On Jul 12, 1:42*am, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"Brenda Ann" wrote in message

news


"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. ..

The idea that there are musicologist-type DJs rummaging through thousands
of records is a myth, and in the few cases such exists or has existed,
most have failed.

Back in the day, KAPA in Raymond, WA used to have a library of literally
thousands of records, all in very nicely laid out libraries, from which
their announcers could retrieve pretty much anything they wanted to play.
The station did indeed finally fail.. but it was only AFTER it was bought
up by a corporate entity and pretty much driven into the ground.

Excellent. There are 14 thousand stations in the US, and you base your
conclusion on one of them.

The station, without knowing it, failed because it was a Class IV on 1340 in
a very sparsely populated county... where even today, a C2 FM only puts a
decent signal over 60,000 persons. And that county, unlike in the 50's, is
now invaded by many usable FMs from other nearby locations... yet it had a
monopoly when it went on in 1950.

Today, that AM is silent, like so many like it... KYOR in Blythe comes to
mind... because FMs had so much more coverage and there was no need for an
AM.

The fact that the station did not have a format did not help.



Corporate radio has ruined radio. Even in the heyday of network radio,
individual affiliate stations had their own programming, usually in the
daytime. Networks ruled the evenings with the great comedy and news
programs.

I'd suggest you revisit publications like Radex, as you can see that the
webs provided programming for much of the day, including the daytime drama
shows that evolved into soap operas. Many issues of Radex, with complete
programming schedules, are atwww.americanradio.com.

Network stations carried loads of daytime content, too.



A great many netcasting stations have thousands of tracks that they pick
and choose from. Almost none have a limited playlist (DMCA actually
PREVENTS it in cases where the stations are bothering to follow the law).

The DCMA has very few restrictions that would affect even the most limited
playlist in use today. There is a restriction on repeats, and in how many
songs by an artist that can be played together or in proximity...
specifically:

"In any three-hour period:
not more than three songs from the same recording
not more than two songs in a row from the same recording
not more than four songs from the same artist
not more than three songs in a row from the same artist
not more than four songs from the same anthology/box set
not more than three songs in a row from the same anthology/box set. "

The tightest Top 40 in the US which repeats some songs every 90 minutes
would break those rules... stations generally don't repeat an artist more
often than every 45 minutes, and they seldom would play that deep in a
particular recording or set.

So, a station with a 40 song library would be able to comply with the rules,
and they do. But since most CHRs have over 100 songs today, there is no
issue.

The problem with stations with thousands of songs is that nobody listens to
them.

yea right, thats why corporate radio, t.v., and papers, are doing so
well.
your type of thinking, is on its way out, pronto.

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...


Not so. Playlists existed back to the time of live bands at local radio
staitons... someone determined the songs the bands would play. And since
recorded music has been a staple of American radio, going back to the
rejection of the AFM rules and Petrillo's policies, stations have
pre-programmed music in almost every instance. In fact, the format
concept that "saved radio" in the early and mid-50's, Top 40, was based
entirely on the concept of a playlist and zero deviation from it.

The "Drake" format, a top 30 format, preceded the top 40 format. Even back
then, stations figured out that there is such a thing as limiting a
playlist TOO much. Something current broadcasters seem to have forgotten.

OMG.

Top 40's concept was developed by Todd Storz in 1952, and put on the air at
KOWH in Omaha in August of that year. By the mid 50's there were several
hundred top 40 stations in the US... and Canada, and Mexico and all over the
world.

Bill Drake's update of the format, developed in Fresno in 1963 and 1964,
debuted on KHJ in Los Angeles in 1965. While the existing Top 40's played
the 40 hits, Drake played those 40 hits but added "gold" songs to the
library and expanded the list to well over 100 songs. Drake never played a
top 30 list, ever. Did I say "ever?"

In fact, the "big deal" with Drake was that KHJ beat existing Top 40 LA
stations KFWB and KRLA in just a few months, and then KFRC in San Francisco
beat KEWB and KYA just as fast.

I had a top 40 on the air in Quito, Ecuador, a year before Drake debuted
KHJ.

You have your dates and formats and names reversed.

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
news
The station, without knowing it, failed because it was a Class IV on 1340
in a very sparsely populated county... where even today, a C2 FM only puts
a decent signal over 60,000 persons. And that county, unlike in the 50's,
is now invaded by many usable FMs from other nearby locations... yet it
had a monopoly when it went on in 1950.


1) KAPA was a damn fine station, with great local flavor and a good
community presence. I listened to it while I lived there most of the time,
even though KOL in Seattle put in a very good signal to the south, and
continued to listen when I lived in Astoria, because the signal they put in
there was quite good, and they had a better program than the (then) two
locals and a semi-local (KVAS, KAST and KSWB).

2) To quote a certain shill person "nobody listens to radio outside the
64dBu city contours" and "stations don't care about anyone outside their own
city contours... they do not count in the ratings." I know there was other
BS in there somewhere..

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 12:56 am, "David Eduardo" wrote:

It was always so for the vast majority of decades and stations. Just as
someone at a supermarket determines what products, sizes and varieties of
products to stock... and not stock, someone in each radio station
determines
what songs are played and not played.

today, a playlist from some corporate goon in new york determines
what gets played, and what does not. in my youth, i got to hear lots
of local garage bands get air time, then make it national.
today, that would not happen, its the playlist, and nothing else.

Actually, in most rated markets significant stations do local music research
and determine the playlist based on that local data. Given the hard economic
times, many stations have reduced such costs, but they make themselves
vulnerable to competitors...

It´s precisely the local research that shows that there is no interest in
the generally bad songs by the local bands, so they don't get played.

And just like the supermarket, which uses research, sales tabulations and
such to deteermine desirable procuts, radio does the same thing to decide
on
each song.

you are a kool aid drinker aren't you. many local grocery stores
stock products from small suppliers, with out all of the above goobly
gook.

How many people go to little local grocery stores if they have a choice? The
prices are higher, the assortment is limited, etc. In any case, customers
are going to want their preferred products no matter where they buy. The
bigger markets analyze sales data, and combined with promotional allowances
and such, calculate what will sell and have the most shelf turns and most
profit. They can even analyze how many inches of facing to give and at what
level and the resultant sales.


The idea that there are musicologist-type DJs rummaging through
thousands
of
records is a myth, and in the few cases such exists or has existed, most
have failed.

most have been taken over by corporate america, then came the play
lists.

Not so. Playlists existed back to the time of live bands at local radio
staitons... someone determined the songs the bands would play. And since
recorded music has been a staple of American radio, going back to the
rejection of the AFM rules and Petrillo's policies, stations have
pre-programmed music in almost every instance. In fact, the format concept
that "saved radio" in the early and mid-50's, Top 40, was based entirely
on
the concept of a playlist and zero deviation from it.


yes there has been in the past, except, they were flexible. today,
see if a jockey was to sneak in something not on the playlist, see
what would happen to such jockey. its why independents can no longer
get airtime, but when i was a kid, they did.
you are simply a hard wired free market apologist.


Stations had playlists in the 30's, just as they had lists of the
commercials they had to run, called a log.

yes they did. but the disk jockeys would not get fired if they dared
to play something not on the play list.

Hmm... in the mid 60's, the first person I fired as a PD was a guy who
played one song that was not approved.


at your station. back then, there were 1000's of independently owned
stations. are you telling me that they all operated the same?


And if you worked for Storz or McLendon or Burden or Crowell-Collier or
any
of the big operators of music stations in the 50's and broke format, you
were gone.


but, was there 10 companies or less that own just about all radio
stations in america? not!


nice try, in free market america, you have tons of choices, that are
almost all the same.

And that, in radio, is quite untrue.

i live in a metro area with about 3.5 million people, not only is
radio ****, so is t.v., and both daily papers. prior to 1981, it was
not so.

Probably the stations have adjusted to contemporary taste of the target
audience, which is generally 18-49 or 25-54, and you are either out of the
demographic or have not kept up with current taste.

snicker, infomercials are entertainment, that is how far we have
sunk. you are part of the problem, that is why corporate media is
failing.

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...

PARIS -- As the death toll in the American newspaper industry mounted
this month, the German publisher Axel Springer, which owns Bild, the
biggest newspaper in Europe, reported the highest profit in its 62-
year history.

Death toll? How many US papers have closed this year, to date? One in
Tucson, one in Denver, one in Seattle... and a couple more. In 1967, we lost
about 30 daily metro papers... all were either evening papers, which
succumbed to the Huntley Brinkley Report and to TV evening news in general,
or were the second paper in the morning in a metro. Guess what, the ones
that I named were all second papers, and there is not enough money for them.

So the article starts with an inaccurate statement, as if hundreds of papers
had closed when it is barely a handful.

And Axel Springer is expanding in things like controlling a major share of
online classifieds in his markets, as well as profitable specialty
magazines, radio, TV, the German equivalent of Amazon.com, etc., etc, etc.
All the revenue growth is in electronic media and new media.

"Nickname unavailable" wrote in message
...
On Jul 12, 1:09 am, "Brenda Ann" wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message

correct, go get the shill. i was in a local station more than once in
my youth, and i got to pick my own playlist from 1000's of 45's. then
the jockey played them.

Must have been a bad station in a small market or a really bad on in a
bigger one. In any case, nobody who knows radio would call the person on the
air a "jockey." Jockeys ride horses. Disk Jockeys may be called DJ's or
Jocks, but they ain't called jockeys.

today, corporate america has ruined not only radio, but t.v. and the
papers. they have loaded them up with debt, and severe restrictions
that make them bland, conservative in nature, safe.

There are 14,000 radio stations in the US, and perhaps 1000 are burdened
with seemingly irresolvable debt issues. None would have had any trouble
were it not for the recession, so you are doing the equivalent of blaming
debt for the failure of Chrysler and GM, when it was the perfect storm of
labor commitments, bad designs and horrible quality that came about due to
the recession.

Yes, a few companies are in trouble in radio due to debt. Most are not.

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
news
The station, without knowing it, failed because it was a Class IV on 1340
in a very sparsely populated county... where even today, a C2 FM only
puts a decent signal over 60,000 persons. And that county, unlike in the
50's, is now invaded by many usable FMs from other nearby locations...
yet it had a monopoly when it went on in 1950.


1) KAPA was a damn fine station, with great local flavor and a good
community presence. I listened to it while I lived there most of the time,
even though KOL in Seattle put in a very good signal to the south, and
continued to listen when I lived in Astoria, because the signal they put
in there was quite good, and they had a better program than the (then) two
locals and a semi-local (KVAS, KAST and KSWB).

The problem is that, given a station with good programming that is
entertaining, listeners abandon "community presence" and "local flavor"
instantly just as they abandoned the local hamburger joint when McDonalds
openened.

Lots of really good local AMs have been swept away by big FM signals coming
on the air in the 70's and 80's. The smart ones bought FMs, too. The others
failed and go through new owners every few years.

2) To quote a certain shill person "nobody listens to radio outside the
64dBu city contours" and "stations don't care about anyone outside their
own city contours... they do not count in the ratings." I know there was
other BS in there somewhere..

The minute that little market was penetrated by numerous FMs it was over for
the Class IV no matter what you think of its programming.

And analysis of millions of listener weeks of recorded listening over nearly
a decade shows that there is very little listening outside the 64 dbu of FMs
at work or at home, and much of that is because the radios of the last few
decades can't pick up much of anything less than that with acceptable
quality. When I see nearly no exceptions that would validate your
contention, I must conclude that you are imagining things.

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

And analysis of millions of listener weeks of recorded listening over
nearly a decade shows that there is very little listening outside the 64
dbu of FMs at work or at home, and much of that is because the radios of
the last few decades can't pick up much of anything less than that with
acceptable quality. When I see nearly no exceptions that would validate
your contention, I must conclude that you are imagining things.

How many of those studies were done outside huge metros?

I've lived in towns with their own FM's where the 64 dBu contour didn't
cover the transmitter site parking lot. One example was KLER-FM in Orofino,
ID. Their tower was BELOW average terrain, and they were running 100 watts,
and couldn't cover a significant portion of the very small town they are
located in. Since then, they have raised their tower height and power, but
given the terrain, probably don't have a much better coverage. It may be an
exaggeration, but not much of one, to say that some educational stations
wouldn't have a 64 dBu signal if you connected the meter directly to the
transmitter..

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

And analysis of millions of listener weeks of recorded listening over
nearly a decade shows that there is very little listening outside the 64
dbu of FMs at work or at home, and much of that is because the radios of
the last few decades can't pick up much of anything less than that with
acceptable quality. When I see nearly no exceptions that would validate
your contention, I must conclude that you are imagining things.

How many of those studies were done outside huge metros?

Almost every county in the US is part of some metro. The non-measured
counties are only a couple of percrent of the total US population... and
they are not measured because the ability to get a sample is very hard.

For example, in Washington only Asotin county is not measured, and in Oregon
only Curry and Lake are not in. In some states like Ohio, every county is
measured. In Michigan, only a couple of very sparsely populated UP counties
are not in the sample of some metro, plus tiny Alcona County in NE Michigan.

The studies essentially looked at all diary returns. FM showed 95% of
listening in the 64 dbu for attributable in home and at work listening, no
matter what market... and it comes down to the ability of radios to pick up
acceptably anything less, not desire to listen.

I've lived in towns with their own FM's where the 64 dBu contour didn't
cover the transmitter site parking lot. One example was KLER-FM in
Orofino, ID. Their tower was BELOW average terrain, and they were running
100 watts, and couldn't cover a significant portion of the very small town
they are located in. Since then, they have raised their tower height and
power, but given the terrain, probably don't have a much better coverage.
It may be an exaggeration, but not much of one, to say that some
educational stations wouldn't have a 64 dBu signal if you connected the
meter directly to the transmitter..

And it would not be an exaggeration to say nobody listens, but finding out
if it is because the station has lousy programming or no coverage is a
different and subjective issue.

The 64 of KLER covers less than 9000 people, but it does cover the market...
such as it is.

I've seen plenty of stations with negative HAATs that did marvelously, but
it was due to the height averaging working in their favor.

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...
How many of those studies were done outside huge metros?

Almost every county in the US is part of some metro. The non-measured
counties are only a couple of percrent of the total US population... and
they are not measured because the ability to get a sample is very hard.


You do realize that 2% of 300 million people is a substantial 6,000,000
people?


I've lived in towns with their own FM's where the 64 dBu contour didn't
cover the transmitter site parking lot. One example was KLER-FM in
Orofino, ID. Their tower was BELOW average terrain, and they were running
100 watts, and couldn't cover a significant portion of the very small
town they are located in. Since then, they have raised their tower height
and power, but given the terrain, probably don't have a much better
coverage. It may be an exaggeration, but not much of one, to say that
some educational stations wouldn't have a 64 dBu signal if you connected
the meter directly to the transmitter..

And it would not be an exaggeration to say nobody listens, but finding out
if it is because the station has lousy programming or no coverage is a
different and subjective issue.

The 64 of KLER covers less than 9000 people, but it does cover the
market... such as it is.


Is that the current stats, or the old ones under the 100 watt signal 300'
HBAT? Gads, that was TERRIBLE.. and their engineering was atrocious... the
stereo balance severely favored the left channel.