wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
wrote in message
From: Dan/W4NTI on Sep 1, 5:26 pm

I hope you folks can give a listen to HF during this disaster. It is
amazing how Ham Radio has stepped up to the plate and is providing
Communications where the Commercial infrastructure is destroyed.

"Commercial infrastructure" is defined as anything non-amateur?

Agreed.

Let me revise that.

If non-amateur includes CD, FRS and GMRS then I agree. If by
amateur Len is only referencing the Amateur Service (Part 97)
then I disagree and would suggest the following.

Commercial Infrastructure is anything other than CB, FRS,
GMRS or Amateur Service.

Bill, not to nit-pick, but on the same subject you would have to
add in the NATIONAL GUARD. Definitely not "commercial." One
could also add the National Military Forces should they be
activated; Louisiana NG is already activated within that state.
National Guard has rugged multi-environment equipment and
vehicles.

We can also consider local PUBLIC SAFETY agencies as "non-
commercial" (police, fire, ambulances), could we not? In truth,
New Orleans has only 1,500 police officers, not nearly enough
to properly police things in such a devastated area, but they
do have local radio communications equipment.

---

We ought to consider what BASIC EMERGENCY NEEDS are. Plain survival
always comes first with humans (sex is secondary to survival). For
that the BASIC NEEDS a Food, shelter (dry), toilet, hygiene,
clothing/footwear (as appropriate for climate), medical (as needed,
not all need it immediately), protection/police. That order is
approximate, most-to-least.

In the immediate disaster areas of Louisiana and Mississippi, those
basic needs are being provided (not necessarily all or in order) by
the LOCALS who are within human-voice talking distance of victims.
Most of those BASIC NEEDS come from supplies and/or services and
must be physically delivered. In many observed situations, supplies
and services CANNOT be phsically delivered due to flooding making
roads impassible, existing aerial wires prohibiting helicopter
descents, debris of all kinds inhibiting water or vehicles.

Looking at the overall big picture of SURVIVAL for tens of thousands
of victims, "communications" some distance away is NOT on the BASIC
SURVIVAL need list. Victims want to communicate with immediate
rescuers, helpers, aid people FIRST. They must have BASIC NEEDS.
Once those basic needs are at least partly satisfied, they can
turn their attention to distant communications, to contact family,
friends...but that is NOT in the basic needs listing.

Those of us sitting in safe, dry homes, typing away at keyboards,
have the basic needs at hand, don't need help. Most of us don't
think about them because we aren't in a disaster zone, suffering
the aftermath of widespread destruction, flooding. It is very
easy to talk about radio networks and health and welfare messages
AS IF they were some kind of "basic needs" but those are NOT.
Yes, news to/from family and friends IS important, but, when faced
with a loss of everything or nearly everything in the BASIC NEEDS
FOR SURVIVAL listing, it is way down on the importance priority.

For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

Bill K2UNK

Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:



I must ask... What's the difference? Does
it mean that ham radio isn't providing helpful and needed
additional communications?

Lennieboy would like to belive that with all his little heart, but the
fact remains...ham radio has and is at this very moment providing much
need emergency comms in the disaster area. Ham radio continues to be a
very helpful tool in disaster emergency comms, much to the chagrin of
the likes of lennieboy and frankieboy.

more making up stuff again

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
cut
For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

And Len is pointing that it seems that Hams in here and the ARRL it
publication is rateing the importance of that aid the ARS does provide
and inflating it.

In his opinion and mine to point of turning it into something of a Lie

Ham radio provides useful, important, and valuble aid in a disaster
(esp in one of this size) but it is in the ssecondary (but important
feilds) very if any of the Ham radio is all that VITAL, and we (hams)
are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise

It is if I may presume to speack for Len the sin of hubris that Len
cautions against (as do I)

Hubris is dangerous if we are seen as too full of hubris instaed taking
our due credit,we the ARS may be seen by the powers that be as unworthy
of the freqs we hold

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Bill K2UNK

"an_old_friend" wrote in message
ups.com...

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
cut
For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

And Len is pointing that it seems that Hams in here and the ARRL it
publication is rateing the importance of that aid the ARS does provide
and inflating it.

In his opinion and mine to point of turning it into something of a Lie

Ham radio provides useful, important, and valuble aid in a disaster
(esp in one of this size) but it is in the ssecondary (but important
feilds) very if any of the Ham radio is all that VITAL, and we (hams)
are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise

It is if I may presume to speack for Len the sin of hubris that Len
cautions against (as do I)

Hubris is dangerous if we are seen as too full of hubris instaed taking
our due credit,we the ARS may be seen by the powers that be as unworthy
of the freqs we hold

From everything I've heard so far, as a result of Hurricane Katrina,
we (hams) will be viewed as considerably worthy of the frequencies
we are allowed to operate on.

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:
"an_old_friend" wrote in message
ups.com...

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08


"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
cut
For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

And Len is pointing that it seems that Hams in here and the ARRL it
publication is rateing the importance of that aid the ARS does provide
and inflating it.

In his opinion and mine to point of turning it into something of a Lie

Ham radio provides useful, important, and valuble aid in a disaster
(esp in one of this size) but it is in the ssecondary (but important
feilds) very if any of the Ham radio is all that VITAL, and we (hams)
are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise

It is if I may presume to speack for Len the sin of hubris that Len
cautions against (as do I)

Hubris is dangerous if we are seen as too full of hubris instaed taking
our due credit,we the ARS may be seen by the powers that be as unworthy
of the freqs we hold

From everything I've heard so far, as a result of Hurricane Katrina,
we (hams) will be viewed as considerably worthy of the frequencies
we are allowed to operate on.

as do I but if we make it more than it is we risk damaging the the
value of that service in maintaining our freqs

Indeed we have seen some of the regs in here spend years calling those
that even want to discuss how much we are doing and its value savagely
attacked by others for even bring the question up

I think it is vital that we all take a GOOD look at this disaster and
be very careful what we say about it and about our roles in it

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.

But i see hams, here at least, dismissing the efforts and uses of other
means, indeed even insulting them. Over the years frankly at best
bluring the lines of what we have have done, and I am guessing we will
see more later later in print (based on past write ups or other
disasters)

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:

"an_old_friend" wrote in message

snip

Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us


Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.

Who decides?

For some in this group. any is too much.

- Mike KB3EIA -

From: Bill Sohl on Sep 2, 6:46 am

wrote in message
From: "Bill Sohl" on Fri 2 Sep 2005 02:08
"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
wrote in message
From: Dan/W4NTI on Sep 1, 5:26 pm


I hope you folks can give a listen to HF during this disaster. It is
amazing how Ham Radio has stepped up to the plate and is providing
Communications where the Commercial infrastructure is destroyed.

"Commercial infrastructure" is defined as anything non-amateur?

Agreed.

Let me revise that.

If non-amateur includes CD, FRS and GMRS then I agree. If by
amateur Len is only referencing the Amateur Service (Part 97)
then I disagree and would suggest the following.

Commercial Infrastructure is anything other than CB, FRS,
GMRS or Amateur Service.

Bill, not to nit-pick, but on the same subject you would have to
add in the NATIONAL GUARD. Definitely not "commercial." One
could also add the National Military Forces should they be
activated; Louisiana NG is already activated within that state.
National Guard has rugged multi-environment equipment and
vehicles.

We can also consider local PUBLIC SAFETY agencies as "non-
commercial" (police, fire, ambulances), could we not? In truth,
New Orleans has only 1,500 police officers, not nearly enough
to properly police things in such a devastated area, but they
do have local radio communications equipment.

---

We ought to consider what BASIC EMERGENCY NEEDS are. Plain survival
always comes first with humans (sex is secondary to survival). For
that the BASIC NEEDS a Food, shelter (dry), toilet, hygiene,
clothing/footwear (as appropriate for climate), medical (as needed,
not all need it immediately), protection/police. That order is
approximate, most-to-least.

In the immediate disaster areas of Louisiana and Mississippi, those
basic needs are being provided (not necessarily all or in order) by
the LOCALS who are within human-voice talking distance of victims.
Most of those BASIC NEEDS come from supplies and/or services and
must be physically delivered. In many observed situations, supplies
and services CANNOT be phsically delivered due to flooding making
roads impassible, existing aerial wires prohibiting helicopter
descents, debris of all kinds inhibiting water or vehicles.

Looking at the overall big picture of SURVIVAL for tens of thousands
of victims, "communications" some distance away is NOT on the BASIC
SURVIVAL need list. Victims want to communicate with immediate
rescuers, helpers, aid people FIRST. They must have BASIC NEEDS.
Once those basic needs are at least partly satisfied, they can
turn their attention to distant communications, to contact family,
friends...but that is NOT in the basic needs listing.

Those of us sitting in safe, dry homes, typing away at keyboards,
have the basic needs at hand, don't need help. Most of us don't
think about them because we aren't in a disaster zone, suffering
the aftermath of widespread destruction, flooding. It is very
easy to talk about radio networks and health and welfare messages
AS IF they were some kind of "basic needs" but those are NOT.
Yes, news to/from family and friends IS important, but, when faced
with a loss of everything or nearly everything in the BASIC NEEDS
FOR SURVIVAL listing, it is way down on the importance priority.

For tens of thousands of humans in Louisiana and Mississippi, the
basic needs for survival are NEEDED NOW. Most don't have a single
one of the basic needs now and none of those can be supplied by a
radio. Local aid people have to handle that, up-close and
personal, ON THE SCENE. Now radio communications CAN be of
service to those local aid people, coordinating their activities
and delivery/distribution of needed supplies/shelter. Such radio
communications is presently being handled by radio facilities that
survived the hurricane and following flooding. Maybe THAT is
where amateur radios (that also survived the hurricane and flooding)
can help. "Health and welfare messages" just wouldn't be on a
disaster victim's immediate needs right now.

True to a point, but there's also been no shortage of victims making
an efffort to let others know they are safe. Not every victim there is
only inward focused on their own basic needs.

I would revise that, Bill. There is fear, anxiety, anger, all
sorts of extreme emotions being displayed for anyone to see.

"Inward focus" is an inappropriate choice of words. There are
over a QUARTER MILLION HOMES destroyed/unliveable/not-there in
the disaster zones of the Mississippi Delta. All those homeless
JUST DON'T HAVE ANY BASIC NEEDS. Period. That is their ONLY
"focus" right now.

We need to put things in perspective...and rationally try to
imagine the plight of victims who have lost almost ALL of their
basic survival necessities.

Agreed...and the only point I am trying to make is
that amateur radio can and is oproviding help for
communications. Whatever help that may be, it is still
of value and would not necessarily be happening by
other (commercial/military/whatever) services because
ALL the help resources are already maxed to their limit.

Unfortunately, there will and ARE a bunch of ham flag wavers in
here doing their emotional thing and triumphing on the "great
help" that amateur radio is doing. Those emotional beings are
essentially equating their hobby activity, self-pride, and
whatever else they feel about the hobby "service" with that of a
few who are providing emotional sustenance to SOME "civilians"
who have made it to the periphery of the disaster area.

My wife and I just watched a supply convoy of high-wheeled
trucks (dozens) loaded with many things inching their way into
New Orleans through water, their wheels leaving a virtual boat
wake, somehow able to stay on a hard-to-see "roadway." Radio
didn't drive those trucks. I doubt those truck drivers are
"amateur" drivers. I salute THEM for daring to bring much-
needed supplies through a seemingly impassible path.

Yes, there ARE emotional needs for many and amateur radio WILL
satisfy those things. But, the providers of such emotional
filling are NOT "heroes," just good people who help any way
they can. A lot of named and anonymous posters in here are
wrapping themselves in "hero" clothing just by identifying with
the REAL WORKERS getting up-close and personal with victims IN
the disaster area. Those named and anonymous are sitting safe
and far away from any current disaster and drinking in some
personally-perceived glory and acclaim while NOT being in any
danger or even taken away from their recreation.

We WILL see a similar outpouring from the big national amateur
membership organization on all the "help" being provided. That
is what many of the safe and untouched radio hobbyists want to
hear, feeding their own self-enobling egos. That has gone on
for years. It is the basis for more myths and sagas which will
be repeated many times in an effort of self-enoblement...and
fostering a false spirit of do-gooderism by said organization.
But, trying to bring reality into such self-praising efforts is
counterproductive. The self-enoblers can do no wrong, as they
often imply (if not stating outright). They will fight to a
newsgroup death for their "right" to enoble themselves, their
"virtue" and "sanctity." Phooey.

There are many REAL Aid Organizations hard at work. We can all
support those as best we can. We can also reward those who are
up-close and personal IN the disaster areas, doing things for
victims to restore their BASIC NEEDS. Self-enoblement of a
radio hobby is a bit out of place when this nation has just
experienced the worst disaster in its history.

Health and Welfare traffic is lower priority but it's still important
for people to know that their friends/relatives are okay and they know
he's okay too. Then they can attend to matters at hand with a clearer
head. Ham radio offloads H&W from police/govt/mil comm links so they
have enough bandwidth to handle the high priority stuff.

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:24:36 GMT, "Bill Sohl"
wrote in
. net:

snip
Be proud Hams, but claim no glory not due us, there is enough due us

Agree completely, but I don't see any hams claiming any undue
glory to begin with.


Maybe, maybe not. But it sure wouldn't hurt to postpone the medal
presentation ceremonies until -after- they find and bury all the
bodies.







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Isn't it ironic citizens despise amateur radio and they will go to court to
insure amateur antennas are never installed in their neighborhood. But when
commercial radio and cell phone fail, they expect we can provide
communication without antennas. Think about it.

AA8X




"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message
ink.net...
I hope you folks can give a listen to HF during this disaster. It is
amazing how Ham Radio has stepped up to the plate and is providing
Communications where the Commercial infrastructure is destroyed.

7290, 7285, 14.265, 3935, 3873, 3965 and many others I am sure.

I'm listening to a young lady right now with the Baptist feeding unit in
Biloxi Mississippi on the Alabama net frequency of 3965 passing messages
to family and friends outside of the disaster area.

Such as "Daddy were alright" Don't worry have not been able to call
before.

And this is for you Len Anderson......take your anti-ham crap and shove
it.

Back to work, thanks to you all for the help you are providing.

Dan/W4NTI