On 31 Dec 2005 10:46:17 -0800, wrote in
.com:


Frank Gilliland wrote:
On 31 Dec 2005 05:52:25 -0800, wrote in
.com:

KØHB wrote:
wrote

Basic: 3525-3625 and 3900-4000
Intermediate: 3525-3750 and 3850-4000
Full: entire band

I missed where you explained why the bands needed to be divided by class.

It's to serve as an upgrade incentive. Not everyone aspires to run high
power.


So what you're -really- talking about are low-power and a high-power
license classes?

No.

If you look at K0HB's license-structure idea, the main (in fact the
*only* difference in operating privileges between his Class A and Class
B licenses is the power allowed.

Class A gets full 1500 W

Class B gets 50 W

Hans' idea is that by limiting Class B to 50 W, the RF exposure
questions can be eliminated,
or at least greatly reduced. But the fact is that 50 W can still be an
RF exposure hazard on some frequencies (UHF in particular) if a high
gain antenna is used.

Deciding that the power level of 50 W is acceptable for Class B, but
100 W is not, is just
a matter of judgement. It's the same kind of judgement as saying that
3500-3525 kHz is not allowed for all license classes.


Screw it..... one license, no "classes", no "learner's permit". Anyone
who is sincerely interested in the hobby will learn the crap and get
their license, code or no code, including me. If that means fewer hams
then so be it -- only the ARRL cares about increasing the number of
hams. But even then, the ARRL might be suprised since the time spent
on studying the different classes and priveleges will be better spent
learning theory, communications and safety. Quality, not quantity.

And that's my final answer.






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wrote:
From: on Dec 30, 5:56 pm

wrote:

Reposted and updated slightly:

1) Three classes of license: Basic, Intermediate, Full (change the
names if you don't like them - Third, Second, First, Novice,
General, Extra, whatever)

Brian, the best Jimmie can come up with is just warmed-over
EXISTING regulations with a slightly different bit of
cosmetic changing.

Maybe Jim didn't get any mental stimulation prior to age five.

Note: There are only THREE license classes granted NOW.

Precisely the number of license classes that Jim advocates!

2) HF/MF bands split into subbands by mode and split again by
license class. Some bands (30 meters) may be split by mode only.
Bottom of each band is CW only, middle is CW/digital, top is
CW/phone/image. Percentage division about 20%/30%/50% (varies with
band). "Digital" includes digital voice modes if bandwidth under
1 kHz.

Farf. There's BANDPLANS now, splitting "the bands" by mode
AND class.

Ghettos. Reminds me of some European social engineering of the 30's.

3) "Basic" license test is simple 20-25 question exam on regs,
procedures, and safety. Very little technical and RF exposure


4) "Intermediate" license test is more complex 50-60 question exam
on regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Intermediates
get 300-400 watts on all bands, all modes. Intermediates can be

5) "Full" license test is quite complex 100-120 question exam on
regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Mostly technical,

More Farf. Cosmetic changes to classes that exist NOW.

Quitefine advocates Quitecomplex questions. "We've got a bleeder!"

6) All licenses are 10 year and fully renewable/modifiable. No
age requirements or limits.

NO change at all. Status quo-ism.

All we need now is no enforcement and it could be the 70's and 80's all
over again.

7) Basics have six-character calls, Intermediates have five- or
six-character calls, and Fulls have four-, five-, or
six-character calls. Nobody has to give up an existing callsign.

Be absolutely SURE that the lowest class is readily identifiable
as the LOWEST one. Tsk, can't have those nasty "beginners"
messing up the playground!


8) Separate 30-35 question test for VE qualification, open to
Intermediates and Fulls, which allows them to be VEs. Existing
VEs are grandfathered.

Oh my, something NEW! "Unbeliegable," said Arte Johnson.

So, "what was WRONG with the present system" that it needs
this spay-shull "test" to proctor a license exam...with the
answers readily available to them and NO need to make any
decisions such as on schematics or essay questions?

Geez, privatization in testing has been going on a LONG
time without any specific "testing of the VEs."

Odd, but the General could proctor Technician exams, and the Advanced
could proctor General exams. The Extra Exam had loads of VE questions,
the General and Advanced had none.

As far as I'm concerned, since the VEC's are already disregarding FCC
rules, we can dispense with the Extra Exam altogether and let the VEC's
qualify "thier" examiners without any spay-shull FCC exam.

End result is a system that is easy to get into (Basic is
envisioned as a 21st century version of the Novice) and has
reasonable but meaningful steps to reach full privileges.

The Novice class was a numbers failure. That's apparent
to most folks other than Jimmie.

It did give us a bunch of Technicians (General incognito) who couldn't
do 13WPM.

With a ONE-class license plus the ONCE-only "entry" license
it is EASIER than the above regurgitated existing system.

It's easier for the FCC to maintain, and it's all that is necessary.

WHY is there a "privilege" system at all NOW? To keep "the
bands" free of "interlopers" that mess up the olde-tymers'
operations with "extraneous signals?"

That hurts my gall bladder to hear you say that.

Testing matches the privs granted.

It should, there is NO real change from the existing system.

Which it what needs changing.

Power levels are set about
one S-unit apart. Nobody loses any privileges. There are only
three license classes and four written tests, so FCC doesn't
have more work.

I N C O R R E C T !

The FCC has to ADDITIOMALLY TEST Volunteer Examiners. More
work for them. But, as in Latin ("who watches the watchers?")
who will test the VE applicants? Other VEs? Not unless they
have ALREADY been tested...which leads to an impossible
condition.

Division by zero?

What's with this "power level" per "class" thing, anyway?

If that were meaningful, there would be FCC field teams out
there measuring field strengths and knocking on doors, etc.
Obviously there aren't and any existing "RF power output"
maximums in amateur radio operate on the honor system.
Ain't no extensive "RF power output" checking being done.

Maybe Jim is an ARRL Official Observer, has a mobile van with precision
measurement equipment on board...

73 de Jim, N2EY

QP contains 10,000 questions. You take a test, 1 question at a time.
Questions selected at random. You keep going til you miss one. No
retakes, no upgrades. Each right question earns 10Hz of spectrum, your
choice of frequency, but it must be made at the exam session. That is
your lifetime allotment.

HAR! :-)

Har? I was serious.

------

Well, since Jimmie didn't come up with anything "new" other
than doing a Max Factor Thing with the existing regulations
(plus the NEW test for VEs), I'll just remind everyone of what
is in the regulations NOW...and has been since at least 1995:
The FCC states that each written test element Question Pool
must contain a MINIMUM of 10 times the number of required
questions.

There is NO maximum on the Question Pool. [I don't think there
ever was one] It's all up to the VE QPC on how many it wants
to generate and distribute. Make it 20 times, 30 times, 50,
even a 100 times the minimum in the QP...that will knock down
all those charges of "memorization."

Yawn.

Nappy Hoo Year!



Happy Happy

KØHB wrote:
"Frank Gilliland" wrote


So what you're -really- talking about are low-power and a high-power
license classes?


Same like now, only more so.......

Three power levels....

Three frequency sets....

Longer clunkier calls for lower grades....

Not interested.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:23:07 -0800, Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

snip


BTW, I found the FCC regs the 1940 ARRL handbook. The only significant
difference between Class A and Classes B & C was that Class A had the
additional privilege of using A3 on 3.9-4.0 and 14.150-14.250 MHz.
That's about it. Classes B & C were identical in priveliges; the only
distinction was that Class C had looser requirements for testing
purposes to accomodate military or CCC personel, people with
disabilities or living in remote geographic locations, etc.


Oh yeah..... if anyone wants a scan of an ad for the Hallicrafter's
"Skyrider Diversity" let me know. Awesome looking radio!








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Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:23:07 -0800, Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

snip


BTW, I found the FCC regs the 1940 ARRL handbook. The only significant
difference between Class A and Classes B & C was that Class A had the
additional privilege of using A3 on 3.9-4.0 and 14.150-14.250 MHz.
That's about it. Classes B & C were identical in priveliges; the only
distinction was that Class C had looser requirements for testing
purposes to accomodate military or CCC personel, people with
disabilities or living in remote geographic locations, etc.
just what is A3 beyond I suspect being a mode?


Oh yeah..... if anyone wants a scan of an ad for the Hallicrafter's
"Skyrider Diversity" let me know. Awesome looking radio!








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wrote:
Frank Gilliland wrote:
On 31 Dec 2005 05:52:25 -0800, wrote in
.com:

KØHB wrote:
wrote

Basic: 3525-3625 and 3900-4000
Intermediate: 3525-3750 and 3850-4000
Full: entire band

I missed where you explained why the bands needed to be divided by class.

It's to serve as an upgrade incentive. Not everyone aspires to run high
power.


So what you're -really- talking about are low-power and a high-power
license classes?

No.

If you look at K0HB's license-structure idea, the main (in fact the
*only* difference in operating privileges between his Class A and Class
B licenses is the power allowed.

Class A gets full 1500 W

Class B gets 50 W

Hans' idea is that by limiting Class B to 50 W, the RF exposure
questions can be eliminated,
or at least greatly reduced. But the fact is that 50 W can still be an
RF exposure hazard on some frequencies (UHF in particular) if a high
gain antenna is used.

ERP.

Deciding that the power level of 50 W is acceptable for Class B, but
100 W is not, is just
a matter of judgement.

No, it's not. The word you're looking for is "arbitrary" and Hans
presented anything but arbitrary reasons for such a license.

Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:23:07 -0800, Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

snip

BTW, I found the FCC regs the 1940 ARRL handbook. The only significant
difference between Class A and Classes B & C was that Class A had the
additional privilege of using A3 on 3.9-4.0 and 14.150-14.250 MHz.
That's about it.

That's right.

But you have to understand "the rest of the story"...

In 1940, the HF/MF amateur bands in the US were 160, 80/75, 40, 20 and
10 meters.

30, 17, 15, and 12 meters were not allocated to amateurs.

On top of that, the 40 meter band was all-Morse Code. No 'phone allowed
at all.

So a Class B or C amateur's 'phone options were 160 meters, 10 meters,
and
VHF/UHF (5 meters, 2-1/2 meters, 1-1/4 meters....)

Classes B & C were identical in priveliges; the only
distinction was that Class C had looser requirements for testing
purposes to accomodate military or CCC personel, people with
disabilities or living in remote geographic locations, etc.

Yep - a Class C was just a Class B given by mail. A volunteer examiner
gave the code test and proctored the written test (but FCC marked the
written test).

However, again there's "the rest of the story":

Class C was issued conditionally. If the holder of a Class C license
moved
to within the required distance of an FCC exam point, left the military
or CCC,
or recovered from the disability, s/he had 90 days to be retested by
FCC - or
lose the license.

Class A testing was only available from an FCC examiner or certain
specially-designated FCC representatives.

Class A also required at least one year experience as a Class B or C

If a Class C ham went for the Class A license, s/he first had to retake
and pass the Class B exam (code and written) at an FCC exam session
before being allowed to try the Class A.

---

The "ABC" system was in place from 1933 to 1951, including WW2.
(Although
FCC suspended all amateur station licenses during WW2, they still
conducted
operator license test sessions, and you could get an amateur radio
license all
through the war. There just weren't any legal amateur radio stations
for you to
operate).

--

A piece of amateur radio history that few recall nowadays is how the
ABC
system came to be replaced by the
Novice/Technician/General/Conditional/Advanced/Extra
system in 1951. That 1951 multiclass system is the basis of the current
license system.

Oh yeah..... if anyone wants a scan of an ad for the Hallicrafter's
"Skyrider Diversity" let me know. Awesome looking radio!

Awesome price, too!

wrote:
Frank Gilliland wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:23:07 -0800, Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

snip

BTW, I found the FCC regs the 1940 ARRL handbook. The only significant
difference between Class A and Classes B & C was that Class A had the
additional privilege of using A3 on 3.9-4.0 and 14.150-14.250 MHz.
That's about it.

That's right.

But you have to understand "the rest of the story"...
no he does not need another of your mutli page rants on the anceint
history

From: on Sat, Dec 31 2005 3:29 pm


wrote:
From: on Dec 30, 5:56 pm
wrote:

Reposted and updated slightly:

1) Three classes of license: Basic, Intermediate, Full (change the
names if you don't like them - Third, Second, First, Novice,
General, Extra, whatever)

Brian, the best Jimmie can come up with is just warmed-over
EXISTING regulations with a slightly different bit of
cosmetic changing.

Maybe Jim didn't get any mental stimulation prior to age five.

Oh, I think he was "motivated" to speak Morse Code as early
as that...


Note: There are only THREE license classes granted NOW.

Precisely the number of license classes that Jim advocates!

Amazing, isn't it? :-)


2) HF/MF bands split into subbands by mode and split again by
license class. Some bands (30 meters) may be split by mode only.
Bottom of each band is CW only, middle is CW/digital, top is
CW/phone/image. Percentage division about 20%/30%/50% (varies with
band). "Digital" includes digital voice modes if bandwidth under
1 kHz.

Farf. There's BANDPLANS now, splitting "the bands" by mode
AND class.

Ghettos. Reminds me of some European social engineering of the 30's.

Good grief, we CAN'T speak like that in here!

The "lower end" of "the bands" MUST be kept open for the
PRIVELEGED CLASS to beep in total comfort. So "it has always
been and so shall it always be..."


3) "Basic" license test is simple 20-25 question exam on regs,
procedures, and safety. Very little technical and RF exposure


4) "Intermediate" license test is more complex 50-60 question exam
on regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Intermediates
get 300-400 watts on all bands, all modes. Intermediates can be

5) "Full" license test is quite complex 100-120 question exam on
regs, procedures, safety and technical stuff. Mostly technical,

More Farf. Cosmetic changes to classes that exist NOW.

Quitefine advocates Quitecomplex questions. "We've got a bleeder!"

In amateurspeak, he's got a "ham-morage!"


6) All licenses are 10 year and fully renewable/modifiable. No
age requirements or limits.

NO change at all. Status quo-ism.

All we need now is no enforcement and it could be the 70's and 80's all
over again.

Whatever. Except for the following, Jimmie's "idea" is all
just warmed-over deja vu.

Right now U.S. amateurs have licenses of 10 year periods, are
renewable/modifiable, and there are NO age requirements. Item
(6) on Jimmie's list is just a repeat of what already exists.


8) Separate 30-35 question test for VE qualification, open to
Intermediates and Fulls, which allows them to be VEs. Existing
VEs are grandfathered.

Oh my, something NEW! "Unbeliegable," said Arte Johnson.

So, "what was WRONG with the present system" that it needs
this spay-shull "test" to proctor a license exam...with the
answers readily available to them and NO need to make any
decisions such as on schematics or essay questions?

Geez, privatization in testing has been going on a LONG
time without any specific "testing of the VEs."

Odd, but the General could proctor Technician exams, and the Advanced
could proctor General exams. The Extra Exam had loads of VE questions,
the General and Advanced had none.

As far as I'm concerned, since the VEC's are already disregarding FCC
rules, we can dispense with the Extra Exam altogether and let the VEC's
qualify "thier" examiners without any spay-shull FCC exam.

They do that anyway...


End result is a system that is easy to get into (Basic is
envisioned as a 21st century version of the Novice) and has
reasonable but meaningful steps to reach full privileges.

The Novice class was a numbers failure. That's apparent
to most folks other than Jimmie.

It did give us a bunch of Technicians (General incognito) who couldn't
do 13WPM.

As far as I'm concerned, the "NEED" to do morse code at any
rate was an arbitrary, unneccessary regulation back in the
60s. Ancient morsemen didn't think so and pressured the
government to keep that "vital" necessity (or whatever they
called it before Homeland Security needed morse for "the war
on terror). So the morse code test stayed in.


With a ONE-class license plus the ONCE-only "entry" license
it is EASIER than the above regurgitated existing system.

It's easier for the FCC to maintain, and it's all that is necessary.

True enough, but it HURTS the spay-shull "high class" hams
who NEED that super-extra-special federal certificate to
show how good they are (above others of "lesser" rank).


WHY is there a "privilege" system at all NOW? To keep "the
bands" free of "interlopers" that mess up the olde-tymers'
operations with "extraneous signals?"

That hurts my gall bladder to hear you say that.

Sorry about that, chief.

[Maxwell Smart phrase, Hans, has nothing to do with USN]


Testing matches the privs granted.

It should, there is NO real change from the existing system.

Which it what needs changing.

A long time ago. Bad case of diaper rash in regs now...


The FCC has to ADDITIOMALLY TEST Volunteer Examiners. More
work for them. But, as in Latin ("who watches the watchers?")
who will test the VE applicants? Other VEs? Not unless they
have ALREADY been tested...which leads to an impossible
condition.

Division by zero?

Program crash!


What's with this "power level" per "class" thing, anyway?

If that were meaningful, there would be FCC field teams out
there measuring field strengths and knocking on doors, etc.
Obviously there aren't and any existing "RF power output"
maximums in amateur radio operate on the honor system.
Ain't no extensive "RF power output" checking being done.

Maybe Jim is an ARRL Official Observer, has a mobile van with precision
measurement equipment on board...

...in which case he totally neglected that "QRP" rig for sale
on E-bay for $9,500! :-)

[the one "used on 80m" and having that large air exhaust
ducting to carry off excess heat...]


QP contains 10,000 questions. You take a test, 1 question at a time.
Questions selected at random. You keep going til you miss one. No
retakes, no upgrades. Each right question earns 10Hz of spectrum, your
choice of frequency, but it must be made at the exam session. That is
your lifetime allotment.

HAR! :-)

Har? I was serious.

Sorry I am. Well, in retrospect, it was in the same spirit as
Jimmie's regurgitated regulation set...

Yappy New Hear!

wrote:
From: on Sat, Dec 31 2005 3:29 pm


wrote:
From: on Dec 30, 5:56 pm
wrote:
cut

Ghettos. Reminds me of some European social engineering of the 30's.

Good grief, we CAN'T speak like that in here!

The "lower end" of "the bands" MUST be kept open for the
PRIVELEGED CLASS to beep in total comfort. So "it has always
been and so shall it always be..."

indeed the ARRL tried to pander to people Jim with code for extra class
proposal

cut

It did give us a bunch of Technicians (General incognito) who couldn't
do 13WPM.

As far as I'm concerned, the "NEED" to do morse code at any
rate was an arbitrary, unneccessary regulation back in the
60s. Ancient morsemen didn't think so and pressured the
government to keep that "vital" necessity (or whatever they
called it before Homeland Security needed morse for "the war
on terror). So the morse code test stayed in.

after the origial reason to know morse was stated as the need for the
govt to be able to warn Ham off their trnasmsittion but even that
"need" was bogus after if the Voice ham could hear the Morse signal and
could not understand it then he could just qsy somewhere else if he did
not hear the morse signal it not matter if he could understand it or
not

We could have done away with Morse Code tsts as early as the first AM
voice set, might have been a bit choatic at first, but it have been
done logicaly have done away when ever there was first voice
cut