Dirk wrote:
Ham's care more about operating appliances than knowing how to save a lives.

:-(

It all depends on the person requesting help. Some people, I would
probably just let drown... Like clowns that troll antenna newsgroups
with silly crap about CW. I bet I could save a lot more lives per
minute
using CW than you could. Wanna race? If you insist.. At that price I
can't resist...
MK

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:47:18 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.

Al Klein wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.

I'm talking about the emergency GPS-based system now in
operation. Other ships are automatically notified of
emergencies and given headings for reaching the emergency
location. If the Titanic and California had been so equipped,
the California could probably have gotten there before the
Titanic sank. The GPS-based emergency system doesn't go to
sleep like the California's CW operator did. I believe the
California also ignored a flare from the Titanic thinking
it was just part of the maiden voyage celebration.

If radio had not existed, the next passing ship would have
rescued any survivors. That's the way it was for centuries
before the invention of radio. There were often survivors
in lifeboats waiting to be picked up in the shipping lanes.
Well-equipped lifeboats could survive for weeks in calm
waters as did the ejected sailors of "Bounty" fame.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:37:48 -0400, Al Klein
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:47:18 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.
try onstar.... superior to IMC !


--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

"Buck" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:37:48 -0400, Al Klein
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:47:18 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.
try onstar.... superior to IMC !


--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW

I am not so sure about that. My first and only experience with Onstar - was
not a very good impression. The "phone system" didn't dial out for crap - by
the time you got it to accept the "right" number, you could be dead. Three
people in the vehicle called out the number to the sytem a minimum of 5
times each before one of us finally got it to dial. I'm not sure how the
other part (emergency locator and response) would have worked as it was
never tried. Maybe it works ok in some areas and not others, like cell
phones, I don't know - I'm not "that" familiar with it, but that was my
experience, limited as it was. I know others seem to have good reports.

Code - has had it's place in history - be it with the Titanic however it
helped - to maybe others stranded. We don't know about any (or many)
"military" use(s) where it may have helped out, we don't always hear about
those things. Is CODE the "saviour" of the world? NO. Each mode or language
if you choose to call it that - has it's own heroic moment at some point.
Even Smoke Signals (if truly used/existed) probably had SOME helpful value.
In a sense, smoke signals STILL exist. They use them at the Vatican to
signify certain events - more notibly the death of a Pope. Simply put - you
use what you have available at the moment - be it smoke signals, sun light
off a mirror, code, fax, voice, drums, whatever. Anything is better than
nothing in time of need. Seriously, I don't understand the argument over
Code. Times change, things change. We could argue the use of the smoke at
the Vatican when a PA system would do the same job.

With each advance in technology, something goes off the shelf and tossed
aside or if kept on the shelf, gets serious dust collections due to little
if any use. Electricity replaced candles and lanterns for the most part -
though not completely. The Telephone didn't automatically discontinue all
other forms of communication - ie, code. The fax and e-mail have not yet
altogether replaced "mail" but some day it may. We as a whole can choose to
keep something by "using" it or losing it by NOT using it. Things just don't
disappear overnight. IF ya like code - USE IT. IF ya don't, then don't worry
about it. "IF" you need it to get a license - 5 wpm is not that hard. You
won't get it by osmosis. It takes some determination. Just like studying the
book. Nothing in life is worth much if just handed to you. There are myriads
of things we "must" learn in life which may never be used again - it goes
with the territory of life and getting through it. I had to take a course in
college once to jump through their hoops. Have I ever used it since? HELL
NO. No plan to - either.

As to the Titanic operator being a smart ass as someone alluded to in here -
maybe he was just losing his cool (very afraid) and trying desperately to
get help and felt any other signals were just going to interfere. I don't
know - just my own supposition. People do strange things in an emergency and
staring death in the eye IS an emergency. Maybe he screwed up, maybe things
could have went differently - we'll never know. FATE has a strange way of
playing out in all our lives. We can argue all night long over the "would
haves and could haves". Nothing will change that course of history. The fact
remains, he at least got the word out and SOME people were saved. ALL could
have been lost - were he killed prior to the sending of the message AND if
no one else aboard knew how to operate the equipment. He was just a "player"
in the scheme of things. Had they not hit the iceberg by whatever faulty(?)
piloting or directions being given in the first place, the Radio Operator
wouldn't even be the issue. We had an incident here when I was but a teen. A
"firefighter" had a problem - losing his cool, he got on the radio and said
"Clear the airwaves, we have a national emergency". Yes, they had a problem,
not of "national" proportion, but he lost his cool and went overboard in
what he did with the radio. People - even stone hard natured people - panic
given the right scenario. FRIGHT exists in all of us - at some time. Panic
is the response.

GPS, CODE, ONSTAR - NOTHING (except perhaps radar or sonar) would have told
them the icebergs were there. Even if they knew they were in a section of
water where there were "known" icebergs that they could have steered away
from, - as we know - icebergs can and DO break off - so this one "could"
have been such a case. It was a doomed mission just as any that the
Astronauts have been killed on - even with all the so-called advanced
technology and communications at their disposal. Any number of people could
be pointed to or "what ifs" asked. The point is, the end is still the same.
People died. In the latter case, NO amount of radio comms modes would have
made a difference. Just like the spotting of the iceberg at the last
minute - so too was the spotting of the problem in the heat shield and
equipment - aboard the shuttle - too little - too late - with or without
radio - regardless the mode.

Just my 2 cents.

Lou/Ka3flu

clfe wrote:
As to the Titanic operator being a smart ass as someone alluded to in here -
maybe he was just losing his cool (very afraid) and trying desperately to
get help and felt any other signals were just going to interfere.

It was before the Titanic hit the iceberg that the Titanic
CW operator told the Californian CW operator to get off the
air. He considered his normal Titanic CW message traffic to
have priority over any CW traffic that the Californian might
need to pass. Turns out the Californian's CW operator was
the only person in the world who could have saved the life
of the Titanic's CW operator.
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

Cecil Moore wrote:
clfe wrote:
As to the Titanic operator being a smart ass as someone alluded to in here -
maybe he was just losing his cool (very afraid) and trying desperately to
get help and felt any other signals were just going to interfere.

It was before the Titanic hit the iceberg that the Titanic
CW operator told the Californian CW operator to get off the
air. He considered his normal Titanic CW message traffic to
have priority over any CW traffic that the Californian might
need to pass. Turns out the Californian's CW operator was
the only person in the world who could have saved the life
of the Titanic's CW operator.

Cecil I will conseede the CW usage could have saved lives could still
save lives

but that was never the question

the question of the thread is could you save a life with CW is the
chance came
I am sure you could.

I could I certainly I could by very different means

could I save lifes on HF if the need arouse certainly I could do so
except I do not listen them nowsince Ican't use them as rotuiene matter

which would save more life and property maintining CW testing to keep
many of the current tech from aquiring HF experence or droing the test
al though us sue of the bands and the abilty to learn in an evionment
that assures there is some one out there to talk to someone
--
73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

clfe wrote:
"Buck" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:37:48 -0400, Al Klein
wrote:


On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:47:18 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:


If CW had not existed at the time, how would things have
turned out differently? If the present GPS-based system
had existed at the time, how would things have turned out?

Since The radio operator of the Titanic knew exactly where they were,
GPS would have made absolutely no difference. If radio hadn't
existed, everyone aboard would have died.

try onstar.... superior to IMC !


--
73 for now
Buck
N4PGW


I am not so sure about that. My first and only experience with Onstar - was
not a very good impression. The "phone system" didn't dial out for crap - by
the time you got it to accept the "right" number, you could be dead. Three
people in the vehicle called out the number to the sytem a minimum of 5
times each before one of us finally got it to dial. I'm not sure how the
other part (emergency locator and response) would have worked as it was
never tried. Maybe it works ok in some areas and not others, like cell
phones, I don't know - I'm not "that" familiar with it, but that was my
experience, limited as it was. I know others seem to have good reports.

The first thing to go out in a disaster is the phone system. The cell
phone system is not immune to this problem.


Code - has had it's place in history - be it with the Titanic however it
helped - to maybe others stranded. We don't know about any (or many)
"military" use(s) where it may have helped out, we don't always hear about
those things.

A long time ago a guy I worked with told me that when he was in the Army
he was assigned to the artillery. He could not qualify as a forward
observer because he could only work 20 wpm and needed to be able to do
30 to qualify as a FO communicator.

Is CODE the "saviour" of the world? NO. Each mode or language
if you choose to call it that - has it's own heroic moment at some point.
Even Smoke Signals (if truly used/existed) probably had SOME helpful value.
In a sense, smoke signals STILL exist. They use them at the Vatican to
signify certain events - more notibly the death of a Pope. Simply put - you
use what you have available at the moment - be it smoke signals, sun light
off a mirror, code, fax, voice, drums, whatever. Anything is better than
nothing in time of need. Seriously, I don't understand the argument over
Code. Times change, things change. We could argue the use of the smoke at
the Vatican when a PA system would do the same job.

This is definitely tradition not necessity.


With each advance in technology, something goes off the shelf and tossed
aside or if kept on the shelf, gets serious dust collections due to little
if any use. Electricity replaced candles and lanterns for the most part -
though not completely. The Telephone didn't automatically discontinue all
other forms of communication - ie, code. The fax and e-mail have not yet
altogether replaced "mail" but some day it may. We as a whole can choose to
keep something by "using" it or losing it by NOT using it. Things just don't
disappear overnight. IF ya like code - USE IT. IF ya don't, then don't worry
about it. "IF" you need it to get a license - 5 wpm is not that hard. You
won't get it by osmosis. It takes some determination. Just like studying the
book. Nothing in life is worth much if just handed to you. There are myriads
of things we "must" learn in life which may never be used again - it goes
with the territory of life and getting through it. I had to take a course in
college once to jump through their hoops. Have I ever used it since? HELL
NO. No plan to - either.



As to the Titanic operator being a smart ass as someone alluded to in here -
maybe he was just losing his cool (very afraid) and trying desperately to
get help and felt any other signals were just going to interfere. I don't
know - just my own supposition. People do strange things in an emergency and
staring death in the eye IS an emergency. Maybe he screwed up, maybe things
could have went differently - we'll never know.

The radio operation on the RMS Titanic was controlled by the Marconie
Radio Company. As such the Titanic radio operator was discouraged from
communicating with any station controlled by another company. This is
called free enterprise. Also the radio was not under the command of
Capt. Smith. This was changed after the sinking. They also mandated 24/7
monitoring of the emergency radio frequencies.


FATE has a strange way of
playing out in all our lives. We can argue all night long over the "would
haves and could haves". Nothing will change that course of history. The fact
remains, he at least got the word out and SOME people were saved. ALL could
have been lost - were he killed prior to the sending of the message AND if
no one else aboard knew how to operate the equipment. He was just a "player"
in the scheme of things. Had they not hit the iceberg by whatever faulty(?)
piloting or directions being given in the first place, the Radio Operator
wouldn't even be the issue. We had an incident here when I was but a teen. A
"firefighter" had a problem - losing his cool, he got on the radio and said
"Clear the airwaves, we have a national emergency". Yes, they had a problem,
not of "national" proportion, but he lost his cool and went overboard in
what he did with the radio. People - even stone hard natured people - panic
given the right scenario. FRIGHT exists in all of us - at some time. Panic
is the response.

GPS, CODE, ONSTAR - NOTHING (except perhaps radar or sonar) would have told
them the icebergs were there. Even if they knew they were in a section of
water where there were "known" icebergs that they could have steered away
from, - as we know - icebergs can and DO break off - so this one "could"
have been such a case.

The Canadian Coast Guard and the United States Coast Guard expend a lot
of time and money looking for and tracking these icebergs. After the
Titanic went down the International Iceberg Patrol was created. It even
functioned during the Second World War giving positions report to allied
mariners.

It was a doomed mission just as any that the
Astronauts have been killed on - even with all the so-called advanced
technology and communications at their disposal. Any number of people could
be pointed to or "what ifs" asked. The point is, the end is still the same.
People died. In the latter case, NO amount of radio comms modes would have
made a difference. Just like the spotting of the iceberg at the last
minute - so too was the spotting of the problem in the heat shield and
equipment - aboard the shuttle - too little - too late - with or without
radio - regardless the mode.

Just my 2 cents.


Just my 2 cents also.

Dave WD9BDZ

Lou/Ka3flu

Cecil Moore wrote:

clfe wrote:

As to the Titanic operator being a smart ass as someone alluded to in
here - maybe he was just losing his cool (very afraid) and trying
desperately to get help and felt any other signals were just going to
interfere.


It was before the Titanic hit the iceberg that the Titanic
CW operator told the Californian CW operator to get off the
air. He considered his normal Titanic CW message traffic to
have priority over any CW traffic that the Californian might
need to pass. Turns out the Californian's CW operator was
the only person in the world who could have saved the life
of the Titanic's CW operator.

Ship born radio communications were controlled by communications
companies completely separate from the ship. The radio operators were
not under the command of the ship's captain. In the case of Titanic the
Marconi Radio Company controlled the radio. Californian and Carpathia
had different company control and there was a definite rivalry between
the companies. The Titanic operator was fully justified in telling the
Californian operator to close station. This was one of the direct causes
of the formation of the international radio treaties we operate under now.

Dave WD9BDZ

Cecil Moore wrote:

Dave wrote:

C'mon Cecil, you've been licensed as long as I have. I Know you Know
CW. Does that mean we're virtually obsolete?


My favorite mode is CW and it's a fun mode but it is never
going to save the world.

AGREE!!!!!