Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:11:48 -0700, Cmdr Buzz corey
wrote in :


Bob wrote:

Saw this morning a brief mention on Fox News about hams doing health
and welfare emergency traffic for New Orleans. "Only reliable
communications in the area". They showed a few ham transcievers, one
displaying a 70cm band frequency, another HF rig on 20 meters in the
phone subband.

This is the sort of disaster that ham radio handles well. Cell phones
are mostly out,


No no, just can't be. There are those on this group that swear cell
phones are very reliable in emergencies. Much better than ham radio,
after all, almost everyone has a cell phone but not a ham radio. But if
the infrastructure that supports cell phones is out of operation........


as well as most any other comm system that needs
physical infrastructure to function.

Yet there are those that claim with today's technology that kind of
thing just can't happen, thus there is no need for ham radio to play a
part in emergency comms anymore.

Yet official emergency plans include plans for the use of ham radio if
necessary. Cell phones and cb aren't.



Official emergency plans don't include cardboard signs and spray paint
but they are being used anyway.



This is just the kind of thing that makes folks like lennieboy cringe
with envy. They like to downplay the role of amateur radio in
emergencies, say it is outdated, modern technology can do much better
and is more reliable, all in an attempt to cover the fact they can't be
a part of it.



Yep, all those people holding up cardboard signs and spray-painting
"HELP" on their roofs are the hams doing what they do best -- using
low-tech communications!


You can't be that stupid...Opps sorry, you just proved you are.

From: Dave Heil on Aug 31, 8:25 pm


wrote:

Doesn't matter about MODE...all good morsepersons know that
all amateur radio SURVIVES all possible emergencies, floats
on water while the hams walk on water...:-)

I recall your past statements about the commercial communications
infrastructure never totally failing in an emergency.

...and you are still mad as heil and can't take it anymore. :-)

Well, Leonard the
devastation of New Orleans reveals near total collapse of the commercial
communications infrastructure.

...and you are there, reporting for ARRL Eyewitless News?

Of course you are, and nearly totally collapsed yourself in
this mighty Herculean Effort to TELL ME OFF! :-)

Hams are there and are producing.

They've set up a factory?!? What are they making? Floating
Ten-Tecs?

The
Feds are rushing communications equipment into place but amateur radio
volunteers are already on the job:

...and so has NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, Fox News teams, duly reporting
LIVE from the scene. Ahem, millions of us viewers around the
country have seen those news broadcasts. Was amateur radio
handling their LIVE feeds from the disaster areas? Was amateur
radio manning those antenna-laden Humvees of the NG?

Lissen-up Davie-boy: PARTS of New Orleans are TOTALLY under
water. That INCLUDES ham residences and probably some ham
equipped vehicles (hard to tell when the tops are under water).
EVERYTHING went under in some of that flooding...but NOT
everywhere, obviously from the news reports on TV.

Davie-boy, I didn't say anything "against" amateur radio as a
service, or anything nasty to the CITIZEN volunteers (ham or
not) who are busy "producing" on-the-scene.

I'm tossing stuff at INDIVIDUAL "commentators" in here. If you
got somebody else's ripe tomato, TS for you. You throw them
at me all time...I'll save some extra-ripe ones for you, OK?

I have nothing but PRAISE for INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS WHO
VOLUNTEER TO HELP fellow citizens in a disaster. Been there
myself in this part of the country and don't want to see
another.

Now, get on with YOUR on-the-spot "aid" by tossing nastygrams
at all who don't accept the myths and morsemyths about amateur
radio. You seem to be obsessed with nastygramming all who
disagree with you. Are you a Dudly-the-Pretender Wannabe?

Meanwhile, NPRM 05-143 was before the FCC and the public
before Katrina had grown to acquire a NOAA name for it.
That NPRM might cause the utter destruction of Ham Radio
As You Know It! Don't worry. The newcomers will get a Heil
Help Net working just for you...someday...and ease your
obvious Pain and Discomfort of whatever ails your psyche.

wrote:

Really? :-)

Maybe you're right. Amateur radio towers are kept up by FAITH.
Busy gal that Faith...

Hmmm...looking at the terrible scenes in Louisiana and
Mississippi, I couldn't help but notice a few police officers
about (in New Orleans) with one talking on his police HT. Then,
on NBC news with Brian Williams, a video clip showed an antenna-
laden Humvee of the Mississippi National Guard. Oh, and the
USCG with all those helos and the hoister guy talking with the
loader-into-the-basket guy on some kind of radio. Presumably
the helo pilots can talk to their base of ops by radio. Oh,
and all the news commentators in shirt-sleeves doing their
video-audio reporting from on-scene...and various folks
telephoning in audio stories. Yup...the whole INFRASTRUCTURE
went totally kaput at the end of the Mississippi River!

And I guess you think they are all passing health and welfare traffic.





1994 Northridge Earthquake. TOTAL loss of electrical power to about
10 MILLION a few minutes after 4:30 AM. [53 persons died as a
direct result of that quake] Some places had severe structural
damage, gas main in Northridge ruptured, caught fire, various
utility poles and their lines down in many places, a few
collapsed freeway overpasses.

Blah, blah, blah,

Face it lennyboy, ham radio has and is right now playing an important
part in emergency communications in a major disaster. Too bad you can't
be a part of it....no, I take that back, with your attitude you would
only be a hindrance.

wrote:
From: Dave Heil on Aug 31, 8:25 pm



wrote:


Doesn't matter about MODE...all good morsepersons know that
all amateur radio SURVIVES all possible emergencies, floats
on water while the hams walk on water...:-)

I recall your past statements about the commercial communications
infrastructure never totally failing in an emergency.


...and you are still mad as heil and can't take it anymore. :-)

I can see where a guy who operates like you do would come to that
erroneous conclusion. It'd be sort of like the ARRL conspiracy to keep
things from being published in the Federal Register. :-) :-)


Well, Leonard the
devastation of New Orleans reveals near total collapse of the commercial
communications infrastructure.


...and you are there, reporting for ARRL Eyewitless News?

I am?

Of course you are, and nearly totally collapsed yourself in
this mighty Herculean Effort to TELL ME OFF! :-)

Telling you off is pretty easy. You invariably get things wrong. :-)

Hams are there and are producing.


They've set up a factory?!? What are they making? Floating
Ten-Tecs?

What are they making? They're making you look like you don't know what
you're talking about--again.

The
Feds are rushing communications equipment into place but amateur radio
volunteers are already on the job:


...and so has NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, Fox News teams, duly reporting
LIVE from the scene. Ahem, millions of us viewers around the
country have seen those news broadcasts.

Thanks for another masterful statement of the obvious.

Was amateur radio
handling their LIVE feeds from the disaster areas?

I thought you knew all about amateur radio and what it is and does.
Do you mean that you think amateur radio is a commercial broadcasting
endeavor?

Was amateur
radio manning those antenna-laden Humvees of the NG?

Do you think that amateur radio is the military?

Lissen-up Davie-boy: PARTS of New Orleans are TOTALLY under
water.

No, you listen up, Lennie-old-boy: Better than 80% of New Orleans is
under water.

That INCLUDES ham residences and probably some ham
equipped vehicles (hard to tell when the tops are under water).
EVERYTHING went under in some of that flooding...but NOT
everywhere, obviously from the news reports on TV.

You must not be paying much attention to those live news reports from
the area. The telephone system and cellular phones are down. From your
past comments on emergencies, *that just can't happen*, but it did.

Davie-boy, I didn't say anything "against" amateur radio as a
service, or anything nasty to the CITIZEN volunteers (ham or
not) who are busy "producing" on-the-scene.

You've certainly done so a number of times in the past.

I'm tossing stuff at INDIVIDUAL "commentators" in here.

What else is new? :-) :-)

If you
got somebody else's ripe tomato, TS for you. You throw them
at me all time...I'll save some extra-ripe ones for you, OK?

I've corrected one of your frequent factual errors.

I have nothing but PRAISE for INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS WHO
VOLUNTEER TO HELP fellow citizens in a disaster. Been there
myself in this part of the country and don't want to see
another.

Well, Mister "Nothing-but-praise", you've commented on a number of
emergency situations and have discounted accounts of amateur radio
participation. Yet there the hams are. I've listened to a number of
nets this evening on 75m. There is emergency traffic being passed.
There is health and welfare traffic being passed. As time goes by,
we'll hear accounts of the local VHF operations and the parts they played.

Now, get on with YOUR on-the-spot "aid" by tossing nastygrams
at all who don't accept the myths and morsemyths about amateur
radio.

My direct assistance from here isn't needed at all. We've already
passed health and welfare traffic on the West Virginia Phone Net,
beginning last evening. NTS is working well. It isn't a myth. Neither
is the list of active nets which I posted here. What is a myth is that
you are somehow involved in amateur radio.


You seem to be obsessed with nastygramming all who
disagree with you. Are you a Dudly-the-Pretender Wannabe?

You and Frank haven't yet discovered how to spell "Dudley". That hasn't
stopped your usual name calling.

Fire up your trusty R-70, Len, and you may be able to listen to some of
what amateur radio ops are doing toward assisting the hurricane victims.

Dave K8MN

"an_old_friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:12:57 GMT, "Jim Hampton"
wrote in :


"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
.. .
On 31 Aug 2005 11:11:52 -0700, "Bob" wrote in
.com:

Saw this morning a brief mention on Fox News about hams doing health
and welfare emergency traffic for New Orleans. "Only reliable
communications in the area". They showed a few ham transcievers, one
displaying a 70cm band frequency, another HF rig on 20 meters in the
phone subband.

This is the sort of disaster that ham radio handles well. Cell phones
are mostly out, as well as most any other comm system that needs
physical infrastructure to function.


I guess that means CB radios aren't working either, huh?




If a large area is devestated, one just might need a couple hundred mile
range 24/7. Even battery powered HTs through a repeater can get you 30
to
100 miles total between users. Hf rigs can supply you continuous
coverage
24/7 from local to thousands of miles. You just select an appropriate
frequency (ranges of a few decades in frequency may be involved here).

There may be a lot more cbs, but if you can only get 10 or 20 miles and
you
keep receiving skip from other stations far away running power ....


I never knew there was a minimum range for emergency communications.
So how far does a radio wave have to go in order to get this
distinction? A couple hundred miles? More than 10 or 20 miles? Is
there some FCC rule that defines this distance?

150 miles is the max legal CB range (a very stupid rule BTW) but in an
emergency anything goes that works

end quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In disasters, the real problem is not the rules but the nature of radio wave
propagation on the 11 meter band (as well as the similar 10m and 12m ham
bands). You can get close in (10 to 20 miles) via line of site or you get
skip out to thousands of miles via ionospheric propagation when the solar
flux is high enough. However the intermediate distances of a few hundred
miles just are not going to be covered unless you are lucky enough to get
some uncommon propagation modes like backscatter.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
nk.net...

[snip]


My direct assistance from here isn't needed at all. We've already passed
health and welfare traffic on the West Virginia Phone Net, beginning last
evening. NTS is working well. It isn't a myth. Neither is the list of
active nets which I posted here. What is a myth is that you are somehow
involved in amateur radio.


Yes we've started to receive health and welfare traffic into our area. One
of the members of the net had the great satisfaction last night of being
able to deliver a message to let someone know that their relatives were OK.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:18:13 -0700, Cmdr Buzz corey
wrote in :

Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:16:21 -0700, Cmdr Buzz corey
wrote in :


Frank Gilliland wrote:


I never knew there was a minimum range for emergency communications.
So how far does a radio wave have to go in order to get this
distinction? A couple hundred miles? More than 10 or 20 miles? Is
there some FCC rule that defines this distance?

Doesn't matter, cb is limited in it's useful range,



And ham radio is limited in it's availability. What's your point?

So what does that have to do with communication range? Name the range
you want and there is a ham band that will provide it.


What section of Part 47 declares the minimum range required for an
emergency radio communication? In fact, what section of Part 47
declares that -radio- is required for an emergency communication?


not to mention all
the idiots screaming "ten fer thar" and "aaaaaauuuuuudddddddiiiiiioooo".



Oh, I'm sure that's happening quite a bit -- hundreds of thousands of
people taking time out from trying to find lost family members, food,
water, and a dry place to sleep, just to whoop it up on the CB.

On a band full of screaming idiots yelling "ten fer thar", "git off my
channel", and "aaaaaaauuuuuuuudddddddiiiiiioooooo".


Gee, what a suprise -- you can't address the facts so you fill in the
blanks with what you -assume- to be happening. Show me what really
-is- happening and I might give your "argument" due consideration.


Idiot.

Yes they are.



Name the range you want and ham radio can provide it by using the proper
band.



Name the range and try to find a ham radio.

There are hams right now using HF/VHF/UHF frequencies to cover just
about any distance for emergency communications, so you point is?


The point is that you can't find a ham. CB radio covers local comm,
and LOCAL comm comprises the VAST MAJORITY of emergency communication.
There simply aren't enough hams to cover all the emergency comm they
claim to be able to cover. They might have the ability to play some
emergency-DX but they simply don't have the numbers..... NOR the
availability, NOR the ease of operation, NOR the licensing
requirements (or lack thereof), to handle what's required of a large
population in an emergency situation. Hammies might have gotten a warm
fuzzy from one news network, but -ALL- the news networks are showing
that things as simple as cardboard signs are -MORE EFFECTIVE- than ham
radio in such situations.


I will use your term...idiot.


The idiots are the hams manning their keys while people drown in their
own homes.








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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:19:55 -0700, Cmdr Buzz corey
wrote in :

snip
Yep, all those people holding up cardboard signs and spray-painting
"HELP" on their roofs are the hams doing what they do best -- using
low-tech communications!


You can't be that stupid...Opps sorry, you just proved you are.


You can't be that blind..... oops, sorry, I was thinking of Eric.







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Dave Heil wrote:

the
devastation of New Orleans reveals near total collapse of the
commercial communications infrastructure.

Worse than that - most of the infrastructure of any kind has collapsed.
Power is off, water and sewage out of action, roads
blocked by water, bridges collapsed.

Mississippi appears to have gotten hit even worse, with some
communities simply wiped out completely. New Orleans is getting more
news coverage in part because it's a city, and in part
because it's still under water due to being below sea level.

The big picture is still incomplete because some areas are still
completely cut off.

Nobody really knows how many are dead, but estimates of 1000
or more are the current level. At least half a million people
were made homeless.

It will be weeks or months before survivors can be allowed
back into the New Orleans area - assuming the water can be pumped out.
Much of what is still standing will have been so damaged by long-term
immersion that it will have to be knocked down.

Hams are there and are producing. The
Feds are rushing communications equipment into place but
amateur radio volunteers are already on the job

Some organizations in need of support:

American Red Cross
www.redcross.org
800-HELP NOW (435-7669) English,
800-257-7575 Spanish

Operation Blessing
www.ob.org
800-436-6348

America's Second Harvest
www.secondharvest.org
800-344-8070


Make a donation and volunteer at the following: (Use the phone to make
your
donation if the Web sites are deluged.)

Adventist Community Services
www.adventist.communityservices.org
800-381-7171

Catholic Charities USA
www.catholiccharitiesusa.org
800-919-9338

Christian Disaster Response
www.cdresponse.org
941-956-5183 or 941-551-9554

Christian Reformed World Relief Committee
www.crwrc.org
800-848-5818

Church World Service
www.churchworldservice.org
800-297-1516

Convoy of Hope
www.convoyofhope.org
417-823-8998

Lutheran Disaster Response
www.ldr.org
800-638-3522

Mennonite Disaster Service
www.mds.mennonite.net
717-859-2210

Nazarene Disaster Response
www.nazarenedisasterresponse.org
888-256-5886

Presbyterian Disaster Assistance
www.pcusa.org
800-872-3283

Salvation Army
www.salvationarmyusa.org
800-SAL-ARMY (725-2769)

Southern Baptist Convention -- Disaster Relief
www.namb.net
800-462-8657, ext. 6440

United Jewish Communities
www.ujc.org
877-277-2477

United Methodist Committee on Relief
www.gbgm-umc.org
800-554-8583

(Use the phone to make your donation if the Web sites are deluged.)

73 de Jim, N2EY

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:24:17 -0400, "Dee Flint"
wrote in
:

snip

In disasters, the real problem is


What experience have you had with disaster communications that makes
you think you can draw any sort of conclusion as to what the problems
are or might be?


not the rules but the nature of radio wave
propagation on the 11 meter band (as well as the similar 10m and 12m ham
bands). You can get close in (10 to 20 miles) via line of site or you get
skip out to thousands of miles via ionospheric propagation when the solar
flux is high enough. However the intermediate distances of a few hundred
miles just are not going to be covered unless you are lucky enough to get
some uncommon propagation modes like backscatter.


What makes you think that DX radio comprises all -- or even a major
part of -- communications in a disaster or emergency situation?









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