental Disorder", is going to be the title of a book
I am working on! grin

There ARE those of that disorder. They exist. They have
transported
themselves to their own imaginary fairyland, a lifestyle of
imagining
they are "masters of radio"...but "masters" only of an imaginary
world of the 30s and 40s long gone...when Kode was King and all was
simple and orderly, fixed in place.

I look forward to a FUTURE, not a past. I was in the past and
all wasn't as good as it is now. The future looks like a better
place, something to enjoy, to have fun in, free of the ties to
old standards and practices that are out of place now.

out old

wrote:
From: John Smith on Aug 22, 3:22 pm


Dan:

What is "good for amateur radio" has to be "what is good for the people",
and NOT "what is good for my klick."


No, John, it IS for their clique...except they can't see anything
but their clique as being "amateur radio."

You have a point, Len. There is an amateur radio clique. Those who are
radio amateurs are a part of it. You aren't.


Which is what you are really
stating, it is just a bunch of "good ole cb buddies", but thinking of
themselves in some glorified manner!


To Dan the ARS stands for Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Is there proof of your statement?

Kind of a low-grade "one-world, one-government" kind of thing,
all molded around THEIR concept of how the hobby "is."

Dannie can't accept anything else but HIS beliefs. For other,
different ideas he gets hostile, volatile, tries to batter
the different to the floor tile.

That description would certainly apply to you, Leonard. There are
plenty of others here who have a view of amateur radio which is entirely
at odds with yours. The big difference is that they *are* radio
amateurs. Your view is that of a total outsider. For years you have
attempted battering the different to the floor tile. Go figure.


Disgusting really... and yes, I
remember a time when it was NOT this way, you had a few anti-social
weirdos who were loners and thought themselves special because of a hobby
license, but that seems to have become catching and has almost infected
the whole lot, the sane ones are rather few and far between these days...


We differ, John. I can easily remember a mere two decades ago
on visiting the Lockheed ARC...when Lockheed was having a lot of
difficulties with the state and the city of Burbank. In general
a bunch of disheartening, don't-tell-me-nothing-because-we-rule
group of "extras" whose major dissatisfaction was really that
they were in imminent danger of being on LAY OFF.

snip of a dreadfully lengthy treatise on the Extra Class hams at
Lockheed being responsible for the demise of the company

All that remains of Lockheed is
the silhouettes of the Vega, the Constellation, the P-38, and
the SR-71 on the parking lot section signs. Rebirth.

I was reminded of this from yesterday when my wife and I were at
a store in the Empire Center. At the large entrance we saw an old
geezer regaling a couple of younger women about his work at
Lockheed ("over there where building 15 was" "we built
airplanes!").

A fellow about your age, Len? In another place, the tale could have
been something about your having worked 24/7 at ADA in Japan a
half-century ago.

The young women were polite, smiled, but clearly
didn't find any interest or amusement at this.

Perhaps now you understand the reaction to the continual retelling of
your ADA tale.

Eventually the
old geezer wound down and all left. In one way that's the way
it will be with U.S. amateur radio. Rebirth. The new replacing
the old.

Amateur radio? It sounds like you're working on a story about life itself.

The old will become a memory, one not treasured so
emotionally as by the old-timers. The future will be different,
brighter, full of new things. New leaders will form and lead.
New-timers will enjoy the new environment. Oldsters will grouse
and bitch, complaining mightily about it not being as good as
"the old days." Of course not. "The old days" were only a
figment of imagination after all, a nostalgia of never-was, an
emotion of discovery only to individuals then new to radio.


"Amateur Worship is a Mental Disorder", is going to be the title of a book
I am working on! grin


There ARE those of that disorder. They exist. They have
transported
themselves to their own imaginary fairyland, a lifestyle of
imagining
they are "masters of radio"...but "masters" only of an imaginary
world of the 30s and 40s long gone...when Kode was King and all was
simple and orderly, fixed in place.

Some live in a very different fairyland, one where the unlicensed in
amateur radio can make believe that they are a part of the game. They
could, for example, haunt an amateur radio newsgroup for nearly a decade
and attempt impressing *mere radio amateurs* with tales of their
exploits in commercial radio or in the military of decades and decades back.

I look forward to a FUTURE, not a past.

Well, OT, the odds are that it will be a fairly short one. Best hustle
or be forever something less than a footnote in amateur radio.

I was in the past and
all wasn't as good as it is now.

Some things were better then. Some things are better now.

The future looks like a better
place, something to enjoy, to have fun in, free of the ties to
old standards and practices that are out of place now.

I beat you to it. I thought of that forty years back. It was sometimes
a better place. I enjoyed some things but there were problems and there
were things which I didn't enjoy. Some new standards and practices were
introduced. Some of them worked out well. Others were scrapped and we
saw people doing the things the old way, because those ways are better.
It doesn't really matter now. It is all in the past.

out old


I love the words over your sig. You're out and you're old.

By the way, didn't "John" say that you're dead but animated?

Dave K8MN

Len:

You might have said, I missed it if that is the case, when/if CW is dead,
are you going to grab your extra ticket?

If so, ya wanna meet down on 3.840 and give art a run for his money--in a
gentlemanly way of course. Don't go with disruptive actions myself...
debate and argument yes, trouble no... suspect you might be the same...
could be fun, ya never know... grin

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:00:12 -0700, LenAnderson wrote:

From: John Smith on Aug 22, 3:22 pm

Dan:

What is "good for amateur radio" has to be "what is good for the people",
and NOT "what is good for my klick."

No, John, it IS for their clique...except they can't see anything
but their clique as being "amateur radio."

Which is what you are really
stating, it is just a bunch of "good ole cb buddies", but thinking of
themselves in some glorified manner!

To Dan the ARS stands for Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Kind of a low-grade "one-world, one-government" kind of thing,
all molded around THEIR concept of how the hobby "is."

Dannie can't accept anything else but HIS beliefs. For other,
different ideas he gets hostile, volatile, tries to batter
the different to the floor tile.

Disgusting really... and yes, I
remember a time when it was NOT this way, you had a few anti-social
weirdos who were loners and thought themselves special because of a hobby
license, but that seems to have become catching and has almost infected
the whole lot, the sane ones are rather few and far between these days...

We differ, John. I can easily remember a mere two decades ago
on visiting the Lockheed ARC...when Lockheed was having a lot of
difficulties with the state and the city of Burbank. In general
a bunch of disheartening, don't-tell-me-nothing-because-we-rule
group of "extras" whose major dissatisfaction was really that
they were in imminent danger of being on LAY OFF.

Lockheed California eventually moved out entire from the Burbank
area (a division is still at AF Plant 42 in Palmdale) and ALL
the old Lockheed buildings have been razed, hardly any rubble is
left. The fabled Skunk Works in Building 82 was one of the first
to be torn down. The Lockheed ARC is but a shell of its former
self and the laid-off Lockheed workers (who didn't want to go to
Georgia) are off muttering in their isolated little corners.

The huge Lockheed production complex along Empire Avenue just
disappeared and, like a Phoenix from the ashes, the fabulous
new Empire Center of many, many stores and services, two office
buildings and two hotels grew on the place where all the famous
Lockheed aircraft were built. All that remains of Lockheed is
the silhouettes of the Vega, the Constellation, the P-38, and
the SR-71 on the parking lot section signs. Rebirth.

I was reminded of this from yesterday when my wife and I were at
a store in the Empire Center. At the large entrance we saw an old
geezer regaling a couple of younger women about his work at
Lockheed ("over there where building 15 was" "we built
airplanes!"). The young women were polite, smiled, but clearly
didn't find any interest or amusement at this. Eventually the
old geezer wound down and all left. In one way that's the way
it will be with U.S. amateur radio. Rebirth. The new replacing
the old. The old will become a memory, one not treasured so
emotionally as by the old-timers. The future will be different,
brighter, full of new things. New leaders will form and lead.
New-timers will enjoy the new environment. Oldsters will grouse
and bitch, complaining mightily about it not being as good as
"the old days." Of course not. "The old days" were only a
figment of imagination after all, a nostalgia of never-was, an
emotion of discovery only to individuals then new to radio.

"Amateur Worship is a Mental Disorder", is going to be the title of a book
I am working on! grin

There ARE those of that disorder. They exist. They have
transported
themselves to their own imaginary fairyland, a lifestyle of
imagining
they are "masters of radio"...but "masters" only of an imaginary
world of the 30s and 40s long gone...when Kode was King and all was
simple and orderly, fixed in place.

I look forward to a FUTURE, not a past. I was in the past and
all wasn't as good as it is now. The future looks like a better
place, something to enjoy, to have fun in, free of the ties to
old standards and practices that are out of place now.

out old

Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
From: John Smith on Aug 22, 3:22 pm


Dan:

What is "good for amateur radio" has to be "what is good for the people",
and NOT "what is good for my klick."


No, John, it IS for their clique...except they can't see anything
but their clique as being "amateur radio."

You have a point, Len. There is an amateur radio clique. Those who are
radio amateurs are a part of it. You aren't.

More lies on your part

You and I are not part of the same clique



Which is what you are really
stating, it is just a bunch of "good ole cb buddies", but thinking of
themselves in some glorified manner!


To Dan the ARS stands for Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Is there proof of your statement?

yes

your support of morse code welfare

cut

AOF:

"Morse Code Welfare", I think you hit upon it man, they consider the bands
a "RF Social Entitlement!"

We are making progress in their psychiatric diagnosis!

John


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:04:02 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
From: John Smith on Aug 22, 3:22 pm


Dan:

What is "good for amateur radio" has to be "what is good for the people",
and NOT "what is good for my klick."


No, John, it IS for their clique...except they can't see anything
but their clique as being "amateur radio."

You have a point, Len. There is an amateur radio clique. Those who are
radio amateurs are a part of it. You aren't.

More lies on your part

You and I are not part of the same clique



Which is what you are really
stating, it is just a bunch of "good ole cb buddies", but thinking of
themselves in some glorified manner!


To Dan the ARS stands for Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society.

Is there proof of your statement?

yes

your support of morse code welfare

cut

John Smith wrote:
AOF:

"Morse Code Welfare", I think you hit upon it man, they consider the bands
a "RF Social Entitlement!"

We are making progress in their psychiatric diagnosis!

John

not really that was rendered at 7 years ago


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:04:02 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:

All of 80 meters is open to digital modes. You know, the
modes all those new, young, modern hams are going to use
when Element 1 goes away.

If there's so much room, then what's the problem making
3500 to 3575 Morse Code only?

Because we don't use it now. 25 on the bottom of all bands is
plenty IF it is CW exclusive to ALL classes.

Is 80 meters full of digital signals? Or is it equally underused
by those modes as well?

80/75 is a seasonal band, as is 160. Summertime activity of any kind is
quite low. With the exception of SSB. It is always full up. At least in 4
land anyway.

Here in 3 land the activity is both diurnal and seasonal. During the
day 80/75 is very quiet - in part because of propagation, in part
because of people not
being near a rig, and in part because other bands are "more open".
Winter is more active than summer, sunspot minimum more active than
sunspot maximum.

Digital is indeed increasing, but so far are staying above 3575. On
occassion I am QRMed from them on the Alabama net, 3575. But they move
when they hear activity...to their credit.

But in general there isn't much digital going on either.

Some years back, a small PSK31 rig called the "Warbler" made the
3579.545 colorburst frequency popular among PSK31 folks. Although the
Warbler only covered about 2 kHz of the band there, folks with other
rigs flocked around.

Is 3575 to 3675 full of digital signals? I don't think so!

There's another effect going on, too:

Good 80 meter antennas are pretty big to folks used to VHF and 10 meter
type stuff. The popular G5RV is a compromise antenna on 80, at best.
The band doesn't really come into its own until after dark. Etc.

How many folks on rrap have an 80 meter setup? As in "at least a G5RV
that works on 80, 35 feet up at least") There's W4NTI, N2EY, K8MN,
K0HB, and probably W3RV.

Out of how many?

40 is another case and it is gonna be real tough to put that
mess straight..
hi.

Not really. The mess is due to the rest of the world wanting
7100-7300 for SWBC. That's going away, even as we speak, and
more and more of the rest of the world is letting their hams
have 7100-7200. Eventually 7000-7300 will be worldwide
exclusive amateur.

So what's the problem with 7000-7050 being Morse Code only?

See above

The band is 300 kHz wide. 50 kHz is 16%. There are plenty of
times - noncontest times - when 40 is one Morse Code signal
after another from 7000 to 7050. And that's with cascaded
8 pole 500 Hz filters in the rx.

40 meters is a butchered band. And yes I know that changes are FINALLY on
the way.

Not just on the way - they're here, and growing every day as SWBC folks
move out and more countries allow their hams to use 7100-7200. Soon
there will be no good reason for SSB below 7100 at all.

Perhaps when it is a exclusive Amateur allocation (at least for
Region 1 and 2) things will improve. But for now it is a complete mess.

The rules take so long to change that the time to ask is now. Look to
the future, when 7000-7200 or even 7000-7300 will be worldwide
exclusive amateur.

It is indeed a active band, for all modes. In reality it needs expanded to
7.5 or so. But that will never happen.

It won't happen if we say "never". Look how long the band stopped at
7100 outside Region 2. But the rules *did* change.

20/15/10 could all use some "CW Trimming" today.

Let's cut to the chase. It's about more room for 'phone and
less for Morse Code and digital modes. Some folks talk big
about "new directions" and "modernization" and "fresh ideas",
but what they really mean is more bandspace for SSB.

Is that what is best? More room for SSB and AM, less for
CW and digital modes?

I don't know what is "best". I would just like to see a clean spot for CW
only. That is a personal choice, nothing more. Whether I get it is
another story.

I think what is best for amateur radio is for the bottom 15% or so of
each HF/MF ham band to be Morse Code only. If that is done, and at
least some of it is open to all license classes, hams who are
interested in Morse Code can and
will flock there. The problems of incompatible modes will be greatly
reduced.

I still like my suggestion......bottom 25 of ALL HF bands....CW
ONLY. No
digital, etc. That way those that want can.

Those that don't.....won't.

The trouble is that it will take an Extra to get down there.

No it won't. Drop the Extra only and be done with that Dinosaur.

FCC won't go for that. Read the NPRM - they specifically state that
they think 3 license classes is the right number, and that we'll
get to three classes by attrition. They specifically denied
auto-upgrades, new entry level licenses, etc.

Then only extra's do CW. I have no solution for that. If the FCC don't
want it, it won't happen.

The trick is to offer the FCC something that doesn't contradict the way
they
think. Telling them to dump the Extra is a nonstarter because they're
convinced
it's a good thing. The idea of devoting 15% of each band to be Morse
Code only hasn't been presented to them. They might go for it as a way
to eliminate QRM
complaints. "Here's a Morse-Code-only preserve, folks the only QRM
you'll have is from each other!".

Other modes have similar protection. Look at the 'phone subbands - data
modes are not allowed there! Morse Code ops avoid the 'phone subbands -
when't the last time you heard real Morse Code operation in a 'phone
subband?

All you hear in the 'phone subbands are SSB, a bit of AM, some SSTV,
and maybe some digital voice and narrow FM. Some might even say those
rules are 'welfare' for analog voice modes.

If those modes can be protected from digital/data QRM, why can't a much
smaller part of each band be set up as a Morse Code preserve?

They also said that more frequencies was the best incentive.

The FCC has NO IDEA what is good for Ham radio. Nor do they give a RIP.

Doesn't matter - they make the rules. If we ask for something that goes
along with their mindset we just might get it. Asking for something
they
have already said is not on their agenda has little or no chance or
success.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
As far as "dumbing down" goes - I don't buy it - as Ed Hare, W1RFI (someone
who I think most here respect), has recounted ... the "beginner's test
(novice)" in his day had a 3-1/2 page study guide, the general study guide
was 16 pages (I had mis-remembered and stated 12-14 pages in a couple of
presentations, but that was an honest mistake and doesn't really alter the
point). Today, the "Now You're Talking" - the study guide for the
"beginner's test (tech)" is on the order of 200 pages or slightly more and
covers MANY more topics than the study guides of Ed's test-taking days ever
covered.

Except that's not the whole story. I've had this discussion with W1RFI
both
online and in person. There's a lot more to the old vs. new exams.

First off, the "3-1/2 page study guide" refers to the part of the old
ARRL License Manual that had the sample questions. These were
essay-type questions
meant to indicate subject areas that would be on the test. The old LM
was *not*
meant to be a stand-alone study guide, nor did it contain the exact
Q&A. One or two essay questions could cover an enormous amount of
ground, yet take up a small part of one page.

In addition, the prospective ham had to know the rules and regulations
(not part of those 3-1/2 pages) plus Morse Code sending and receiving.

Most of all, the old 1963 Novice was an extremely limited license. Good
for one
year, small parts of 4 bands bands, two modes and low power with
crystal control. Every US ham had a year to pass at least the General
written (same exam was used for Technician, General and Conditional) or
leave the ham bands.

The point is that things have NOT been "dumbed down" ... there is more to
study and learn than ever before - just to become a "beginner."

Yes and no.

If someone wants to really *understand* the material, there's lots to
learn. If they want to be able to practically apply it, there's even
more.

But if all they want to do is pass the test, all they need is to get
enough multiple choices right and the license is theirs. FCC doesn't
care if someone understands the material or not, or if they got a
perfect score or just enough for a passing mark. Same license is issued
either way.

This isn't meant as a put-down of newer hams - they don't control the
testing process or requirements!

I was
licensed long enough ago to have been a member of QCWA for some time, and I
am FIRMLY convinced that those who complain about "dumbing down" of the
testing are either being disingenuous, or more likely simply remember the
tests that they took many years ago as being MUCH harder than they actually
were.

Or maybe they're using a poor choice of words.

The old tests required some understanding and detailed knowledge in a
few well-defined areas. The new tests are more amenable to memorization
without much understanding, and treat a wide variety of subjects in a
very basic manner.

On top of all this is the fact that in the bad old days just getting to
an exam was a major effort for a lot of prospective hams. So we tended
to overprepare just to be sure.

Besides, the test isn't a proof that you "know all there is to know,"
nor SHOULD it be.

Of course not! At the same time, if the test is "too easy", the
newcomer has so much to learn that they can be frustrated to the point
of giving up.

I'd ask older hams with higher class licenses to think back to the mistakes
that they made when they first went on the air many years ago - and how the
more experienced hams of the time (generally) were patient, tolerant, and
helpful. Show the newcomers the way in polite, respectful, and constructive
ways, rather than slamming them and telling them they're no good!

Of course - but that's a two-way street! Being called "olde fartz",
"obsolete", "dinosaurs", "beepers", "key tappers", "elitists",
"one-by-twos who need a whack from a two-by-four" and such doesn't make
an experienced ham - *any* experienced ham - want to Elmer the name
caller.

Look at KB3EIA's experiences - see the problem? I had a similar one
here on rrap when I tried to help someone with an HF antenna problem,
then realized the person expected me to completely solve his problem
with incomplete information and a barrage of put-downs. Eventually I
realized it was a waste of my time - the person involved would not
accept any solution provided.

Of course a lot of Elmering *does* go on - via reflectors, in person,
on the air, with books, websites, etc. I've done a bit of that
myself....

73 de Jim, N2EY