...

^ A GMRS radio, even the cheapy ones in the blister
^ packs, will put out more power than legally allowed ...

The radios I've looked at have two power settings and the instructions
explain that the higher power setting can only be used with a license. I
don't thing the FCC would certify them otherwise.

^ Because of this, you need the license, even to transmi
^ of the "FRS channels".

Only if you use the higher power setting.

The FCC should not have permitted the two bands combined in one radio. They
must've known that violations would be more common than not and licenses
would be few. My guess us that they intend to eventually combine GMRS and FRS
as FRS and omit the licensing requirement. Similar to what happened with the
HF CB band.

Frank

"Frank" wrote in message
news:01c34f6c$325688a0$0125250a@lktnlsvecoydbmks.. .

...

^ A GMRS radio, even the cheapy ones in the blister
^ packs, will put out more power than legally allowed ...

The radios I've looked at have two power settings and the instructions
explain that the higher power setting can only be used with a license. I
don't thing the FCC would certify them otherwise.

The ones I've got won't take the 'hi' power setting for the FRS
channels. They're crap, anyway. I finally bit the bullet and bought a _real_
GMRS radio, Icom F21GM. Thing cost nearly as much as my 2-meter mobile
rig...




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Robert ...

^ I finally bit the bullet and bought a _real_
^ GMRS radio, Icom F21GM. Thing cost nearly as
^ much as my 2-meter mobile rig...

I don't know how much two-meter radios go for and I couldn't locate any
pricing information on Icom's web site. What's the price of the Icom F21GM?

Frank

"Frank" wrote in message
news:01c3505c$663357c0$0125250a@dlaclbmmncgerhrv.. .
Robert ...

^ I finally bit the bullet and bought a _real_
^ GMRS radio, Icom F21GM. Thing cost nearly as
^ much as my 2-meter mobile rig...

I don't know how much two-meter radios go for and I couldn't locate any
pricing information on Icom's web site. What's the price of the Icom
F21GM?

Best deal I found was at AES for 149.95 - I think you might find it
now for $139. My 2-meter is the V8000 w/75 watts, which I got for 169.95
during the big rebate sale last month Icom had. (Actually, it's an ongoing
thing - HF radios are marked down now, I think.)

Bear in mind the F21 is a real radio, even has repeater off-sets.
Very substantial-feeling radio (my limited experience with Icom thus far is
making me as fond of them as I am of Uniden. I just wish the programming was
a simple as Uniden's!)





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"Frank" wrote in message
news:01c34f6c$325688a0$0125250a@lktnlsvecoydbmks.. .

...

^ A GMRS radio, even the cheapy ones in the blister
^ packs, will put out more power than legally allowed ...

The radios I've looked at have two power settings and the instructions
explain that the higher power setting can only be used with a license. I
don't thing the FCC would certify them otherwise.


The radios cannot be used as FRS because they are _capable_ of being
operated at a higher power setting, which is a clear violation of the rules
set out for FRS. Because of this the operator MUST have a license, even if
they are using the lower power setting.

^ Because of this, you need the license, even to transmi
^ of the "FRS channels".

Only if you use the higher power setting.

The FCC should not have permitted the two bands combined in one radio.
They
must've known that violations would be more common than not and licenses
would be few. My guess us that they intend to eventually combine GMRS and
FRS
as FRS and omit the licensing requirement. Similar to what happened with
the
HF CB band.

See, that's where everyone is confused. They bands are NOT combined. The
radios only have a _portion_ of the FRS band, not the whole thing. The ONLY
reason they have a portion is because the two bands happen to overlap each
other, as set forth by the FCC rules. Like I said above, the radios can not
be used without a license because they do not comply with the rules set
forth for FRS radios which are license free. They do, however, comply with
the rules set forth for GMRS, which does require a license...

PH

PowerHouse CB & Scanner ...
^ The radios cannot be used as FRS because they are
^ _capable_ of being operated at a higher power setting,
^ which is a clear violation of the rules set out for FRS.

I don't recall seeing that particular rule. Can you cite it?

The FCC must approve the owner's manual for a radio before that model radio
can be sold. GMRS/FRS radios are being sold with owner's manuals that state
that a license is not required under certain usage conditions. Below is from
the BellSouth GMRS/FRS Model 2290 Owner's Manual Installation and Operating
Instructions:

The GMRS/FRS COMMUNICATOR operates on licensed
GMRS/FRS channels 1 - 7, and GMRS channels 15 - 22
(see below regarding licensing information), and
in a license-free band on the FRS channels 8 - 14
(no FCC license is needed for its operation).
[(C)2002 BellSouth Corporation]

FCC Licensing Information
Channels 1 thru 7 transmit on GMRS/FRS frequencies.
Channels 8 thru 14 transmit on FRS frequencies.
Channels 15 thru 22 transmit on GMRS frequencies.
Operation on GMRS/FRS and GMRS frequencies require
a license from the Federal Communications Commission
(FCC).
[(C)2002 BellSouth Corporation]


Frank:
^ The FCC should not have permitted the two bands
^ combined in one radio.

^ See, that's where everyone is confused. They bands are
^ NOT combined.

The simplex frequencies for both the GMRS and FRS bands are combined into my
GMRS/FRS radio. The two bands are combined in one radio as I said above.

^ The radios only have a _portion_ of the FRS band, not
^ the whole thing.

That may be true for some radios but the one I have has ALL the FRS
frequencies. It also has ALL the GMRS frequencies except the repeater input
frequencies. It also has all the newly allocated GMRS frequencies. I think
the preceding in this paragraph is also true for most new GMRS/FRS radios.

^ The ONLY reason they have a portion is because the two
^ bands happen to overlap each other, as set forth by the
^ FCC rules.

I think you must be looking at older radios. GMRS and FRS each have a unique
set of frequencies. They both also have a set that is common to each other.
The quoted manual text above shows this.

^ Like I said above, the radios can not be used without
^ a license because they do not comply with the rules set
^ forth for FRS radios which are license free.

I just checked the rules for GMRS and for FRS and I can't see where you're
getting that prohibition.


Frank

"Frank" wrote in message
news:01c350a0$61a923d0$0125250a@twrmiqpjcjrnelbd.. .
PowerHouse CB & Scanner ...
^ The radios cannot be used as FRS because they are
^ _capable_ of being operated at a higher power setting,
^ which is a clear violation of the rules set out for FRS.

I don't recall seeing that particular rule. Can you cite it?


Because of it's ability to increase power on the frequencies that are common
between FRS and GMRS, the unit is not (or should not be) certified for use
as an FRS radio, there-by making illegal to use as one, as certification is
required. See below:


CERTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS
§ 95.645 Control accessibility.

(a) No control, switch or other type
of adjustment which, when manipulated,
can result in a violation of the
rules shall be accessible from the
transmitter operating panel or from
exterior of the transmitter enclosure.

[53 FR 36789, Sept. 22, 1988. Redesignated at
61 FR 28769, June 6, 1996, and further redesignated
at 61 FR 46567, Sept. 4, 1996; 63 FR
36610, July 7, 1998]

§ 95.649 Power capability.

No CB, R/C, LPRS, FRS, MICS or
WMTS unit shall incorporate provisions
for increasing its transmitter
power to any level in excess of the limits
specified in § 95.639.
[65 FR 44008, July 17, 2000]

EFFECTIVE DATE NOTE: At 65 FR 44008, July
17, 2000, § 95.649 was revised, effective Oct. 16,
2000.

TECHNICAL STANDARDS
§ 95.639 Maximum transmitter power.

(d) No FRS unit, under any condition
of modulation, shall exceed 0.500 W effective
radiated power (ERP).
[53 FR 36789, Sept. 22, 1988; 53 FR 44144, Nov.
1, 1988. Redesignated and amended at 61 FR
28769, 28770, June 6, 1996, and further redesignated
and amended at 61 FR 46567, 46569,
Sept. 4, 1996; 64 FR 69932, Dec. 15, 1999; 65 FR
44008, July 17, 2000; 65 FR 53190, Sept. 1, 2000]

EFFECTIVE DATE NOTE: At 65 FR 44008, July
17, 2000, and corrected at 65 FR 53190, Sept. 1,
2000, in § 95.639, paragraph (g) was added, effective
Oct. 16, 2000.

PowerHouse CB & Scanner ...

^ Because of it's ability to increase power on the
^ frequencies that are common between FRS and GMRS, the
^ unit is not (or should not be) certified for use as
^ an FRS radio, there-by making illegal to use as one,
^ as certification is required.

Good points. But while reading your rules I think I found a better one:

Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.
(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You
can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label
placed on it by the manufacturer.)

The radios we've been discussing are GMRS/FRS radios. An FRS operator is
permitted to "only use an FCC certified FRS unit." An FRS operator is not
permitted to use a GMRS radio unit. As per the regulations you cited,
GMRS/FRS units are GMRS units with FRS capabilities, so they may not be used
without a GMRS license.

Frank

"Frank" wrote in message
news:01c35205$f9aa7d80$0125250a@lqobnirkuazgzcvg.. .
PowerHouse CB & Scanner ...

^ Because of it's ability to increase power on the
^ frequencies that are common between FRS and GMRS, the
^ unit is not (or should not be) certified for use as
^ an FRS radio, there-by making illegal to use as one,
^ as certification is required.

Good points. But while reading your rules I think I found a better one:


Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.
(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You
can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label
placed on it by the manufacturer.)

The radios we've been discussing are GMRS/FRS radios. An FRS operator is
permitted to "only use an FCC certified FRS unit." An FRS operator is not
permitted to use a GMRS radio unit. As per the regulations you cited,
GMRS/FRS units are GMRS units with FRS capabilities, so they may not be
used without a GMRS license.

Who says they're not FRS units with GMRS capabilities? The two of
you remind me of some guy in a r.a.* group not long ago claiming it was
against the law to buy a marine band radio, hook it up and _listen_ w/out a
license.
Using the above logic, it would be illegal for me, as a licensed
Technician, to operate an HF/6 meter rig in the 6 meter band, which is
nonsense - it's perfectly legal. (Yes, type acceptance arguments don't
apply - it's the LOGIC I'm talking about.)



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"Frank" wrote in message
news:01c35205$f9aa7d80$0125250a@lqobnirkuazgzcvg.. .
Good points. But while reading your rules I think I found a better one:

Sec. 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.
(a) You may only use an FCC certified FRS unit. (You
can identify an FCC certified FRS unit by the label
placed on it by the manufacturer.)


I had thought about including that rule as well, however, I figured since my
argument was basically relating to that of power levels, I would only
include the portion relating to that.

The radios we've been discussing are GMRS/FRS radios. An FRS operator is
permitted to "only use an FCC certified FRS unit." An FRS operator is not
permitted to use a GMRS radio unit. As per the regulations you cited,
GMRS/FRS units are GMRS units with FRS capabilities, so they may not be
used
without a GMRS license.


Yup, that was my point. They truly aren't FRS radios, just GMRS radios with
a little extra. In essence, without the license, a person should not be
transmitting with one, even if they stick to the proper frequencies and
power levels. Who's going to know the difference? Probably no one, I just
wanted to make a point that technically it should not be done.

PH