Hi Dave,

The photo just helps explain how it works, you still have the problem of
fixing the open primary of the "transformer". To fix it you will need
to either have the primary rewound if the break is inside the winding,
or if you are lucky the wire may simply be broken where it attaches to
one of the terminal lugs and you may be able to reattach it.


Regards,

John Byrns


In article ,
"Dave Burson" wrote:

The only PITA is that I've left the chassis at the house of a friend who has
a signal generator (and who knows how to use it). I'll try to get over
there tomorrow. If I can't get a meaningful photo, I can at least sketch
the details. Thanks for the continued interest.

Dave


"Randy or Sherry Guttery" wrote in message
news:Agnai.22480$dy1.6263@bigfe9...
John Byrns wrote:

Hi Dave,

Thanks for posting the photo, it makes clear that all three windings are
on the center leg of an E-core unlike the General Electric circuit.

I don't know John, there is something sticking out on both the left and
right ends - like there were a very few winding on each of the outer
legs - normally the shell encloses everything - in this one - there is
something definitely sticking out... or at least it looks like it - Dave -
I know it'd probably be a PITA - but is would it be too much to ask to try
and get a side shot (from north or south as this photo is oriented)?

best regards...
--
randy guttery

A Tender Tale - a page dedicated to those Ships and Crews
so vital to the United States Silent Service:
http://tendertale.com

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Randy or Sherry Guttery wrote:

Ken wrote:

So, what is the design method for a transformer that saturates easily?

Without getting into a bunch of formulae, etc. (which I'd probably screw
up anyway)... a couple of factors - 1) absolute minimum core to couple
the windings - i.e. magnetically "starved". 2) no gaps in the core - let
the DC current's field circulate well - such that it "interferes" with
the AC field. The core can only hold so much flux - if DC is "pushing"
the field one way -- the AC (when it opposes) is only going to "reduce"
it - not reverse it - (or not fully reverse it) so that the coupling
becomes very inefficient. If you look at most output transformers
designed for single-ended use - they have a gap in the core somewhere.
Obviously - such a gap would not be appropriate for a saturable reactor.

And that sets me pondering again whether the primary "effect" is bucking
or just reactance... Let's say for the moment that bucking is not the
primary mode - and reactance is. Then why the reversed phasing (if
bucking isn't a factor)?

Well - as I just noted - in a true saturable reactor - the DC flux
"overwhelms" the AC flux. Since the AC and DC are additive half the
time - and subtractive half the time - the control isn't going to be
symmetrical. This is overcome in "the real world" by twin reactors -
with the DC "reversed" through one (compared to the other). This way
the "offset" in one reactor is "countered" by the other --- and then
they "switch roles" when the AC reverses polarity. If you look at the
circuit here - (and again - for discussion sake totally ignore bucking)
- the AC is "reversed" all the time at one end - or the other of the
primary -- as the two coils are phase reversed.

Back to saturable reactor theory - when the DC control winding drives
the core into saturation - the reactance in the AC winding drops
dramatically. That being the case with this circuit - then the two
windings would 1) loose coupling so bucking is no longer a factor - and
2) have virtually no reactance in series with the bulb. Then by 1/2 the
AC "reactance winding" reversed - both halves would contribute their
part to the overall source impedance - providing better symmetry.

Now I'm not so sure that pure reactance doesn't play a larger role than
originally thought... That perhaps control is indeed more reactance -
and "bucking" is just a happy "bonus" to the equation...

Is one or the other really necessarily a "bonus", don't they work in
opposite directions assuming the two windings are connected in a
"bucking" configuration? Of course we don't actually know they are
really connected in a "bucking" configuration, we are just speculating
they are because of the way the schematic is drawn.

without taking some measurements (esp. being able to Un-reverse phase
the two windings) - it's hard to guess...

I'm glad you are the one working all this out, I would like to see more
information on the construction of the transformer and the disposition
of the windings before speculating too much. If the transformer is of
open frame construction and is not potted, the OP should be able to
easily determine if an E-core is used and if all the windings are on the
center leg?


Aw, c'mon guys, don't you understand push-pull?

I have never seen the specific radio in question, but the general idea is a
three-legged E-core, DC winding on the center, ac windings on the outer
legs. AC windings are "in-phase." A far as the AC is concerned the AC coils
are in (magnetic) series; as far as the DC coil is concerned they are in
(magnetic) parallel, to use the electrical analogy. Because the AC field
from both coils is equal and opposite, the AC signal is not induced into the
DC coil, but the DC field goes ( in opposing directions) through both legs
of the AC circuit, saturating them both as the current increases.

John Byrns wrote:

And I am glad you caught the two outer leg windings on Dave's
transformer that I missed, with that input it all makes sense now.

Note that in this kind of magnetic amplifier, the fluxes from the
reactance windings must cancel through the control winding. The reason
is that the control winding needs a lot of turns to make enough flux to
saturate the core with a small amount of current. On the other hand, the
reactance windings carry a lot of current, so they must have fewer
turns. Consider that this is a recipe for a transformer that puts high
voltage AC on the control winding unless the fluxes cancel there...

--
John Doty, Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
--
Specialization is for robots.

John Byrns wrote:

Sorry I haven't had a chance to look at the links you posted yet.

Those will explain "bucking" with regards to saturated reactors...

As far as "basic" operation - the use of the buffer tube isolates - wait
a minute - didn't I do this once already? Never mind.

best regards...
--
randy guttery

A Tender Tale - a page dedicated to those Ships and Crews
so vital to the United States Silent Service:
http://tendertale.com

Randy or Sherry Guttery wrote:

As far as "basic" operation - the use of the buffer tube isolates
...

.... and that's important sometimes because it's hard to get good enough
balance between the reactance windings to prevent troublesome coupling
of the output voltage into the control winding.

--
John Doty, Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
--
Specialization is for robots.

In article ,
John Doty wrote:

John Byrns wrote:

And I am glad you caught the two outer leg windings on Dave's
transformer that I missed, with that input it all makes sense now.

Note that in this kind of magnetic amplifier, the fluxes from the
reactance windings must cancel through the control winding. The reason
is that the control winding needs a lot of turns to make enough flux to
saturate the core with a small amount of current. On the other hand, the
reactance windings carry a lot of current, so they must have fewer
turns. Consider that this is a recipe for a transformer that puts high
voltage AC on the control winding unless the fluxes cancel there...

Yes, I understand that, in my first post on the subject I had proposed
that the S-W control reactor might have the two "secondary" windings
arranged on the two outer legs of the core so that it would operate as
you describe. Somehow I got the mistaken impression that Randy thought
all three windings were on the central leg of the core, which lead to me
thinking that all the windings were on the central leg when I first saw
the photograph, which doesn't clearly show the windings on the outer
legs because of the angle of the view. With the knowledge that the
secondaries are indeed wound on the outer legs, as I had originally
proposed, the mystery of its operation disappears, and Neil has even
provided a possible explanation for the usefulness of having the lamp
dim as the signal gets stronger.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

In article ,
Randy or Sherry Guttery wrote:

John Byrns wrote:

Sorry I haven't had a chance to look at the links you posted yet.

Those will explain "bucking" with regards to saturated reactors...

No need to bother, I already understand that as I think I stated in a
previous post, that's why I suggested in my first post in this thread
that perhaps the "two "secondaries" were wound on the two outer legs of
the E-core. This whole discussion has been an unfortunate result of my
misunderstanding what physical construction you were taking about,
somehow I got the impression from your first post that you were
describing a reactor where all three windings were on the central leg of
the E-core, when you didn't respond to the suggestion in my first post
that perhaps the "secondaries" were on the outer legs of the core, the
misunderstanding was cemented in my mind. In a later post where I
reported on the GE E-155 circuit I discovered, which did work the way I
speculated, you did respond with "Not news - this would be common for a
saturable reactor." I took that comment as a general comment about
saturable reactors, specifically not applying to the S-W reactor.
Looking at it again I assume this may have been another
misinterpretation on my part and although you didn't explicitly say so
you were actually talking specifically about the S-W reactor there.

I think we are finally on the same page and now that I understand that
you weren't talking about a reactor with all three windings on the
central leg, if I were to go back and read all of your posts in that
light I would probably find that they make perfect sense.

As far as "basic" operation - the use of the buffer tube isolates - wait
a minute - didn't I do this once already? Never mind.

Exactly, the use of a separate "buffer" tube is not necessary to the
operation of the circuit, it is merely an elaboration of the circuit,
perhaps to increase the tube count as was popular at the time.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

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