Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI


Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

class warfare? Oy!

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

Sounds good, but I suspect that there would be some sort of pecking
order *regardless* of the situation. Were there only *one* class of ham,
some people would still set themselves up as the "anointed ones" by
virtue of having some top notch radio, antenna, or whatever. It is that
way in every vocation, social group, hobby, sport, or whatever. Kinda
like human nature.

In other words, Morse code could go away entirely, no test, no use,
nothing, and the situation wouldn't be much different.



- Mike KB3EIA -

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
ink.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student
is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to
feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self
esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of
newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to
offer advice in a kindly manner.

But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience
who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need
your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint
during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF.

Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any
success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that
the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way
too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or
two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he
"knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up.

There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them.

While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a
number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything.

And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set
themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world:

While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world,
there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student.
The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for
the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift.

It goes both ways.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

Yes, that is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What is the line you draw
between legitimate elmering and manipulation of the newbies in support of
ones personal wants, desired, goals, etc...

.... newbies be warned!

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:39:11 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
link.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student
is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to
feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self
esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of
newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to
offer advice in a kindly manner.

But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience
who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need
your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint
during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF.

Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any
success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that
the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way
too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or
two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he
"knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up.

There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them.

While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a
number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything.

And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set
themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world:

While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world,
there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student.
The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for
the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift.

It goes both ways.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Dan:

I can think of at least one way to make incentive licensing more
effective, perhaps up to 100% effective:

Trick those in question into consuming a very slow acting poison. Then
tell them, "Those who pass a CW exam at 13+ wpm will get the antidote, the
poison will kill you in a month if you are unsuccessful. Then, shove a
CPO in their hand and a study book, come back just short of a month and
administer the test--I expect very few would die."

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:35:21 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing was forced upon us
there was a defacto one license system for HF access.

You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges. As did the old
Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. And the Novice was just
the "stepping stone" to the General.

The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had to do
the test to keep a license. The Novice expired after 1 year and was
non-renewable.

Dan/W4NTI
"an_old_friend" wrote in message
ups.com...

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Have you realy found folsk that honestly disgree

this Discontent is why I have a strong inclanation to a One Class
license feeling that what the ARS loses in intail skill would be mad
eup for in in removing that discontent

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful,
as
of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been ineffectual,
as
of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting
to
glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras
so
worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual
practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the
unwitting...

... rumors only, mind you!

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of
licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great
CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John

John Smith wrote:
Mike:

Yes, that is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What is the line you draw
between legitimate elmering and manipulation of the newbies in support of
ones personal wants, desired, goals, etc...

... newbies be warned!

The drawn line? The inexperienced Extra who refused advice on how to
work in a QSO party probably didn't have much fun in the contest.
Staying overnight, and making 6 QSO's probably wasn't much fun.

The other guy with the happy fingers on the keyboard did eventually
calm down enough to make a few QSO's, but still blamed his problems on
the antenna.

I doubt that either of these guys will go on to have much fun in
Amateur radio. Who knows why some people are so reluctant to take a
little advice. Perhaps they are sensitive, and don't want to be thought
of as not knowing everything (like who does)

OTOH, I did indeed treat my Elmers with respect, and learned a lot. Some
of them were old, and some were cantankerous. Big deal. Treat a person
right, and they are usually happy to share their knowledge with ya. I'm
happy to learn from anyone, even those who think I am a horses patoot.

- mike KB3EIA -


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:39:11 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...


"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
hlink.net...


There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student
is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to
feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self
esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of
newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to
offer advice in a kindly manner.

But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience
who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need
your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint
during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF.

Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any
success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that
the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way
too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or
two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he
"knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up.

There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them.

While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a
number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything.

And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set
themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world:

While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world,
there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student.
The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for
the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift.

It goes both ways.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

It is all what you are after, usually my amateur interaction is not a
group effort, I take the extra time to search out real conversation, not
just signal reports, phone quality, equip. lists, etc... perhaps I
fancy myself a cowboy, I just think of it as making good use of my time...
some net work is alright, mostly there I listen a lot, heck, if they are
willing to do all the talking might as well fall asleep listening to them...

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:21:42 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:

John Smith wrote:
Mike:

Yes, that is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What is the line you draw
between legitimate elmering and manipulation of the newbies in support of
ones personal wants, desired, goals, etc...

... newbies be warned!

The drawn line? The inexperienced Extra who refused advice on how to
work in a QSO party probably didn't have much fun in the contest.
Staying overnight, and making 6 QSO's probably wasn't much fun.

The other guy with the happy fingers on the keyboard did eventually
calm down enough to make a few QSO's, but still blamed his problems on
the antenna.

I doubt that either of these guys will go on to have much fun in
Amateur radio. Who knows why some people are so reluctant to take a
little advice. Perhaps they are sensitive, and don't want to be thought
of as not knowing everything (like who does)

OTOH, I did indeed treat my Elmers with respect, and learned a lot. Some
of them were old, and some were cantankerous. Big deal. Treat a person
right, and they are usually happy to share their knowledge with ya. I'm
happy to learn from anyone, even those who think I am a horses patoot.

- mike KB3EIA -


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:39:11 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...


"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
thlink.net...


There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student
is good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to
feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self
esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of
newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to
offer advice in a kindly manner.

But I personally know of a case of an Extra who had no HF experience
who told me "If you don't mind, I'd like you to leave now, I don't need
your advice.", and then proceed to make 6 QSO's during a 6 hour stint
during a QSO contest. This guy made Extra without ever getting on HF.

Another case in which a fellow was working PSK31, and wasn't having any
success. I sat with him, and it was obvious that the problem was that
the guy had happy fingers, and was changing the modulation frequency way
too quickly. He'd call CQ, and then switch frequencies after only one or
two seconds.Couldn't hear people calling him back. Unfortunately, he
"knew" that the trouble was actually in the antenna I put up.

There are other stories, but I won't belabor you with them.

While most hams *are* accepting and eager for Elmering, there are a
number who have come into the hobby already knowing everything.

And there is some advice that I would offer to those who would set
themselves up as the shakers and movers of the Amateur radio world:

While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world,
there is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student.
The Elmer must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for
the student must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift.

It goes both ways.


- Mike KB3EIA -

John Smith wrote:


If you try something and it fails, and you try it again and it fails, and
you try it again it fails--there is something wrong with what you are
doing!


If at first you don't succeed, you're running about average.

Mike Coslo wrote:
Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

class warfare? Oy!

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

Sounds good, but I suspect that there would be some sort of pecking
order *regardless* of the situation.

It was that way back in those days too. I was there.

Some of the SSB folks thought they were better than the AM gang. Some
folks with Collins looked down on others with less-expensive rigs. Some
of those with Drake looked down on others, yet considered the Collins
folks to be snobs. Some with 1x3 calls looked down on those with 2x3
calls.

Etc. You get the drift. Key word is "some".

Were there only *one* class of ham,
some people would still set themselves up as the "anointed ones" by
virtue of having some top notch radio, antenna, or whatever. It is that
way in every vocation, social group, hobby, sport, or whatever. Kinda
like human nature.

Heck, we've got someone here in rrap who isn't even a ham, yet looks
down on practically all of us! ;-)

In other words, Morse code could go away entirely, no test, no use,
nothing, and the situation wouldn't be much different.

Of course. The lines would be drawn another way. Equipment, modes, etc.


Shall I post the Smith Chart piece again?


73 de Jim, N2EY

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
link.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need
an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is
good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel
inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem"
students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out
there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice
in a kindly manner.


I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly
mishandled. While one should never put down a person, they do need guidance
and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes. Because these
students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in the end,
I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem. They do often realize
that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out or helps
them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that they are so
lowly that they aren't worth helping. This is a bigger hit on their self
esteem than anything I can think of.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

No John,

I do not believe having an Extra Amateur Radio License should, or does make
the holder somehow superior. All it tells me is that they followed to
rules to get what privileges are available, in a legal manner. It shows
dedication and perseverance. Not superiority.

As I stated before, I believe incentive licensing is the scourge of Amateur
Radio, and is directly related to all this "in fighting" we have these days.

For what it's worth.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
Dan:

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I agree I have run into way too many extras
with an attitude they are superior in some way, they are superior at CW,
but for some reason that looks like a damn simple thing to excited about,
it won't get you a job, it isn't an indication of IQ, it won't help you
feed your family, it is not suitable training for any real world skill,
etc, etc.

And, you know, the problem really isn't the extras enjoying their "opium
dreams" and looking ridiculous to really educated men while they are doing
so, it is the damn idiots they are able to snooker that makes you lose
faith in the human race! Has a good portion of this world become "extra
worshiping fools?", what kind of mental disorder is that? How come I get
the feeling like I went to bed and the world was sane, I woke up and
everyone has gone crazy?

I mean, it is really too lunatic for intelligent men to argue--fools are
grabbing hobby licenses and pretending to be intellectuals--I can't even
begin to describe the bizarre nature of this, or how they are so
successful at fooling others... I mean it is as simple as drugs--just say
NO!

I was afraid this is what you meant by "attitude adjustment" for the
newbies, indoctrination into the "church of extra worshiping hams!" Sorry
if I was mistaken...

John


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:32:02 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

John,

My "point" is this....ever since the creation of "incentive licensing".
Forcing one to upgrade. I have found a serious degradation of attitudes
in
ham radio.

I have seen the class of license being used to determine ones "pecking
order" in the society of Amateur Radio. Thus forcing upon us a system of
"class structure". A structure of unwarranted superiority because of
ones
license class. I stated it back in 1965 when I first heard of this
stupid
idea. And I state it today.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
Dan:

At this point, all I see which has been "proved" is that in humanity
there
is a need to set ones own image as being "special", the things they use
as
as qualifications to these ends are preposterous--even resorting to
flashing a hobby license at you in pursuit of those ends...

... grab a chair and view this "circus" of performers out there, and
just
to think, they have no clue on the opinions of others viewing them in
their silly performances... indeed, even if you attempt to explain it
to
them, it just doesn't make it though that image they have constructed
for
themselves.

It is much like watching a "lotus blossom eater" and unable to fathom
what
visions must dance before their eyes obscuring the reality which lies
about them... the term "glorified CB'ers" pops to the forefront of ones
mind...

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:57:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
... rumor has just reached me that the extras have been unsuccessful,
as
of lately... rumor continues to exist they have only been
ineffectual,
as
of late, because of the vast numbers of "lower class hams" attempting
to
glue their lips to the bottoms of the extras--thus keeping the extras
so
worn out in finding a place to sit they cannot partake in the usual
practice of deception, manipulation and mind control of the
unwitting...

... rumors only, mind you!

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0700, John Smith wrote:


... read all about it!

Extras are attempting to bully all other "lower class forms of
licenses"
into submission to their wills (and of course, worship of "The Great
CW
God"...

... but then, what is news about that ...

John