On Apr 20, 6:41*pm, "Dale Parfitt" wrote:
"RHF" wrote in message

...



IIRC - Some Shortwave Radio Listeners (SWLs) have been
know to attach a different Wire Antenna Element to each of
the Taps on an ICE-180 and Feed {Mix} All the Signals into
One and send them down the Coax Cable to their Radio /
Receiver. ;-}

ICE 180 a Reasonably Priced Professional Matching Unit
-by- John Doty
http://www.hard-core-dx.com/nordicdx...ed/ice180.html

ICE 180A Beverage Matching Unit
http://www.iceradioproducts.com/reconly.html
I.C.E. = Industrial Communication Engineers, Ltd.

Multi-Element Inverted "L" Antenna using an ICE-180
Matching Transformer is an 'interesting and 'tempting' Idea.

Mount the ICE-180 Matching Transformer on a Ground Rod
and use Four Separate Inverted "L" Antennas with a Space
Bar at the Base giving 3"~6" between the Vertical-Up-Legs
of the "L"s. *Beyond this Rig the Vertical-Up-Legs Tops and
the Horizontal-Out-Arm Ends separately and independent
from each other.

- Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the "separate"
- antennas function as separate antennas.
-
- eg: 2 dipoles running at right angles to one another
- (a + sign as viewd from above) and fed together does
- not result in a near omni antenna, but rather as a single
- dipole run at 45 degrees to the "+" configuration.
-
- Now, if you were to remotely switch each antenna,
- that would be a different story.
- Dale
-

Dale [W4OP],

NOTE : For the sake of this discussion all Four of the
Inverted "L" Antenna Elements are co-aligned in the
same Vertical Plane.

The ICE 180 Matching Transformer 'acts' as the Collection
Point for each of the Signals coming from the Four 'individual'
Wire Antenna Elements.

In this instance the Four Taps on the Antenna Side of the
ICE 180 Matching Transformer 'act' as a Summing Network.
The Output of which is fed {transferred} to the Coax Cable
Side of the ICE 180 Matching Transformer.

Each of the Wire Antenna Elements is 'separated' in Space.
15.1 Feet & 19.7 Feet & 24.5 Feet & 38.5 Feet
Deltas : 4.6 Feet & 4.8 Feet & 14 Feet = 23.4 Feet

Each of the Wire Antenna Elements is a 'different' Length
-wrt- Wave Length; and therefore 'unique' to itself.
39.6 Feet & 51.5 Feet & 63 Feet & 97.7 Feet

Collectively All of the Wire Antenna Elements add-up-to
More Wire In-the-Air and a Greater Signal Capture Area.

More Wire In-the-Air :
39.6 Feet + 51.5 Feet + 63 Feet + 97.7 Feet = 251.8 Feet Long

Greater Signal Capture Area :
300 Tap "L" by itself : 15.1 x 24.5 / 2 = 185 Sq. Ft.
450 Tap "L" by itself : 19.7 x 31.8 / 2 = 313 Sq. Ft.
600 Tap "L" by itself : 24.5 x 38.5 / 2 = 472 Sq. Ft.
800 Tap "L" by itself : 38.5 x 59.2 / 2 = 1140 Sq. Ft.
Collective Areas : 2110 Sq. Ft. filled with Four Wire Antenna
Elements versus anyone of the single Elements.

Summary :
All of this is not 'scientific' but simply a practical approach
to puting : More Wire In-the-Air by using a specific feature
of the ICE 180 Matching Transfromer : The Taps.


yes - i know that 'in-theory' i am wrong
-but- practically speaking i am . . .
sort-of kind-of right - iane ~ RHF

On Apr 21, 8:04 am, "Dale Parfitt" wrote:
- - "
- - The ICE 180 Matching Transformer 'acts' as the Collection
- - Point for each of the Signals coming from the Four 'individual'
- - Wire Antenna Elements.

- - In this instance the Four Taps on the Antenna Side of the
- - ICE 180 Matching Transformer 'act' as a Summing Network.
- - The Output of which is fed {transferred} to the Coax Cable
- - Side of the ICE 180 Matching Transformer.

- You'd have to prove it to me.

My only Practical Proof is what I hear with my own two ears.

- Simply connecting the wires to different taps on a
- transformer does not sum as it would in a well designed
- hybrid that has excellent port-port isolation.

Not claiming that it does a good or great job of Summing
Up the Products of the Four Individual Antennas.

May in-fact do a poor job of doing that.

-but- The Practical End Result -may-be- Better that the
Result from any of the Four by itself.

- More wire in the air does not necessarily relate to
- more capture area and more capture area

In this instance the Four Inverted "L" Antennas all colocated
in the same Vertical Plane form and Array {Curtain} and "DO"
have a Greater Signal Capture Area then any of the Four by itself.

- may or may not be a good thing.

Yes - Collectively the Composite Signal from the Four
-may-be- Better-or-Worse then any of the Four by itself.

Like many things : Until an Individual try it in their own
unique location with their own unique Radio Shack
they will not know the outcome good or bad or simply
ho-hum.

- At MW and HF being able to reduce noise - whether it
- be manmade or atmospheric is worth a lot more than
- simply more signal and noise.

Yes - That is True.

- Better S/N only comes by use of an antenna that has
- directional characteristics that can reduce or null noise
- arriving from unwanted directions- thus the popularity of
- beverages, EWE's, K9AY's, flags, pennants, loops, Yagis
- with clean side and rear lobe patterns. Note that all but
- the Yagis are VERY inefficient antennas- BUT they are
- directional and thus yield greatly improved S/N. Compare
- a well built rotatable flag+preamp to your 2000' longwire
- and see for yourself.
- Dale
-

Dale - All that and Your Technical Expertise is all way beyond
me : I try to stick to Keeping It Simple And Practical. ~ RHF

Dale - I do try to improve Signal-to-Noise from my Practical
{personal} Reference Point of a simple and basic Long-Wire
Antenna like one of the RadioShack Shortwave Antenna Kits
http://www.markdownalley.com/showitem.cfm?itemid=1397
I generally do the Following :
* Remote Antenna Element {away from the House were
practical and possible}
* Remotely Located Ground Rod {away from the House
were practical and possible}
* Matching Transformer Mounted on the Ground Rod
* Coax Cable feed-in-line from the Matching Transformer
to the Radio / Receiver

Dale - I call this a Far-End-Fed [FEF] Inverted "L" Antenna
using a Matching Transformer with a Remotely Located
Ground Rod and Coax Cable feed-in-line.

Flipping the Inverted "L" Antenna 'Back-to-Front' = Better
Performance
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...79890656d94af1

WHY - The Far-End-Fed Shortwave Listener's (SWLs) Inverted "L"
Antenna
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...cfc6b9cb2447c0

The "Correct Way" to Install a Longwire Antenna and Balun
-by- Wellbrook - Using the Far-End Feed-Point Concept
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...5cc467b35a70d5

In article
,
RHF wrote:

On Apr 20, 6:41*pm, "Dale Parfitt" wrote:
"RHF" wrote in message

SNIP

NOTE : For the sake of this discussion all Four of the
Inverted "L" Antenna Elements are co-aligned in the
same Vertical Plane.

Why? You going to build this? Well, it can't be built.

The ICE 180 Matching Transformer 'acts' as the Collection
Point for each of the Signals coming from the Four 'individual'
Wire Antenna Elements.

Do you understand that these signals are vectors with magnitude and
phase not just magnitude? That is a rhetorical question don't answer it.

In this instance the Four Taps on the Antenna Side of the
ICE 180 Matching Transformer 'act' as a Summing Network.
The Output of which is fed {transferred} to the Coax Cable
Side of the ICE 180 Matching Transformer.

Each of the Wire Antenna Elements is 'separated' in Space.
15.1 Feet & 19.7 Feet & 24.5 Feet & 38.5 Feet
Deltas : 4.6 Feet & 4.8 Feet & 14 Feet = 23.4 Feet

Each of the Wire Antenna Elements is a 'different' Length
-wrt- Wave Length; and therefore 'unique' to itself.
39.6 Feet & 51.5 Feet & 63 Feet & 97.7 Feet

Collectively All of the Wire Antenna Elements add-up-to
More Wire In-the-Air and a Greater Signal Capture Area.

Not necessarily.

More Wire In-the-Air :
39.6 Feet + 51.5 Feet + 63 Feet + 97.7 Feet = 251.8 Feet Long

Greater Signal Capture Area :
300 Tap "L" by itself : 15.1 x 24.5 / 2 = 185 Sq. Ft.
450 Tap "L" by itself : 19.7 x 31.8 / 2 = 313 Sq. Ft.
600 Tap "L" by itself : 24.5 x 38.5 / 2 = 472 Sq. Ft.
800 Tap "L" by itself : 38.5 x 59.2 / 2 = 1140 Sq. Ft.
Collective Areas : 2110 Sq. Ft. filled with Four Wire Antenna
Elements versus anyone of the single Elements.

Where did this idea come from? It makes no sense.

The wire impedance is determined by its diameter and height above
ground. This aspect of a single wire is independent of the frequency of
operation but nearly any other aspect is dependent on frequency.

Summary :
All of this is not 'scientific' but simply a practical approach
to puting : More Wire In-the-Air by using a specific feature
of the ICE 180 Matching Transfromer : The Taps.

It doesn't work that way. You could add a wire to another and have less
signal or more signal.

yes - i know that 'in-theory' i am wrong
-but- practically speaking i am . . .
sort-of kind-of right - iane ~ RHF
.

No you are just wrong.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Apr 21, 9:04*pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
On Apr 20, 6:41*pm, "Dale Parfitt" wrote:
"RHF" wrote in message

SNIP

NOTE : For the sake of this discussion all Four of the
Inverted "L" Antenna Elements are co-aligned in the
same Vertical Plane.

- Why? You going to build this?

Just For The Fun Of It - To Try Something Different.
-ps- It is an Experiment !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiment
--pps-- In Search of a Serendipity Moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serendipity

- Well, it can't be built.

Now There You Are Clearly Wrong - IIRC a few People
have Attached separate Antenna Wires to each of
the four Antenna Terminals of the ICE 180 and had
good results.

The ICE 180 Matching Transformer has been used for :
Four Element Multi-Band 1/4 WL Vertical Antenna
Four Element Multi-Band 1/4 WL Horizontal Antenna
Four Element Multi-Band 1/4 WL Sloper Antenna
Four Element Multi-Band 1/4 WL Inverted "L" Antenna


TheICE180 Matching Transformer 'acts' as the Collection
Point for each of the Signals coming from the Four 'individual'
Wire Antenna Elements.

- Do you understand that these signals are vectors
- with magnitude and phase not just magnitude?

Teli - You make it sound soooo Scientific )

That is a rhetorical question don't answer it.

OK I Won't ;-}


In this instance the Four Taps on the Antenna Side of the
ICE180 Matching Transformer 'act' as a Summing Network.
The Output of which is fed {transferred} to the Coax Cable
Side of theICE180 Matching Transformer.

Each of the Wire Antenna Elements is 'separated' in Space.
15.1 Feet & 19.7 Feet & 24.5 Feet & 38.5 Feet
Deltas : 4.6 Feet & 4.8 Feet & 14 Feet = 23.4 Feet

Each of the Wire Antenna Elements is a 'different' Length
-wrt- Wave Length; and therefore 'unique' to itself.
39.6 Feet & 51.5 Feet & 63 Feet & 97.7 Feet

Collectively All of the Wire Antenna Elements add-up-to
More Wire In-the-Air and a Greater Signal Capture Area.

- Not necessarily.

Yes -if- It is done right.

More Wire In-the-Air :
39.6 Feet + 51.5 Feet + 63 Feet + 97.7 Feet = 251.8 Feet Long

Greater Signal Capture Area :
300 Tap "L" by itself : 15.1 x 24.5 / 2 = 185 Sq. Ft.
450 Tap "L" by itself : 19.7 x 31.8 / 2 = 313 Sq. Ft.
600 Tap "L" by itself : 24.5 x 38.5 / 2 = 472 Sq. Ft.
800 Tap *"L" by itself : 38.5 x 59.2 / 2 = 1140 Sq. Ft.
Collective Areas : 2110 Sq. Ft. filled with Four Wire Antenna
Elements versus anyone of *the single Elements.

- Where did this idea come from? It makes no sense.

The Signal Aperture {Physical Shape and Size} of an
Inverted "L" Antenna creating a Triangular segment
within a Vertical Plane existing in Space : All Things
Being Relative.

- The wire impedance is determined by its diameter and
- height above ground. This aspect of a single wire is
- independent of the frequency of operation but nearly
- any other aspect is dependent on frequency.

The Wire Impedance and Frequency are not the Issues :
They Are What They Are [.]

How the Four Wires are Connected to the ICE 180 and
collectively How the Four Wires Act as a Composite is
The Experiment under consideration.

Summary :
All of this is not 'scientific' but simply a practical approach
to puting : More Wire In-the-Air by using a specific feature
of theICE180 Matching Transfromer : The Taps.

- It doesn't work that way.

So Say You.

- You could add a wire to another and have less
- signal or more signal.

Usually More Wire In-the-Air -means- More Signal.

yes - i know that 'in-theory' i am wrong
-but- practically speaking i am . . .
sort-of kind-of right - iane ~RHF
*.

- No you are just wrong.

That's your 'opinion' and I do not Share It.


--
Telamon
Ventura, California