RHF wrote:


hope this helps - iane ~ RHF

I would think step 1 should be to make sure you're not pounding a steel
rod through a sewer pipe or into your 240V power line.

Telamon wrote:


Where he lives a common mode antenna is most likely the worst choice for
an antenna anyway.


http://www.pa0sim.nl/Antenna%20commo...0impedance.htm

Michael wrote:


I already have a di-pole. A 102' G5RV on my roof. I'm building a second
antenna because my current 150' long wire has fallen apart on the roof after
being up there for three years. I have an ICE-180 balun that I can take off
of that mess, so I figured I'd use that in the construction of something
that can make use of it, like an inverted L. So far I just spent money on a
new 6' ground rod and a 20 buck spool of antenna wire. Under 50 bucks
total. Why the hell wont I get an effective ground here with a six foot
ground rod ??? I always thought the ground here in this area had great
conductivity. That is why there are so many MW transmitters here.

BTW... My G5RV works very well from 5 megahertz to 10 megahertz. Is isn't
so good below of above that. My 150' long wire was great for anything above
10 megahertz. Unbelievably, it was also very good for 3 megahertz to 4
megahertz. I have no idea why. The way I had that one grounded was, I'm
sure, a poor way to do it. I have a 12 gauge wire going from the radio, up
on the roof to the ICE-180 balun's ground, and then back down the house to a
ground rod in the earth. The current ground rod is only 3' long iron bar.
Don't ask me how, but it worked.

Michael



How about a Soviet active?

http://www.naval.com/vpa.htm

;-)

On Apr 18, 10:49*am, msg wrote:
wrote:
A bunch of years ago, I bought eight copper plated, whatever plated they
are? eight foot long ground steel rods at the Goodwill store, dirt
cheep.Last year, I gave one of my auld buddies five of them, for
free.((Ronnie, you never know when you might need to hacksaw off a piece
of rod for something)) He told me,,, you dont need to use a big
hammer,,, just hold it between your fingers and bump it up and down in
the dirt.
-
- You might have soft soils,
- but in my area the clay is thick,
- deep and often hard as rock.
-
- Michael
-

Michael & MSG,

The Ground Rod is First and Formost for Electrical Safety
and it can also Help to Improve your Radio Reception.

NEC Compliant Ground Electrode Systems
http://www.transorbelectrical.com/pq...ntGndRodR8.pdf

You say that you have a Six Foot (6') Brass Ground Rod.

Most people buy and use the more common Eight Foot (8')
Copper-Clad Steel Ground Rods that are sold in just about
every Hardware Store because they meet NEC Requirements.
http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...ductId=1402217

Installing Ground Rods the Easy Way
http://www.cosjwt.com/index.php?a=16

Grounding Electrodes
http://www.galvanelectrical.com/electrodes.asp

Why Copper Ground Rods?
http://www.smeter.net/daily-facts/1/fact18.php

Ground Rod Electrodes - What You Need to Know
http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/06_b/lund.html

13 Common Misconceptions of Good Grounding Practices
http://www.galvanelectrical.com/commandments.asp

Secondarily understand Grounding in RF Environments
-by- William D. Chesney [N8SA]
http://www.hamuniverse.com/grounding.html

Antenna Ground Rod - Does it Help ?
http://www.cosjwt.com/index.php?a=21

GROUND RODS - THE HARD SOIL FACTS :
OK so you have Hard Clay Soil - Then you have more
Hard Work ahead for you to do over a several Days.

Usually you can start by taking a Post Hole Digger
and going down Two Feet or more on Day # 1
Day # 2 go down another Foot to 3 Feet.
Day # 3 go down another Foot to 4 Feet.
Day # 4 go down another Foot to 5 Feet.
Day # 5 go down another Foot to 6 Feet.

Note - Each Day : Check for Water Seepage
and Water Build-up in the Hole
* Dry - No Water - Bad
* Several Inches of Water - Good

FWIW - Most Post Hole Diggers will make a 6"~9" Hole.

Next - Buy some Yard Soil 2 Large Bags
Plus 2 Bags of Cat/Kitty Litter {Bentonite}
Two 4 Lb. Packages of Epson Salt [Magnesium Sulfate}
One Pound Package of Copper Sulfate {Copper Sulfate}
One Pound Baking Soda {Sodium Bicarbonate}
One Pound Salt {Sodium Chloride}
Take Half the Volumes of the above items and Mix
them all 'together' and Fill the Hole. Scoop the Mix
into the Hole add some Water to Soak wait and Hour
and then Tamp the Top of the Mix with a 2"x4"x8'.
-IF- The Hole is not filled then take the some or all
of the remaining Volmes of the above Items and Mix
them all 'together' and Fill the Hole some more up
to about 6 Inches from the ground's Surface. Add
some Water to Soak wait and Hour and then Tamp
the Top of the Mix with a 2"x4"x8'.

POUND - Your Ground Rod into the Center
of the Filled Ground Rod Hole.

Note - Save the remaining Mixture in a Plastic Bag
or Bucket for future use and Topping-Off of the Hole
as needed.

? WHY ? - Make Your Own 'Special' Ground Rod Soil Mixture
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...b69b219da2de33
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...549154294a4d9b

Ground Radials and Counterpoises ?
http://www.sgcworld.com/radialstechnote.html
http://www.antennex.com/shack/Dec06/cps.html

-IF- Possible a Single Ground Radial connected
to the Ground Rod and acting as a Counterpoise :
That is placed directly under a Horizontal-Wire or
Inverted "L" Antenna can help greatly in improving
the RF Performance of the Antenna System.
http://www.bencher.com/pdfs/00803ZZV.pdf
http://www.cebik.com/gp/cp-th.html


hope this helps iane ~ RHF {pomkia}

RHF wrote:

- How about a Soviet active?
-
- http://www.naval.com/vpa.htm
-
- ;-)
-

Says/Looks to be Designed for Shipboard Use :
Covers AM : LW + MW + SW : 100 kHz ~ 30 MHz
Plus FM : VHF/UHF : 68 MHz ~ 110 MHz

Active MF-HF-FM Receiving Antenna VPA 30
-by- Naval Electronics, Inc. -USA-
http://www.naval.com/vpa.htm
33.5" Vertical Antenna Element by 3/8" Diameter
41.3" Long/Tall
3.3" Base Diameter
15 VDC @ 125 mA

? VPA :
Vertical Polarization Antenna ?
Voltage Probe Antenna ?
.
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/sw_ant/0328.html

Michael wrote:
"Telamon" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Michael" wrote:


"Telamon" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Michael" wrote:


"Telamon" wrote in message
.
..


Where he lives a common mode antenna is most likely the worst
choice for an antenna anyway.

What antenna would you recommend ??? Besides dead poultry.

People that meet RHF have a tendency to slap him over the head with a
dead chicken in case you were wondering where that came from.


Anything not a common mode antenna such as a random/long wire.

Make a dipole or a loop antenna. Those antennas don't need a ground to
operate.


I already have a di-pole. A 102' G5RV on my roof. I'm building a second
antenna because my current 150' long wire has fallen apart on the roof
after
being up there for three years. I have an ICE-180 balun that I can take
off
of that mess, so I figured I'd use that in the construction of something
that can make use of it, like an inverted L. So far I just spent money
on a
new 6' ground rod and a 20 buck spool of antenna wire. Under 50 bucks
total. Why the hell wont I get an effective ground here with a six foot
ground rod ??? I always thought the ground here in this area had great
conductivity. That is why there are so many MW transmitters here.

You should get a good ground with a 6 foot rod. I was commenting on the
retard from the San Francisco area spouting advise about the rod for
different soil conditions than what you have. Chances are for you the
water table is about 2 or 3 feet below ground. Chances are you have 4 to
6 inches of top soil then several feet of clay.

You were complaining about area noise before this and a common mode
antenna would be the worst way to go if you are surrounded by neighbors
with noise makers.


BTW... My G5RV works very well from 5 megahertz to 10 megahertz. Is
isn't
so good below of above that. My 150' long wire was great for anything
above
10 megahertz. Unbelievably, it was also very good for 3 megahertz to 4
megahertz. I have no idea why. The way I had that one grounded was, I'm
sure, a poor way to do it. I have a 12 gauge wire going from the radio,
up
on the roof to the ICE-180 balun's ground, and then back down the house
to a
ground rod in the earth. The current ground rod is only 3' long iron
bar.
Don't ask me how, but it worked.

Any time you have a wire in the air of an electrically significant
length then you do not have a ground wire. What you have is a counter
poise and its electrical length will sum with the characteristics of the
Random/Long-wire that is the other part of the antenna. The length is
the important consideration not the diameter.

You have made the investment so go and install the inverted L. Keep it
as far from your house and the neighbors as you possibly can. If you
like the performance, and the coax is traveling across the ground to get
to your house, you can bury it in a trench. You could protect the coax
in the ground with PVC pipe or buy the type of coax that is designed to
be put in the ground.

There is no point in running another ground wire from your radio to the
antenna ground point. The coax shield is that connection.

You would want a separate ground for the antenna ground at the ICE BALUN
because the ground at the radio is from the mains and is contaminated
with electrical noise from other devices.

The ICE BALUN is really an UNUN in this case. Unbalanced antenna to
Unbalanced transmission line.



For the inverted L, what tap on the the ICE-180 should I use ??? 300, 450,
600 or 800

Michael


I would try the 450 or 600. That seems to be the typical impedance range
of an inverted-L. Or you can try listening to various frequency bands
on the radio while someone changes the taps on the ICE. That's another
advantage of having the balun near the ground.

Michael wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
m...

RHF wrote:


hope this helps - iane ~ RHF

I would think step 1 should be to make sure you're not pounding a steel
rod through a sewer pipe or into your 240V power line.


Oh... No problem.... I don't have a steel rod. I'll be pounding a brass rod
through utility conduits.

Michael


The most common ground rods that you would find at the hardware or
electrical store are copper clad steel. Be sure to solder the ground
wire to the rod, not just a clamp. You may have to use a propane torch
to get enough heat for the soldering.

Sanjaya wrote:
"RHF" wrote
snip

Installing Ground Rods the Easy Way
http://www.cosjwt.com/index.php?a=16

The link above contains this quote:
"At RF frequencies it is almost pointless to expect a ground rod like this
to do much good; Only a system of radial wires will help (This will be
proven in a later article on this site). For the sake of argument, however,
let's assume the ground rod will help. Unlike lightning which can and will
arc between two conductors, we need a low ohmic connection for RF antenna
currents. Thus only a wire soldered or brazed to the ground rod makes
sense."

Is he saying a ground rod won't improver reception?


Ideally you want the most conductive surface area you can get in the
ground. That's why more ground rods are better than one, particularly
for transmitting purposes. But one rod is usually enough for receiving
if the ground has average conductivity. In a dry area like the desert,
it may well require many horizontal radial rods or even copper sheet
metal buried in the ground to get a decent RF ground.

In article
,
RHF wrote:

On Apr 18, 4:09*pm, "Michael" wrote:
"Telamon" wrote in message

..
.





In article ,
"Michael" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"Michael" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message
.
net.
..

Where he lives a common mode antenna is most likely the
worst choice for an antenna anyway.

What antenna would you recommend ??? Besides dead poultry.

People that meet RHF have a tendency to slap him over the head
with a dead chicken in case you were wondering where that came
from.

Anything not a common mode antenna such as a random/long wire.

Make a dipole or a loop antenna. Those antennas don't need a
ground to operate.

I already have a di-pole. *A 102' G5RV on my roof. *I'm building
a second antenna because my current 150' long wire has fallen
apart on the roof after being up there for three years. *I have
an ICE-180 balun that I can take off of that mess, so I figured
I'd use that in the construction of something that can make use
of it, like an inverted L. *So far I just spent money on a new
6' ground rod and a 20 buck spool of antenna wire. *Under 50
bucks total. *Why the hell wont I get an effective ground here
with a six foot ground rod ??? *I always thought the ground here
in this area had great conductivity. *That is why there are so
many MW transmitters here.

You should get a good ground with a 6 foot rod. I was commenting
on the retard from the San Francisco area spouting advise about
the rod for different soil conditions than what you have. Chances
are for you the water table is about 2 or 3 feet below ground.
Chances are you have 4 to 6 inches of top soil then several feet
of clay.

You were complaining about area noise before this and a common
mode antenna would be the worst way to go if you are surrounded
by neighbors with noise makers.

BTW... My G5RV works very well from 5 megahertz to 10 megahertz.
*Is isn't so good below of above that. *My 150' long wire was
great for anything above 10 megahertz. *Unbelievably, it was
also very good for 3 megahertz to 4 megahertz. *I have no idea
why. *The way I had that one grounded was, I'm sure, a poor way
to do it. *I have a 12 gauge wire going from the radio, up on
the roof to the ICE-180 balun's ground, and then back down the
house to a ground rod in the earth. *The current ground rod is
only 3' long iron bar. Don't ask me how, but it worked.

Any time you have a wire in the air of an electrically
significant length then you do not have a ground wire. What you
have is a counter poise and its electrical length will sum with
the characteristics of the Random/Long-wire that is the other
part of the antenna. The length is the important consideration
not the diameter.

You have made the investment so go and install the inverted L.
Keep it as far from your house and the neighbors as you possibly
can. If you like the performance, and the coax is traveling
across the ground to get to your house, you can bury it in a
trench. You could protect the coax in the ground with PVC pipe or
buy the type of coax that is designed to be put in the ground.

There is no point in running another ground wire from your radio
to the antenna ground point. The coax shield is that connection.

You would want a separate ground for the antenna ground at the
ICE BALUN because the ground at the radio is from the mains and
is contaminated with electrical noise from other devices.

The ICE BALUN is really an UNUN in this case. Unbalanced antenna
to Unbalanced transmission line.


- For the inverted L, what tap on the the ICE-180 - should I use ???
300, 450, 600 or 800 - - Michael -

Michael,

As others have suggested try each Tap one-at-a-time to find out which
is best for you; your conditions; and your set-up.

Do this over several Days during different times of the Day.

Record your Observations and then Review your Notes to decide which
Tap gives you the Best Over-All Performance.

I don't that is necessary. What is important is note the differences on
a stable signal over several frequencies of interest for a tap. Time of
day is not important. Chances are one signal will suffice for finding
the best tap. Chance are in will be the lowest one anyway.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article xgCOj.73$XY1.27@trndny03, Drakefan
wrote:

Sanjaya wrote:
"RHF" wrote
snip

Installing Ground Rods the Easy Way
http://www.cosjwt.com/index.php?a=16

The link above contains this quote:
"At RF frequencies it is almost pointless to expect a ground rod like this
to do much good; Only a system of radial wires will help (This will be
proven in a later article on this site). For the sake of argument, however,
let's assume the ground rod will help. Unlike lightning which can and will
arc between two conductors, we need a low ohmic connection for RF antenna
currents. Thus only a wire soldered or brazed to the ground rod makes
sense."

Is he saying a ground rod won't improver reception?


Ideally you want the most conductive surface area you can get in the
ground. That's why more ground rods are better than one, particularly
for transmitting purposes. But one rod is usually enough for receiving
if the ground has average conductivity. In a dry area like the desert,
it may well require many horizontal radial rods or even copper sheet
metal buried in the ground to get a decent RF ground.

And that's why radials are better than ground rods unless you live in a
swamp.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California