Dee Flint wrote:

Didn't say that. Said scouts are under the supervision and leadership of
adults and not on an equal footing with the adults.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

There is no requirement for a merit badge counselor to be a scout
leader. There is no requirement for a scout leader to supervise a
scout and his merit badge counselor, however, the merit badge counselor
must fill out a form and be approved to perform as such.

The merit badge counselor works like the "Elmer" concept in amateur
radio. What do you think happens when the scout is going for his Radio
merit badge?

"Iitoi" wrote in message
...

Wrote:

It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands, working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion,
etc., without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.


Why are those modes "better" than voice?

Seems that a voice conversation, under almost every circumstance, would
lead to a richer exchange of information and better interperson
understanding than either Morse or "data" modes. Voices naturally
convey emotion and mood, allow an almost continuous range of emphasis,
and can use different inflection to add subtle but important syntactic
variations to many words. None of this is possible in Morse or "data"
modes, except in some very crude ways such as emoticons.

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ


--
Iitoi

I believe that his point was that on the non-voice modes, you cannot tell
whether someone is male or female or whether they are young or old. So that
there is less chance of them being discriminated against or harassed by
those who think women or young people should not be on the radio.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

No, I understand very well. In fact, that's my point. Voice conversations inherently provide more information, just as you point out.

???????????

"who is talking" and "how they are talking" are often (if not always) as important in understanding "what is being said".

Consider this question: "How much should I take off?" Suppose the questioner was your barber discussing your hair, or a romantic partner discussing her attire, or car salesperson discussing price discounts. Clearly the meaning of that query is wildly different depending on "who is talking and how they are talking".

Since those factors serve to amplify and refine the simple "bare" words, adding a layer of "richness", they are a strength (not a weakness) of voice conversation over the terse exchange of Morse or "data" signals.

In summary, "What is being said, who is saying it, and how they are saying it" will always lead to a richer conversation than just "what is being said".

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ

wrote in message
oups.com...

Dee Flint wrote:

Didn't say that. Said scouts are under the supervision and leadership of
adults and not on an equal footing with the adults.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

There is no requirement for a merit badge counselor to be a scout
leader. There is no requirement for a scout leader to supervise a
scout and his merit badge counselor, however, the merit badge counselor
must fill out a form and be approved to perform as such.

The merit badge counselor works like the "Elmer" concept in amateur
radio. What do you think happens when the scout is going for his Radio
merit badge?


When the scout earns a merit badge, it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout masters or leaders. That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.

On the other hand, a 14 year old ham radio licensee has all the same rights,
privileges, and responsibilities as any other licensee of the same class.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:

When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders. That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.

Indeed.

Also interesting to note that the Scouts (both Boy and Girl) have
an elaborate system of "rank, status, and privilege" by which
they classify different members, and their accomplishments.

An "incentive" system, if you will.

On the other hand, a 14 year old ham radio licensee

....or a 10 year old, or an 8 year old...

has all the same rights,
privileges, and responsibilities as
any other licensee of the same class.

And it's been that way (in the USA) since at least 1912.

Yet the proponents of an age requirement for a USA-issued
amateur license cannot provide any evidence that the lack
of such a requirement has caused problems for the ARS.

More important, this lack of an age requirement plus the
anonymizing nature of Morse Code and the "data modes" has
promoted and supported a form of equality among hams of all ages
are/were very rare.

Perhaps it is this equality that bothers some people so much.

When I was a 13 year old calling CQ on
80 CW, those who heard my signal and answered did not know
I was a seventh-grader unless I told them.

When I was 14 and
NCSing section nets and taking traffic to the region net, (all
using Morse Code) no one asked or cared how old I was - they
only cared if I was a competent operator.

There's a teenager who has the distinction of being the youngest
ham to earn an Amateur Extra class license - which that ham did
at the age of 8. Our first QSO (using Morse Code, naturally) was
when that amateur was 10 - and I didn't find out about the age thing
until well into the QSO.

Why should there be an age limit for an amateur radio license?

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:

When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders. That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.

Indeed.

Also interesting to note that the Scouts (both Boy and Girl) have
an elaborate system of "rank, status, and privilege" by which
they classify different members, and their accomplishments.

it works well for children

An "incentive" system, if you will.

it works well for children

now what it that has to do with the ARS I don't know unless you are
endorsing the childish one upmanship we see so often in the ARS

On the other hand, a 14 year old ham radio licensee

...or a 10 year old, or an 8 year old...

has all the same rights,
privileges, and responsibilities as
any other licensee of the same class.

And it's been that way (in the USA) since at least 1912.

Yet the proponents of an age requirement for a USA-issued
amateur license cannot provide any evidence that the lack
of such a requirement has caused problems for the ARS.

proponents? what proponents? Len is now sevaeral people in your eyes?


More important, this lack of an age requirement plus the
anonymizing nature of Morse Code and the "data modes" has
promoted and supported a form of equality among hams of all ages
are/were very rare.

bull**** you have trailed off into complete fantasy

Perhaps it is this equality that bothers some people so much.

When I was a 13 year old calling CQ on
80 CW, those who heard my signal and answered did not know
I was a seventh-grader unless I told them.

When I was 14 and
NCSing section nets and taking traffic to the region net, (all
using Morse Code) no one asked or cared how old I was - they
only cared if I was a competent operator.

There's a teenager who has the distinction of being the youngest
ham to earn an Amateur Extra class license - which that ham did
at the age of 8. Our first QSO (using Morse Code, naturally) was
when that amateur was 10 - and I didn't find out about the age thing
until well into the QSO.

Why should there be an age limit for an amateur radio license?

why are you beating a dead horse?

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:

When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.

That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.

That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.

Indeed.

Has it ever?

Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.

wrote:


More important, this lack of an age requirement plus the
anonymizing nature of Morse Code and the "data modes" has
promoted and supported a form of equality among hams of all ages
are/were very rare.

Perhaps it is this equality that bothers some people so much.

" It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands, working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion,
etc., without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice."

So which is it, Jim?

Does Morse Code anonymize the participants or doesn't it?

If the participants are anonymous, how is it that you can hear that
they are "of all ages on the ham bands, working each other regardless
of age, gender, race, religion, etc., without prejudice or
classification by same. Morse Code and the "data modes" are better for
this than voice."

73 de Jim, N2EY

Good grief, Jim. At least you could have posted this stuff in
different threads so it wouldn't be so easy to spot.

Best of Luck

wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
Dee Flint wrote:

When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.

That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.

That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.

Indeed.

Has it ever?

Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.


And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization that has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I. It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Is there a large percentage (or even a measurable fraction) of hams "who think women or young people should not be on the radio"?

I think you have to go back several decades to the legendary W2OY (with aplologies to the current holder) to find a single visible example of that attitude.

As a member of multiple minority groups (Native American, Hispanic surname, non-Christian religion) I'm sensitive to discrimination and harrassment issues. My long and enthusiastic association with amateur radio is in large part due to my complete acceptance within the hobby without any regard to my ethnic roots, skin color, or religion. Neither have I seen anything but complete acceptance of young people and those of the fairer gender in the hobby. If the general population were as tolerant of diversity as I've found the ham hobbiests to be, this would certainly be a nicer place to live.

Thus N2EY's suggestion (if that's really his point as you surmise) that young people and females would do well to mask themselves behind keys/keyboards to avoid unpleasantness is ludicrous on it's face, and might be construed as a projection of an unrevealed agenda of his own.

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ