wrote in message
ups.com...

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
Before 1968 when the first phase of incentive licensing
was forced upon us
there was a defacto one license system for HF access.

You had the General which gave you all Amateur privileges.
As did the old
Class A. As did the Extra. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL.
And the Novice was just
the "stepping stone" to the General.

Actually it's a bit more complicated....

From the early 1930s until 1951, there was the three-class "ABC"
system. B and C were the same except C was by mail and B was by FCC
examiner. 13 wpm and a pretty serious written test.

Class A required a Class B or C for a year, plus another written test.
Only available from an FCC examiner, and if you had a Class C you had
to do the exam for Class B all over again.

The *only* operating difference was that Class A had 'phone on HF/MF
ham bands except 160, 10 and 11 meters, and Class B and C did not.

Back then there were no 30, 17, 15 or 12 meter ham bands. And 40 meters
was all Morse Code. The Class A 'phone bands were 75 and 20.

Then in 1951, FCC changed everything. Class A became Advanced, Class B
became General and Class C became Conditional. The new Extra,
Technician and Novice licenses were created. And they announced that
after the end of 1952 there would be no more new Advanceds - you'd need
an Extra to do 'phone on the above-mentioned HF bands.

But in December 1952, just as time was running out, FCC reversed itself
completely, and gave all privileges to all US hams except Novices and
Techs.

FCC continued on that path in the following years. 40 meters got a
'phone segment, and when 15 became a ham band, it soon got a 'phone
segment too.

Some folks were very unhappy about it all. The Class A 'phone bands
became full of newbies with General and Conditional tickets. Only a few
thousand hams got Extras. The Novice was
enormously popular even though it gave extremely limited privileges.

This happy state of affairs lasted only a decade - then FCC began
making noises of disappointment about how few hams had Extras and how
much appliance operating was going on. ARRL responded with a simple
proposal: reopen the Advanced to new issues, and go back to the old
system where HF 'phone required an Advanced or Extra.

For about 5 years there were discussions that made the code-test issue
look tame. All sorts of proposals came and went - the idea of a
rabbit-warren of subbands-by-license-class came from CQ magazine, for
example.

A *lot* of folks were very unhappy because when the new rules went into
effect, they lost operating privs.

The Technician was for those that couldn't hack the 13WPM code and had
to do
the test to keep a license.

The Tech was originally meant for those not interested in HF.
It originally did not have 6 and 2 meters.

The Novice expired after 1 year and was
non-renewable.

Not only that, it was "non-retakeable". Only those who had never held
any class of ham license before could get a Novice. One year,
one shot - upgrade or go off the air.

At the end of WW2, there were about 60,000 US hams

By 1951, there were about 100,000 US hams. About 30% were Class A and
the rest B and C.

By 1965, there were over 250,000 US hams. About 18,000 were Novices,
about 40,000 were Advanced, and only about 4,000 were Extras. The rest
were mostly Generals and Conditionals, with a few thousand Techs.

The result was that the vast majority (at least 85%) of US hams had all
operating priviliges.

Despite all the changes in the intervening years, FCC says in the NPRM
that it thinks there need to be 3 license classes - Tech, General and
Extra, with frequency space as the incentive to upgrade. FCC is content
to let the Novice, Advanced and Tech Plus licenses disappear by
attrition and upgrading Technicians as Techs.

Was the old system better?

73 de Jim, N2EY


It must have been. The FCC is going back to it. Modern version of 3
license structure.

I should have been a bit more clear. I was referening to the period from
1961 on. However I do have some gaps. Especially from 64 to 68, I was
busy elsewhere.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI

I say you full of yourself John.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
AOF:

I most strongly suspect:

newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of
lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the
newbies! grin

... what say you?

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD
be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your
personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they
want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers
need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

To help you out 'old friend'....."attitude adjustment" = Leaving all the CB
bullcrap where it belongs and pay attention to what is going on with HAM
RADIO. They are NOT THE SAME.

And instead of trying to change the world of Ham Radio, learn something
from those that have been there and done it.

SEE?

Dan/W4NTI

"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

John Smith wrote:
AOF:

I most strongly suspect:

newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of
lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on
the
newbies! grin

... what say you?

In honesty I don't think Dan knows what dan means on that one

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of
the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license."
or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD
be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your
personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they
want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them
like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers
need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
I say you full of yourself John.

of course he is as you are full of yourself

Without having Met John or you I am 100% certain that the contents of
each of your boddies is 100 percent you, unless you have jiont
replacement or something like that

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
AOF:

I most strongly suspect:

newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of
lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the
newbies! grin

... what say you?

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD
be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your
personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they
want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers
need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
While it may not be palatable in this new "high self esteem" world, there
is a place for the Elmer, and there is a place for the student. The Elmer
must be willing to teach, and the most important knowledge for the student
must be knowing that he or she is getting a great gift.

It goes both ways.


- Mike KB3EIA -


Everyone out there copy and paste this to your foreheads. It is great
advice.

Dan/W4NTI

You want to give these Liberal taught kids a lesson in self respect?

Draft them into the military.

That will fix the situation in LESS than a generation.

Dan/W4NTI

"Dee Flint" wrote in message
...

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
hlink.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers
need an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is
good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to
feel inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self
esteem" students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of
newbies out there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to
offer advice in a kindly manner.


I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly
mishandled. While one should never put down a person, they do need
guidance and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes. Because
these students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in
the end, I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem. They do often
realize that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out
or helps them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that
they are so lowly that they aren't worth helping. This is a bigger hit on
their self esteem than anything I can think of.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

From: Dee Flint on Aug 23, 3:37 pm

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

:-)

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

[tsk, if that could only extend beyond...to newsgroups...:-) ]

This stuff has GOT to stop!

Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need
an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

[whoops...Dan blew it with the "attitude adjustement" remark...]

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is
good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel
inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem"
students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out
there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice
in a kindly manner.

[Carl, some folks in here will disagree with you...not in a kindly
manner...:-) ]

I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly
mishandled.

Hello? Is Dee talking about the Public School System now?

Where is amateur radio taught in public schools?

While one should never put down a person, they do need guidance
and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes.

It MUST be the public school system. Sure as "heck" that doesn't
apply in HERE. :-)

Because these
students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in the end,
I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem.

Sounds like what happened to all them olde-tyme hammes trying to
perpetuate the ARS (Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society) & morsemanship.

They do often realize
that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out or helps
them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that they are so
lowly that they aren't worth helping.

Yup, that's what all them olde-tyme hamme morsemen are doing
with all the NCTA (lowly beyond belief, not having the "proper
attitude" and worshiping these mighty masters of radio).

This is a bigger hit on their self esteem than anything I can think of.

Except in some females' cases where their remarks are, well, it
can't be said in here... :-)

OKAY, all you ESTEEMED ELMERS...GET OUT THERE and Win One for Hiram!

ADJUST THOSE ATTITUDES! STAND AT ATTENTION WHEN AN ELMER TALKS
TO YOU!

Farf...snort... :-)

elm oak

Dee:

There are naturally gifted teachers, but they are not all that common
place, the rest need some formal training, and some will never be
teachers. From personal experience, I have grown to think the very
worst--think themselves the very best--with some, no amount of real world
proof will get the point across that they need to adjust their teaching
method, for this reason, some should NOT have tenure.

What is true knowledge and what is just personal dislikes, opinions and
beliefs is a real problem to, unless you have a strong ability to keep
the two separated, science and religion, you are going to have great
difficulty with any but avg and below avg students--they know the
difference.

There are bandwidth allocations, math formulas dealing with electronic
circuits, regulations in the FCC rules, etc.--and then there is "style."
If you attempt to teach your "style", be prepared to be frustrated--some
will accept it to be nice--then go about their business, others will need
religion and are searching for purpose and acceptance and will adopt
it--and, yet again, others may think you a control freak... but you have
seen this in the real world about you and I waste both our time
reiterating such...

John


On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:37:16 -0400, Dee Flint wrote:


"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
hlink.net...

There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c



Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers need
an attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

You raise a good point, Dan. Elmering is good. Being a willing student is
good. You must have both for it to work. Many new Hams do not want to feel
inferior. I don't know if it is the first generation of "high self esteem"
students hitting adulthood or what. But there are a number of newbies out
there that bristle when offered advice. And I do know how to offer advice
in a kindly manner.


I think this "protect their self esteem at all costs" approach was badly
mishandled. While one should never put down a person, they do need guidance
and it has to be pointed out that mistakes are mistakes. Because these
students were protected from their mistakes and told it was OK, in the end,
I believe that they end up with lower self-esteem. They do often realize
that they've made a mistake but the fact that no one points it out or helps
them correct it transfroms in their minds into the concept that they are so
lowly that they aren't worth helping. This is a bigger hit on their self
esteem than anything I can think of.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dan:

Strange, that is what I was thinking about you--and put to text... you
did manage to sum it up with few words...

John

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:59:39 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

I say you full of yourself John.

Dan/W4NTI

"John Smith" wrote in message
news
AOF:

I most strongly suspect:

newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of
lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on the
newbies! grin

... what say you?

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license." or
"I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD
be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your
personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they
want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers
need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI

Dan:

The only difference between cb and amateur is megacycles and "church
doctrines." Of course, if you can BS those without a ticket and who do
not "CB", then anything you are capable of convincing them of will most
likely float--but don't BS a BS'er, it don't work...

John


On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:02:17 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

To help you out 'old friend'....."attitude adjustment" = Leaving all the CB
bullcrap where it belongs and pay attention to what is going on with HAM
RADIO. They are NOT THE SAME.

And instead of trying to change the world of Ham Radio, learn something
from those that have been there and done it.

SEE?

Dan/W4NTI

"an old friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

John Smith wrote:
AOF:

I most strongly suspect:

newcomer = "doesn't agree with dan." And, dan munches down a couple of
lotus blossoms and has visions of performing "attitude adjustments" on
the
newbies! grin

... what say you?

In honesty I don't think Dan knows what dan means on that one

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:38:59 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Dan/W4NTI wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote in message
...

"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
k.net...
There it is. Proof that "Incentive licensing" has caused hate and
discontent in Ham Radio. I've said it for years. And here it is.

Dan/W4NTI

Dan ... at last we agree!!!!!!

We *MUST* eliminate this "I'm better than you because (pick one of
the
following, or any other reason ... "I have a higher class license."
or "I
passed an xx wpm Morse test.") - class warfare.

We are ALL hams ... period. Some are more experienced. They SHOULD
be
Elmering (and Elmering doesn't mean "browbeating them into your
personal
preferences") the newbies and HELPING them to learn (whatever they
want
to) about ham radio, rather than "dising" them and treating them
like
dirt.

This stuff has GOT to stop!

73,
Carl - wk3c
http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c


Sure does......most of the newcomers are into learning. Most of the
newcomers do want to be Elmered. However......some of the newcomers
need an
attitude adjustment. Most of them are here it seems.

Bull**** Dan there are almost no newcommers here

Dan/W4NTI