From: Frank Gilliland on Dec 18, 11:00 am

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:19:28 GMT, Dave Heil wrote
wrote:

part of the military that wasn't glamorous, didn't wear flashy
or cute uniforms, and bore the brunt of national defense as it
always has since 1776...with the casualty rates the highest of
any branch, from battlefields of Pennsylvania to the Persian
Gulf area of Dubya's rule.

The Signal Corps has the highest casualty rate, or did you mean the U.S.
Army?

The Signal Corps. The first target of any combat unit is the guy (or
tank, amtrack, jeep, etc.) with the antennas. The second target is the
guy -next- to the guy with the antenna because he is usually an
officer.

Frank, I originally wrote ARMY, relative to Navy, Air Force, etc.

Davie, in an effort to be as dick-tatorial as possible, edited
the quote to set up a following rebuke of the Signal Corps.

Department of Defense casualty figures are the reference as to
which branch gives the most. Anyone can look those up.

In the Army the "front-line" (we called them just "line")
radio users were just ordinary infantry, artillery, or armor
troops who've had quickie courses in using their radios.

Those aren't Signal Corpsmen per se.

Is that something to brag about?

Yep. It takes some big, hairy balls to walk onto the battlefield
carrying a piece of equipment that will be the first thing the enemy
shoots at, especially when the radio is bulky and/or heavy enough to
limit your mobility. The casualty rate for radiomen in combat is even
higher than EOD.

That used to be true but the paradigm has flipped over today.
The common manpack radio is the SINCGARS for land forces, both
Army and Marines. The SIP or SINCGARS Improvement Program has
resulted in a manpack radio that is half the bulk and half the
weight of the original (beginning 1989) SINCGARS sets. Some
250 thousand total R/Ts were manufactured and operational as of
the end of 2004, making that the most-produced military radio
of all time...roughly double that of the PRC-25/-77 of the
Vietnam era. I don't have any current figures on the SIP
production-fielding, but the older SINCGARS cases-chassis
(PRC-119) have been turning up on E-Bay, so there is a new
beginning "surplus" area for "green" (military) collectors.

When I was in, we "rear echelon" troops would exercise in
infantry training using PRC-6s and PRC-9s (manpack). Those
VHF whips aren't that noticeable and the (about) 20 pound
manpack radio was half the weight and bulk of the old WW2
SCR-300 Walkie-Talkie. Being of average height and build,
I never found it limited my mobility much then.

During the Korean War active phase, the highest casualty rate
got specialized to the pole linemen...extremely vulnerable
targets at work with absolutely no cover but the pole. The
Army got wise unusually quickly and set about getting lay-on-
the-ground multi-channel cable such as the "Spiral-4" stuff
used in newer terminal/radio-relay equipments. That was used
more than aerial line pairs in Vietnam. I doubt that big,
hairy ball USAF MARS operators in SE Asia ever noticed that.

The SE Asian topography and dictated limited movement of troops
led to concentrations of communications on whatever hilltops
could be secured. That led to concentration of enemy fire on
those relatively concentrated units with resulting heavy
casualties. The Army was stuck with most of those tasks
although the Marines did some of those radio hilltops. USAF
MARS operators weren't doing those things, despite their
claims of "being in-country" as much as combat troops.

By 1990-1991 the "command track" concept of concentration of
radios in certain vehicles was already lessening. Newer
radios were more multi-purpose, multi-band, more agile and
there were fewer tell-tale antennas to spot. Desert Storm
isn't a good model for comparison since EVERYONE on land was
ON THE MOVE in perhaps the quickest panzerfaust operation of
any military at any time. It was largely armor-against-armor
in an overwhelming over-run condition. The USAF and Navy Air
had cut the Iraqi communications centers already during
Desert Shield, leaving their ground forces with limited
command track capability and little coordination. It was a
rout for our side, taking only five days of ground war.

By the time of Dubya's War, things were turned around again.
Humvees are the local "command tracks" all over and the
targets of hidden bombs and mines. Those are indiscrimate
as to whether they have visible radio equipment or not.
Different game, different rules, different playing field.

While land forces have radios with excellent resistance to
interception and jamming, we are up against Iraqis (and
Afghanis) who aren't "radio knowledgeable" to any useful
degree and don't know enough to look for "command tracks"
or antenna concentrations. EVERYONE who wears a uniform
in those areas needs big, hairy balls to venture about.

Happy Christmas

wrote:
From: on Dec 17, 4:27 am

wrote:
From: on Dec 16, 3:41 pm
wrote:


Spelling isn't rocket science, Len :-)

I've worked WITH rocket scientists (and engineers) at
Rocketdyne Division of (then) Rockwell International
(now a Division of Boeing who purchased them a few
years ago).
As you flitted from job to job....

Advancing in salary and responsibility each time...

....so you say. That's really wonderful for you, Len. I'm sure that
none of the rest of us have actually had jobs where we've advanced in
salary and responsibility.


When you've had some experience in REAL wordsmithing as
an article-seller and editing, you come on back.

You seem to believe yourself the only person here who ever was paid for
writing or editing. We know from your frequent factual errors that
research isn't your thing. Thankfully, most magazines have good
proofreaders so your misspellings were likely kept to a minimum.

Nowhere in Title 47 C.F.R. is it stated that an AMATEUR
radio license grant makes YOU "superior" to anyone in
anything, regardless of license class.

It needn't say it there, Len. I have an amateur radio license; you have
no amateur radio license. In amateur radio, even if my ticket came in
yesterday's mail, I'm superior to you. Live with it.

So far in here, all you've done is to posture and post
(seemingly endlessly) about how "right" you are in
everything and how everyone who disagrees with you is
so terribly "wrong."

You needn't be terribly wrong, Len. You're usually just plain wrong.


Does that somehow make
your opinions about amateur radio policy better or superior
to those of anyone else, Len?

If I want to find out the correct spelling of the legal
name of a President of the United States, I can find it.
I don't need "other sources."

Perhaps you've found your niche! You can become superior in the correct
spelling of U.S. President names.


Besides - how do we know any of these "rocket scientist" claims
of yours are true? You're big on demanding "proof" of
all sorts of stuff, and rejecting people's claims. Why
should we accept your claims? Pictures and verbiage on
someone's website aren't "proof".

Contact the Personnel Department of Rocketdyne Division
of Boeing Aircraft in Canoga Park, CA.

Do you need their mailing address? If so, contact your
"other sources."

They aren't likely to provide any details of your employment, Len. You
haven't POSTED PROOF and I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't some sort
of Rocketdyne Imposter. How do we know that you're the SAME Len
Anderson who actually worked for Rocketdyne? How do we know that you
aren't a FAKE--a POSEUR????? :-) :-) :-)


I can name ALL of my employers from part-time during
high school onward, and have. Have you done the same?
No? Why not?

I can name all of the employers I've ever had--ever. I have done so in
the past but I'm not inclined to share the list with you.


Perhaps what really bothers you about K0HB is that
he has better stories, and tells them better, than you do.

I have no stories of "CW operating," Jimmie.

As they say in Espanol--Punto! You'll likely not be able to top any
such stories then, Leonard.

Never used morse code mode in over a half century,
haven't been required to in either military or
civilian occupations.

Precisely!

As to "telling them better," show your chops as a
PAID-by-others editor and wordsmith FIRST.

If I were Jim, I'd hold out until you substantiate your Rocketdyne
claims. :-) :-)

You are
so highly biased in favor of morse mode that you are
incapable of objectively critiquing any "story" for any
mass media publication other than some "CW organization."

It could easily be said that you are so biased against morse testing and
morse use (as evidenced by your whining about K0HB's tale of SUQ) that
you are incapable of objectivity.

Hans sent me a copy of his "Speed Key" credential from
the United States Navy. Do you have one of those?
Or do your "other sources" have it?

Do you have one, Len?

You were never in the USN or USNR.

Me neither. Were you in the Navy or Naval Reserve too?

You were never in
the Persian Gulf region.

Were you, Len? I've never been there.

You were never in the service
of the military of the United States.

You might be close to nailing him down now.

We (other than "other sources") don't know if you
ever did any radio communications in professional/commercial
radio other than AMATEUR. You are carefully ambiguous and
non-specific about that. Just like Dudly the Imposter.

I've been as specific as I could about certain aspects. Look where that
got me with you.

Go play with your AMATEUR radios. That will keep you
in the house and busy this Saturday night.

I took your post to heart, Len. I use my radio equipment to make a
number of contacts in the Stew Perry event, but I found time to post
here as well. What did you do?

Dave K8MN

wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
From: on Tues, Dec 13 2005 4:32 pm
Jim has tatoos?
I was imagining his performances in here to be the equivalent of
James Mitchum's creepy "preacher" in an old, scary black-and-white
film released in the 1950s.
Robert Mitchum. 1954. Night of the Hunter from the novel by Davis Grubb.
The author was from up the road in Moundsville. The story is set in
this area.

That character had L-O-V-E on one
hand, H-A-T-E on the other...liked to off folks that didn't
believe in him.
Believing in him had nothing to do with it. He killed prostitutes and
dancers because he thought they were evil and he killed widows for their
money. The guy wasn't even a real preacher.

Don't you get anything right?
Did they ever catch him, or is he still running around the hills of
Moundsville?
I can see how you'd become confused. It was a movie, Brian. You can
rest easy now.

Was he a ham preacher?
No, he was a ham salad sandwich.

You may now continue your red-hatted monkey routine. Perhaps the old
organ grinder will crank up another tune so you can dance for us.

Thanks, Dave. You can always be counted on to call names and ridicule
people (profile).

If you'd like to play games, asking about whether a fictional character
from a movie has been captured or whether he was a "ham preacher", I can
play it your way. If you play the little, red-hatted monkey, you'll be
treated as a little, red-hatted monkey.

Dave K8MN

KØHB wrote:
wrote

Do you?

Do you have a short memory? If so, scroll up a few messages for a refresher.

Beep beep
de Hans, K0HB

What exactly are you going on about?

KØHB wrote:
wrote


Hans doesn't believe in U.S. amateur radio being "self-
regulating?" Ach, zo!


This is amateur radio? I thought it was rec.amateur.tennis.policy! Silly me!

Ach, ptuey!

Beep beep
de Hans, K0HB

I hope this isn't an indication of how hams act on the air.

Do you think Steve would transmit "raped an old friend" in CW?

Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:19:28 GMT, Dave Heil wrote
in et:

wrote:
snip
part of the military that wasn't glamorous, didn't wear flashy
or cute uniforms, and bore the brunt of national defense as it
always has since 1776...with the casualty rates the highest of
any branch, from battlefields of Pennsylvania to the Persian
Gulf area of Dubya's rule.

The Signal Corps has the highest casualty rate, or did you mean the U.S.
Army?

If that's correct, then what about Len's statement that "it bore the
brunt of national defense as it always has since 1776"? The Signal
Corps did all that? I'm sure my dad would have made some comment to
that effect if he'd seen it at Utah Beach. He never said anything about
the Naval units rushing signalmen to the beach.

The Signal Corps. The first target of any combat unit is the guy (or
tank, amtrack, jeep, etc.) with the antennas. The second target is the
guy -next- to the guy with the antenna because he is usually an
officer.

What would be the odds of getting hit by a stray round if you were in a
different country than where the action was going on?

Is that something to brag about?


Yep. It takes some big, hairy balls to walk onto the battlefield
carrying a piece of equipment that will be the first thing the enemy
shoots at, especially when the radio is bulky and/or heavy enough to
limit your mobility. The casualty rate for radiomen in combat is even
higher than EOD.

Not if the fighting is in Korea and you happen to be in a big building
in Japan, Frank.

Dave K8MN

On 18 Dec 2005 14:04:25 -0800, wrote in
. com:

snip
In the Army the "front-line" (we called them just "line")
radio users were just ordinary infantry, artillery, or armor
troops who've had quickie courses in using their radios.

Those aren't Signal Corpsmen per se.


My bad. I thought they came from the same stock -- I guess that shows
how old I'm not :-0


Is that something to brag about?

Yep. It takes some big, hairy balls to walk onto the battlefield
carrying a piece of equipment that will be the first thing the enemy
shoots at, especially when the radio is bulky and/or heavy enough to
limit your mobility. The casualty rate for radiomen in combat is even
higher than EOD.

That used to be true but the paradigm has flipped over today.


Very true. Real sci-fi stuff they have these days. Won't be long and
every grunt will be equipped with a helmet-mounted sat-comm complete
with bio-telemetry and "black box" A/V recorders.







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On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 01:20:06 GMT, Dave Heil wrote
in . net:

Frank Gilliland wrote:
snip
Yep. It takes some big, hairy balls to walk onto the battlefield
carrying a piece of equipment that will be the first thing the enemy
shoots at, especially when the radio is bulky and/or heavy enough to
limit your mobility. The casualty rate for radiomen in combat is even
higher than EOD.

Not if the fighting is in Korea and you happen to be in a big building
in Japan, Frank.


I wouldn't know, Dave. I got my leg perforated in Beirut and I was
only packing a Simpson 260. Not much experience, I grant you. But
since that happened several months after most of 1/8's comm platoon
got wiped out by the barracks bombing, I really didn't have a chance
to get -their- opinion on the subject.

I take it that -you- have a different opinion?








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From: Frank Gilliland on Dec 18, 6:54 pm

On 18 Dec 2005 14:04:25 -0800, wrote in

snip

In the Army the "front-line" (we called them just "line")
radio users were just ordinary infantry, artillery, or armor
troops who've had quickie courses in using their radios.

Those aren't Signal Corpsmen per se.

My bad. I thought they came from the same stock -- I guess that shows
how old I'm not :-0

No problem. "All parts are interchangeable" in the land forces,
something that's been mentioned for decades...before I was in
and will be long after today. Soldiers are soldiers first,
specialists second.

USUALLY, but not always, the infantry radio ops are infantrymen
with some short training in their manpack radios. Signalmen
are found from Battalion level and up to Brigades, and do the
mass-communication stuff for Brigade through Division command.

Field radio equipment has been designed for wired-remote
control (many hundreds of feet away, as needed) of transmitters
for over a half century. Major reason being RDF *might* be
able to pinpoint an emitter and drop some nasty stuff on it.
The personnel at the control point won't necessarily be hit
so those are still survivable. If the comms equipment is
destroyed and no replacements are available, the signalmen
revert to their basic duty: Soldiering the infantry way.


That used to be true but the paradigm has flipped over today.

Very true. Real sci-fi stuff they have these days. Won't be long and
every grunt will be equipped with a helmet-mounted sat-comm complete
with bio-telemetry and "black box" A/V recorders.

Not quite. That stuff is PR material that's been out for
years. The Army tried out the "squad radio" concept in
Vietnam during the early 1970s. Didn't work out well and
that was generally abandoned for wholesale use on the line.
I don't know WHY it didn't work out since I've never been
involved directly with it, just the manpack-to-high-power-
vehicular-amp families of "regular" (in ham ideas) radios
and some other interesting DoD stuff. :-)

Back in 1990 the land forces had the AN/PSC-3 radio with
voice and data capability on the military aviation band,
three different antennas from whip to wire mesh parabolic
reflector. The data part had a "chiclet" keyboard and a
small LCD-like screen and messages could be typed in,
stored, sent at 1200 BPS on UHF, either to an airborne
radio relay or through military comm sats. Can't verify
if the data part could be encrypted, but today's PSC-7
can do that. The PSC-3 was used in unfriendly territory
during Desert Shield and none were compromised. Some old-
timers in here thought the military was still using
something like WW2 OSS HF sets with morse code during the
first Gulf War! :-)

The present-day survival radios (HT size) can cooperate
with the DME of TACAN to yield distance information and
their voice is both digitized and encryptable. Same size
as 20-year-old survival radio-beacons but have more
electronic features and better battery packs.

The AN/PRC-104 HF manpack transceiver (operational 1986,
will be replaced soon by an updated unit) by Hughes Ground
Systems has an automatic antenna tuner integral to the
manpack R/T. One can physically shorten the whip by
removing sections to cut down visibility and the antenna
tuner will compensate for the shorter sections. Won't be
quite as efficient as the full whip but it is less visible
on the ground. The lil 20 W PEP transmitter will shove as
much RF into the whip as it can without damaging itself.

While I haven't been with the Army units testing anything
in the last half-dozen years, I can see that the "command
track" concept (actually a command vehicle, a Humvee now
more than a Bradley tracked vehicle) is still strong. That
lends itself to the "many antennas" visibility for un-
friendlies who have some smarts on sorting out targets.
With two NVIS whips (bent-over long ones) and a couple
VHF, UHF antennas on a Humvee, those stand out pretty well
from the ordinary gunner-style Humvee. There are "mini-
huts" for making up a Humvee into a radio command vehicle
holding lots of radios inside...similar to the full-size
hut on a deuce and a half flatbed.

Armor units have the flashy toys now with a couple dynamic
(on the move) automatic positioning location and reporting
systems still undergoing more field testing. [why, I don't
know, they were first out in the field a decade ago]
Artillery can confirm its position super-accurately with
military-mode GPS in the little HT-size "plugger" or
AN/PSN-11 receiver. The same plugger can connect to any
SINCGARS radio to update its calendar clock for good
networking in FHSS mode; GPS provides a super-accurate
time base. Plugger was in use during Desert Storm.

I haven't followed the progress of the SIDs (Seismic
Intrusion Device) that first saw service in later years
of the SE Asia Live-Fire exercise. My RCA division in
Van Nuys did the casing and geophone amplifier-filter-
processor, me doing the final whip design desired to be
a simple wire rather than the original OD tape style.
Buryable unit intended for Vietnam but that war ended
early without full deployment. It could distinguish
between two-footed and four-footed creatures and report
back (by coded radio signal) detection of the two-
footed variety. In the three decades since there must
have been improvement in that area. shrug

There's more stuff coming along with the first signs of
in SIGNAL magazine published by AFCEA along with Defense
Industry Newsletter.

The latest is an RF psycho weapon using ultra-wideband
microwave stuff to scare-shock-disturb unfriendlies at a
distance. First operational test contract was awarded
a couple months ago. While it uses radio, it might not
be handled by signalmen at all, probably not by artillery
types either. Psy-war units? :-)

The first NODs (Night Observation Devices) were
operational during the latter half of the 1960s and
used in Vietnam. Too many were stolen/captured with
the USSR making their own versions. Now those "Buck
Rogers" devices can be bought at sports stores as
a regular consumer electronics product. shrug

On 19 Dec 2005 10:38:46 -0800, wrote in
. com:

From: Frank Gilliland on Dec 18, 6:54 pm
snip
Very true. Real sci-fi stuff they have these days. Won't be long and
every grunt will be equipped with a helmet-mounted sat-comm complete
with bio-telemetry and "black box" A/V recorders.

Not quite. That stuff is PR material that's been out for
years. The Army tried out the "squad radio" concept in
Vietnam during the early 1970s. Didn't work out well and
that was generally abandoned for wholesale use on the line.
I don't know WHY it didn't work out since I've never been
involved directly with it, just the manpack-to-high-power-
vehicular-amp families of "regular" (in ham ideas) radios
and some other interesting DoD stuff. :-)


One version of the "squad radio" was the PRC-68, a cool little VHF-lo
rig. The problem was the radio wasn't built very well (mic screen kept
falling off, battery boxes dented easily, antennas broke, etc), and
the batteries were expensive, didn't last very long, and weren't
compatible with any commercial equivalent.


snip
The AN/PRC-104 HF manpack transceiver (operational 1986,
will be replaced soon by an updated unit) by Hughes Ground
Systems has an automatic antenna tuner integral to the
manpack R/T. One can physically shorten the whip by
removing sections to cut down visibility and the antenna
tuner will compensate for the shorter sections. Won't be
quite as efficient as the full whip but it is less visible
on the ground. The lil 20 W PEP transmitter will shove as
much RF into the whip as it can without damaging itself.


We had the PRC-104 in the early '80s; the RT was used as the exciter
for the MRC-109/110 (400/1000W) jeep radios. Mechanical push-button
tuning from 2-30 MHz. I still want one.


snip
The latest is an RF psycho weapon using ultra-wideband
microwave stuff to scare-shock-disturb unfriendlies at a
distance. First operational test contract was awarded
a couple months ago. While it uses radio, it might not
be handled by signalmen at all, probably not by artillery
types either. Psy-war units? :-)


I heard about that a couple years ago. Not a psych weapon -- it causes
significant "discomfort" in the eyes and skin at a distance. It is/was
intended for domestic purposes (i.e, riot control -- make sure to wear
your aluminum-foil hat to the upcoming anti-war rallies).


The first NODs (Night Observation Devices) were
operational during the latter half of the 1960s and
used in Vietnam. Too many were stolen/captured with
the USSR making their own versions. Now those "Buck
Rogers" devices can be bought at sports stores as
a regular consumer electronics product. shrug


Yeah, I have a Soviet unit that takes 2 AA batteries. Hmmmm.....








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