Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
Doesn't matter about MODE...all good morsepersons know that
all amateur radio SURVIVES all possible emergencies, floats
on water while the hams walk on water...:-)

I recall your past statements about the commercial communications
infrastructure never totally failing in an emergency. Well, Leonard the
devastation of New Orleans reveals near total collapse of the commercial
communications infrastructure. Hams are there and are producing. The
Feds are rushing communications equipment into place but amateur radio
volunteers are already on the job:


and indeed the article in the washington post (
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083102656.html
) prove Len correct

text messaging system are there plugging allong with the hams

remainder cut to save BW

Frank Gilliland wrote:



The point is that you can't find a ham. CB radio covers local comm,
and LOCAL comm comprises the VAST MAJORITY of emergency communication.

Which more than likely it won't be via cb, but ham radio UHF/VHF or
other services on UHF/VHF.

There simply aren't enough hams to cover all the emergency comm they
claim to be able to cover. They might have the ability to play some
emergency-DX but they simply don't have the numbers.


And 10,000 idiot cbers all shouting "ten fer thar", and
"aaaaaauuuuuudddddiiiiiooo" all over 11 meters is a large number of
idiots with radios, but of no help at all.


The idiots are the hams manning their keys while people drown in their
own homes.

At least they are helping in a way they are capable. So you want them to
paddle out on their radios to save someone? And what are you doing while
people drown? Anything? Didn't think so.

Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:24:17 -0400, "Dee Flint"
wrote in
:

snip

In disasters, the real problem is



What experience have you had with disaster communications that makes
you think you can draw any sort of conclusion as to what the problems
are or might be?



not the rules but the nature of radio wave
propagation on the 11 meter band (as well as the similar 10m and 12m ham
bands). You can get close in (10 to 20 miles) via line of site or you get
skip out to thousands of miles via ionospheric propagation when the solar
flux is high enough. However the intermediate distances of a few hundred
miles just are not going to be covered unless you are lucky enough to get
some uncommon propagation modes like backscatter.



What makes you think that DX radio comprises all -- or even a major
part of -- communications in a disaster or emergency situation?

No one has said that is does frankie, do please try to keep up.

Frank Gilliland wrote:



The idiots are the hams manning their keys while people drown in their
own homes.


These "idiot" hams helped save more than a "dozen people". And please
notice that they weren't all in the local area either, as in Portland,
Ore., and Utah.

Washington Post:
Communications Networks Fail Disaster Area Residents

"But he spoke to a fellow ham in Portland, Ore., who found another
operator in Utah who was finally able to reach operators in Louisiana.
The radio operators in Louisiana got word to emergency personnel, who
rescued more than a dozen people in the house, including Hayes's
81-year-old aunt."


So how many people have you and your cb saved frankie?

an_old_friend wrote:
) prove Len correct

text messaging system are there plugging allong with the hams

You seem to indicate that text messages can magically access the system
when voice cannot. If you can't access the network for voice you can't
access it for text messages either. The only reason they are using text
messaging, where they can get a signal which is very spotty, is because
text is sent in small packets thus saving batteries and ties up the
network less.

"Mobile-phone providers said their service was *severely limited*, at
best, in New Orleans and along the Mississippi coast, and they
encouraged people to use text messages instead of making voice calls.
Text messages are sent in small "packets" of data, using less bandwidth
to get through overloaded lines more easily."

If the cell network is down, so is text messaging.

"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:24:17 -0400, "Dee Flint"
wrote in
:

snip

In disasters, the real problem is


What experience have you had with disaster communications that makes
you think you can draw any sort of conclusion as to what the problems
are or might be?


not the rules but the nature of radio wave
propagation on the 11 meter band (as well as the similar 10m and 12m ham
bands). You can get close in (10 to 20 miles) via line of site or you get
skip out to thousands of miles via ionospheric propagation when the solar
flux is high enough. However the intermediate distances of a few hundred
miles just are not going to be covered unless you are lucky enough to get
some uncommon propagation modes like backscatter.


What makes you think that DX radio comprises all -- or even a major
part of -- communications in a disaster or emergency situation?


I did not mention DX. But there is often a great need to communicate within
the surrounding couple of hundred miles.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Cmdr Buzz Corey" wrote in message
...
Frank Gilliland wrote:



The idiots are the hams manning their keys while people drown in their
own homes.


These "idiot" hams helped save more than a "dozen people". And please
notice that they weren't all in the local area either, as in Portland,
Ore., and Utah.

Washington Post:
Communications Networks Fail Disaster Area Residents

"But he spoke to a fellow ham in Portland, Ore., who found another
operator in Utah who was finally able to reach operators in Louisiana. The
radio operators in Louisiana got word to emergency personnel, who rescued
more than a dozen people in the house, including Hayes's 81-year-old
aunt."


So how many people have you and your cb saved frankie?

Them CB fellers is "a-standin' fer that 'ee-mer--gen-cee'
traffic (that never comes! )

J

wrote in message
oups.com...
From: Jim Hampton on Aug 31, 5:08 pm

wrote in message


Doesn't matter about MODE...all good morsepersons know that
all amateur radio SURVIVES all possible emergencies, floats
on water while the hams walk on water...:-)

Of course not Len. Not everything survives; the portable and mobile
stuff
will survive far better than the cellphone towers, police towers and even
amateur towers. The smaller towers (usually amateur), however, do have
the
one advantage of a much smaller windload to carry.

Really? :-)

Maybe you're right. Amateur radio towers are kept up by FAITH.
Busy gal that Faith...

Hmmm...looking at the terrible scenes in Louisiana and
Mississippi, I couldn't help but notice a few police officers
about (in New Orleans) with one talking on his police HT. Then,
on NBC news with Brian Williams, a video clip showed an antenna-
laden Humvee of the Mississippi National Guard. Oh, and the
USCG with all those helos and the hoister guy talking with the
loader-into-the-basket guy on some kind of radio. Presumably
the helo pilots can talk to their base of ops by radio. Oh,
and all the news commentators in shirt-sleeves doing their
video-audio reporting from on-scene...and various folks
telephoning in audio stories. Yup...the whole INFRASTRUCTURE
went totally kaput at the end of the Mississippi River!

The biggest difference might just lie in understanding how things work.

ESPECIALLY everyone's local INFRASTRUCTURE, communications-wise.


I've been involved in exactly two emergency situations. One was on ssb
with
Hans K0HB and the other was on 500 KHz. Yes, the cw is old, but the
situation involving Hans can happen at any time. Amazingly, that huge
coast
guard tower did *not* survive the typhoon. An hf amateur rig could load
a
chain link fence and provide reliable communications.

So, do tell us your experiences with emergency communications and why you
know that amateur radio will always (or never) float.

1994 Northridge Earthquake. TOTAL loss of electrical power to about
10 MILLION a few minutes after 4:30 AM. [53 persons died as a
direct result of that quake] Some places had severe structural
damage, gas main in Northridge ruptured, caught fire, various
utility poles and their lines down in many places, a few
collapsed freeway overpasses.

LAFD and other professional FDs had leased lines that went straight
to stations, didn't go through the switching centers of telephone
offices. All of them followed the pre-existing emergency plan and
rolled out. A few answered radio calls to fires that had broken out
(FDs have back-up electrical power for their base stations). PDs
were in constant contact by radio, their bases also having backup
electrical power. The hospitals of course had their emergency
electrical generators going and most of the ambulance services not
a part of hospitals were able to communicate by their radios.
TOTAL street blackout except for headlights of vehicles, that way
until sun-up (late, it was January 17th). Utility companies had
the greatest workload of all, but they had their radios and could
communicate...just too many places to go to to fix things all at
once...but they managed to contact all able employees to get them
to work (some going direct to repair sites).

Electrical power restoration didn't come back until shortly before
noon, a sequential area-by-area turn-on necessary to keep the AC
frequency constant. Got my residence power back at 2 PM, could see
the TV scenes (TV broadcasters long ago had backup electric power).
FEMA was on the scene the next day, doing the first real trial of
their flyaway terminals...and set up VIDEO bulletin boards so that
folks here could post things for faraway family and friends. About
2:30 PM on the 17th I got a telephone call from my uncle and aunt
in Florida, worried call; we were okay and we talked at some length.
They had no problem getting through. I got a call about 10 AM (give
or take) wanting me to help out with a utility company the next day;
no problem getting through to my residence phone.

Was there any amateur radio activated here on that 17th of January?
I'm not sure. Haven't heard of any locally. All I know is what
I've seen of the Greater L.A. Emergency Communications System and
its periodic drilling, refining of procedures, etc. Amateurs were
not a part of that in 1994. That system worked just as it was
expected to, even if it was part of the INFRASTRUCTURE that "was
supposed to fail."

Ham equipment can "float?" Haven't seen any yet with floation
devices. I'm sure someone can jury rig something for them.
National HROs and Halliscratchers are all boat anchors and will
dutifully go to the bottom of the water. Larry Roll once
postulated a Ten-Tec that "floated ashore" to a hypothetical
desert island after a hypothetical ship sinking and he used
that to send hypothetical messages from that by hypothetical
morse code (which didn't require any hypothetical electric
power..."CW gets through when nothing else will" and stuff
like thet there). Larry had too many hypos perhaps and
departed the newsgroup on April 15 last year. My house
is 830 feet above mean sea level; am NOT worried about
flooding.

Now, I'm absolutely sure that amateur radio CAN be a definite
help in a big disasterous emergency. Sometime. Besides the
documentary film about invading space aliens, that is. I'm
just NOT convinced that the INFRASTRUCTURE is going to FAIL to
such as extent that amateur radio is "the only possible savior."

From what I've seen on the TV news of the terrible destruction
from hurricane Katrina, the average amateur radio station in
the average New Orleans residence is not only submerged to the
roof line, but the electric power to it is out and any emergency
generators that might have been at those stations are completely
under water. If the shingles of a roof can blow off completely
in the downwash of a USCG helo (as has been seen by millions of
viewers), you'll have a hard sell to me on saying "amateur radio
towers have less wind loading and will survive" because I ain't
gonna believe some rinky-dink wire antennas I've seen can hold
up under 100+ MPH winds. I WILL believe an NG Humvee with VRCs
can do their nevis thing (cloud-burning) and get through to the
horizon IN such winds.

With most kindest warmest kissy-poo regards,





LOL, Hello, Len

Thanks, but I'll pass on the kissy-poo regards )

You know, the few times we come close to arguing, I find that we are quite
close to agreeing. I think a lot of the problem is that many get
sidetracked over the great (if one can call it great) cw debate.

The answer, of course, is to use whatever resources are available should one
find themselves in such an unfortunate situation.

The size of the asset that amateur radio becomes is most likely decided by
the size of the area that is affected. That big NE ice storm a few years
back (late 90s) affected areas for hundreds of miles. They were asking for
mobile hf hams. I suspect that many hams in the affected area did loose
their towers, but, as I mentioned, the smaller towers have the advantage of
less wind loading (and less ice to support too).

Mobile ops supplied a lot of help during that mess as their rigs and
antennas came in from an unaffected area. HTs would not have helped (except
in very localized support) as they don't have the kind of coverage needed.
Many repeaters were off, some were still on, and at least one was pressed
into use by the police (plugged their radio into the repeater coax).

In closing, let me wish you best regards and pass on the kissy-poo


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA

Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
) prove Len correct

text messaging system are there plugging allong with the hams

You seem to indicate that text messages can magically access the system
when voice cannot. If you can't access the network for voice you can't
access it for text messages either. The only reason they are using text
messaging, where they can get a signal which is very spotty, is because
text is sent in small packets thus saving batteries and ties up the
network less.

No I did not indicate it, the washington post reported it


"Mobile-phone providers said their service was *severely limited*, at
best, in New Orleans and along the Mississippi coast, and they
encouraged people to use text messages instead of making voice calls.
Text messages are sent in small "packets" of data, using less bandwidth
to get through overloaded lines more easily."

If the cell network is down, so is text messaging.

but if text messaging is getting through then the system is not down

It's likely only a few lines are functioning, so a low bandwidth method
like text messaging would be perferred. So more users can make use of
the limited bandwidth.