John Smith wrote:
Dave wrote:

...
Not when you're talking about VSWR.


Really? First time I have ever heard someone state that!

Pray tell, what laws of physics come into play, which disrupts reality,
when the antenna is fed from the ether (receiving), rather than
developing its' load into the ether? (transmitting)

Regards,
JS

"Pray tell"?

Alas and alack. Zounds!

Unfortunately, your editing is a bit severe and I have no idea what
you're talking about.

JB wrote:

...
Actually there is no reason TO have a resonant length antenna if you can
tune it electrically. After all, you may want to tune around some. I can
tell you it is a pain to have to go out and physically make adjustments for
any frequency excursion. There are many nonresonant length antennas that
outperform the resonant length. The 5/8 wave vertical comes to mind. A
long-wire provides a larger capture area. Then there are phased arrays that
reinforce. Look up the HAARP project and see how they made a very large
array and were able to electrically steer the pattern. Cool!

The more you know, the cheaper it gets, and the more you giggle when it
works. The only problem is you get hooked and want to do so much more.


Well, examine a mechanical tuning fork. They are cut to an exact
physical length for resonance, the are very sharp tuning. Now, it would
be possible to "lengthen" such a tuning fork with some coil of material,
or portion of a turn of material. There is a reason for this; as,
although it could be done, it would not be as efficient as one cut to
the exact length; plus, you would induce a high probability of increased
harmonics as a freq(s) which the fork was not created to induce ...
there are exact equivalents in the electrical world of RF ...

As you point out, physical length resonance is NOT a requirement ... it
is simply "best" ...

Regards,
JS

On Dec 27, 6:14*pm, John Smith wrote:
Dave wrote:
...
You are not "pumping" any more "power" into a non-resonant antenna.
Unless you are using a tuner you are heating up your finals.

First, your use of "resonant" is just plain confusing ...

All my multiband antennas, which I have ever use in life, are physically
resonate on but one freq (or band.) *On the others, they are only
electrically resonate (and, lossy loading components are used to effect
this.)

A matchbox can always improve the reception on a poorly designed
antenna, a mismatched antenna, a non-physically resonate antenna, etc.

John Smith,

OK then what is a 'matchbox' in :
* a poorly designed transmitting antenna,
* a mismatched transmitting antenna,
* a non-physically resonate transmitting antenna,

Consider the 'matchbox' to be one element
in the RF Energy Radiating System :
Feed-Line + 'matchbox' + Antenna Element

i want to know - iane ~ RHF

John Smith wrote:
Dave wrote:

...
I don't recognize "politician" as being a monolithic culture. There
are decent ones and there are many more ****-heads, but that holds
true for society in general.

I don't believe that.

Simply because, in the last 30+ years, I have NEVER seen ANYTHING get
any better--or, at least those things which are in the realm of things
influenced by politics, legislation produced by politicians, or for that
matter, ANYTHING done by politicians!

They are there because of their desire for either money, power, or both.
They support a shadow government solely for what benefits they, their
family and friends get from the individuals in this elite group.
Although, the above would be impossible to prove at this date; I
believe a through awareness and study of the direction "things"
constantly seem to be going in leaves one with no other possible
conclusion(s) ...

Regards,
JS

You pretend to be powerless to fight this...

Dave wrote:
John Smith wrote:
RHF wrote:

...
js - but alas i remain a simple shortwave listener
who simply enjoys listening to the radio; cause
practically speaking; that is what i do
- - - respectfully ~ RHF
.

Quit peeing on my leg ...

Brother, I enjoy having a good time, a good drink and the company of a
good woman as well as anyone; And, furthermore, I am here because I
enjoy a good antenna as well as anyone else.

I am here because some know much more than me, can explain it in a
manner which I can absorb (Cecil is but one example), and I expect
there is much more for us ALL to learn, indeed ...

I ain't here to lecture you ... I ain't here to be a ham ... I ain't
here to play the game of "one-up-man-ship"; I am here to catch what I
missed "the-first-time-around"--end-of-story.

But now, a good argument, a good debate, a good "theory-session" ...
count me in!

Sit back, and pick on the next guy in line ... ;-)

Regards,
JS

A random wire (e.g. inverted L) transmits nicely if you use a tuner at
the feed point.

A resonate 1/4 wave dipole transmits "nicely" and uses no lossy tuner
.... a resonate 1/4 wave vertical monopole, with drooping ground plane,
transmits "nicely", requires no lossy tuner, and is damn near a perfect
match to 50 ohm coax ...

A 1/2 wave version of either of the above produces a superior pattern
and can be matched with either a T-match or gamma-match ... indeed, a
very minimal counterpoise is all which is necessary--and, if things are
"perfect", not even that is needed, or simply a choke on they outside of
the coax a ~1/4 wave away from feed point. A 5/8 is non-resonate
physical length, and even demonstrates a superior pattern (at least on
paper and with antenna prediction software ... )

However, in side-by-side comparisons on 10-6-2m antennas I have built,
comparing a 5/8 against the 1/2 (construction methods/materials and
matching components identical) ... the actual difference, in the real
world, must be less than the width of a meter needle in the readings ...
or, put simply, I no longer deal with the extra length required of the
5/8 ... your mileage may vary ...

Regards,
JS

In article ,
Dave wrote:

John Smith wrote:
Dave wrote:

...
Not when you're talking about VSWR.


Really? First time I have ever heard someone state that!

Pray tell, what laws of physics come into play, which disrupts reality,
when the antenna is fed from the ether (receiving), rather than
developing its' load into the ether? (transmitting)

Regards,
JS

"Pray tell"?

Alas and alack. Zounds!

Unfortunately, your editing is a bit severe and I have no idea what
you're talking about.

He thinks transmitting and receiving antenna engineering is the same
thing and reciprocity rules all consideration thereof capture area be
damned. That's what happens when you have a pointy head. Go ahead
though as he loves to argue about pointless things.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article ,
Dave wrote:

John Smith wrote:
Dave wrote:

...
A random wire (e.g. inverted L) transmits nicely if you use a tuner at
the feed point.

Nicely is rather a broad term ...

And, if I am running 1KW+, or even multi-kilowatts, and the guy on the
other end is doing the same--we can communicate "nicely" on very poor
antennas ...

However, if I am running 5 watts, and the other guy is also, a properly
constructed antenna which has been designed around efficiency and most
desirable radiation pattern, along with having a correct impedance and
is matched EXACTLY to the equipment, and such is done without a lossy
"matchbox" or inefficient matching method--these would be of paramount
importance.

Physics, as much as math, is an EXACT science ... antennas are NOT in
realm of "art" (gray areas, open to interpretation, is a matter of
personal opinion, etc.), there is but one "best" antenna for any given
distance, terrain, pattern, etc.


Funny guy that Smith. He has entered the gray area of opinion as to what
is best.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

RHF wrote:

...
"N",

Don't know too many 'Hams' would would take 50 Feet
of common Speaker Wire and tie-a-knot at 30 Feet and
then split the two Wires in the remaining 20 Feet and
use the thing as a "Stealth" Dipole Antenna with their
Transmitter -but- a Shortwave Radio Listener (SWL)
can do that and have a very practical SWL Antenna
to use with many 'portable' AM&FM Shortwave Radios.

50-Ft. 24-Gauge Clear 2-Conductor Speaker Wire
RadioShack Catalog # 278-1301
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2102499

"n" - practically speaking {in practice} there is a
difference between between hams and swls ~ RHF
.
.


I have taken ordinary lamp zip cord, split the two leads apart to for a
1/4 wave dipole and fed the end of the remaining length of zip cord with
a balun to the rig (some zip cord is ~68-72 ohm balanced line, the
mismatch is more than acceptable for field/emergency use.)

Never, say never ... some ham will do it!

Regards,
JS

wrote:


Well, sure, but what does transmitting have to do with
anything? We are not talking about transmitting.
...

It has EVERYTHING to do with it, it is the same communication, both
ways, simply in reverse ... like I have stated before, the exact same
laws of physics governing the antenna makes it equally acceptable to
both transmitting and receiving. The same pattern seen in the signal
transmitted will be seen in the signal(s) received.

Your argument is the equivalent to arguing that a car designed to go
forward would not be acceptable when backing up ... simply ridiculous!

Regards,
JS

In article ,
Dave wrote:

RHF wrote:


Dave,

IIRC a good Amateur Radio 1/4 WL Vertical-Up-Leg
by 1/4 WL Horizontal-Out-Arm {Inverted "L" Antenna
requires very little Tuning and performs very well near
and far on the HF Band that it is 'cut' to use on.
Using a direct-connect or 1:1 UnUn at the Feed-Point
* Half-Wave Inverted "L" Antenna : 1/4 WL + 1/4 WL


Where-as the more common Shortwave Listener (SWL)
type of {Random Wire} Inverted "L" Antenna is un-equal
and usually has a shorter Vertical-Up-Leg and a longer
Horizontal-Out-Arm of at least 1V-to-2H and often
1V-to-3H or more. Using a 9:1 Matching Transformer
and Ground Rod at the Feed-Point which is at the base
of the Vertical-Up-Leg.



"Random" implies otherwise. Instead of a 9:1 UnUn, imagine one of these
at the feed point:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Produc...ductid=MFJ-927

I enjoy playing with these kind of things. So I got a license to
transmit. Some call that "elitist", I call it self-indulgent.

Remote tuners are the right way to do things. Much better than a tuner
in the shack.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California