On 9/29/10 01:28 , SMS wrote:
On 9/28/2010 9:49 PM, RHF wrote:

Conclusion : Why DAB Eureka 147 failed in the UK :
Maybe the reason IBOC "HD" AM& FM Radio will
succeed in the USA.

Two things led to the IBOC solution in the U.S.:

1) There was no spectrum available for a digital-only service.

2) Broadcasters wanted an IBOC solution because it did not require the
purchase of additional spectrum or licenses.

Now there's talk of a new digital-only band in the space where analog TV
channels 5 and 6 used to be. This would be especially well suited to low
power FM stations. It would likely use iBiquity technology as well
because the silicon used for HD Radio could be easily modified for the
new band. With the low power stations moved off of FM there would be
less of an issue with increased power on HD FM causing interference to
those stations. The big issue with HD right now is that the power levels
are too low to provide equivalent coverage to FM.

The addition/adoption of HD has striking parallels to the
addition/adoption of FM radio in the 20th century. It took FM 40 years
to become as ubiquitous as AM. Those that complain that HD is taking too
long to become ubiquitous have no understanding of the radio business
and how hard it is to replace the installed base of receivers.

In any case, it all is coming together for HD in the U.S. with huge
increases in receiver sales, more vehicle manufacturers including HD,
and the HD consortium deciding to assist smaller stations with the
conversion to HD by helping with funding and engineering expertise that
the smaller stations lack.

Two areas where your analogy breaks down.

One is that FM worked. Hybrid Digital...not so much. FM
presented a listenable improvement in audio performance that even
the tone deaf could recognize. Many users of Hybrid Digital do not
agree that the audio performance measures up to the claims made for it.

The other is that the market has changed from the days of early
FM, when the listening opportunities were limited. AM, or recordings
that were noisy, of questionable reproductive quality, and irregular
availability. Further, receivers were bulky, heavy and not portably
operated with any convenience. Batteries were expensive.

Today, the reproduction of recordings is remarkably consistent,
and of very high comparative quality. They are also globally
available for a fraction of the cost of recordings in the days of
early FM. And a person can put his/her entire recording library in a
shirt pocket, on a device with a battery life of many hours,
rechargable at one's own convenience. Often from a variety of
sources. There are also myriad options for listening of programmed
content. AM, of course, and FM, as well as internet radio, streamed
audio on cell phones, satellite radio, and self programmed 'radio
channels' accessible, often at a whim.

None of these offers the dropouts, and the Hybrid Digital to
Analog to Hybrid Digital switching offered by IBOC.

So, while the lamp isn't out for HD radio, at least not yet, the
comparison with the early days of FM does not really possess the
parallels as claimed.

Going back to the beginning days of this discussion: for IBOC to
take off, there will have to be a mandate by FCC that analog
broadcasting is to end.

On 9/29/2010 6:21 AM, D. Peter Maus wrote:
On 9/29/10 01:28 , SMS wrote:
On 9/28/2010 9:49 PM, RHF wrote:

Conclusion : Why DAB Eureka 147 failed in the UK :
Maybe the reason IBOC "HD" AM& FM Radio will
succeed in the USA.

Two things led to the IBOC solution in the U.S.:

1) There was no spectrum available for a digital-only service.

2) Broadcasters wanted an IBOC solution because it did not require the
purchase of additional spectrum or licenses.

Now there's talk of a new digital-only band in the space where analog TV
channels 5 and 6 used to be. This would be especially well suited to low
power FM stations. It would likely use iBiquity technology as well
because the silicon used for HD Radio could be easily modified for the
new band. With the low power stations moved off of FM there would be
less of an issue with increased power on HD FM causing interference to
those stations. The big issue with HD right now is that the power levels
are too low to provide equivalent coverage to FM.

The addition/adoption of HD has striking parallels to the
addition/adoption of FM radio in the 20th century. It took FM 40 years
to become as ubiquitous as AM. Those that complain that HD is taking too
long to become ubiquitous have no understanding of the radio business
and how hard it is to replace the installed base of receivers.

In any case, it all is coming together for HD in the U.S. with huge
increases in receiver sales, more vehicle manufacturers including HD,
and the HD consortium deciding to assist smaller stations with the
conversion to HD by helping with funding and engineering expertise that
the smaller stations lack.

Two areas where your analogy breaks down.

One is that FM worked. Hybrid Digital...not so much. FM presented a
listenable improvement in audio performance that even the tone deaf
could recognize. Many users of Hybrid Digital do not agree that the
audio performance measures up to the claims made for it.

No, not true. Many people that have never listened to HD claim poor
audio performance, but they have no experience with HD. Many have a
vested interest in the failure of digital radio. Every independent
review of HD FM has noted the superior audio quality and the lack of
interference.

Going back to the beginning days of this discussion: for IBOC to take
off, there will have to be a mandate by FCC that analog broadcasting is
to end.

Not really necessary. Sufficient numbers of stations in the urban
markets have voluntarily added HD. What would be helpful is the
elimination of royalties on the receiver side combined with a mandate
that all receivers after a certain date be able to receive HD. Financial
incentives for stations to increase their HD power levels to the maximum
allowable levels would also help. But he HD consortium deciding to
assist smaller stations with the conversion to HD by helping with
funding and engineering expertise that the smaller stations lack, is
going to help as well.

On Sep 29, 6:21*am, "D. Peter Maus" wrote:
On 9/29/10 01:28 , SMS wrote:



On 9/28/2010 9:49 PM, RHF wrote:

Conclusion : Why DAB Eureka 147 failed in the UK :
Maybe the reason IBOC "HD" AM& FM Radio will
succeed in the USA.

Two things led to the IBOC solution in the U.S.:

1) There was no spectrum available for a digital-only service.

2) Broadcasters wanted an IBOC solution because it did not require the
purchase of additional spectrum or licenses.

Now there's talk of a new digital-only band in the space where analog TV
channels 5 and 6 used to be. This would be especially well suited to low
power FM stations. It would likely use iBiquity technology as well
because the silicon used for HD Radio could be easily modified for the
new band. With the low power stations moved off of FM there would be
less of an issue with increased power on HD FM causing interference to
those stations. The big issue with HD right now is that the power levels
are too low to provide equivalent coverage to FM.

The addition/adoption of HD has striking parallels to the
addition/adoption of FM radio in the 20th century. It took FM 40 years
to become as ubiquitous as AM. Those that complain that HD is taking too
long to become ubiquitous have no understanding of the radio business
and how hard it is to replace the installed base of receivers.

In any case, it all is coming together for HD in the U.S. with huge
increases in receiver sales, more vehicle manufacturers including HD,
and the HD consortium deciding to assist smaller stations with the
conversion to HD by helping with funding and engineering expertise that
the smaller stations lack.

* *Two areas where your analogy breaks down.

* *One is that FM worked. *Hybrid Digital...not so much. FM
presented a listenable improvement in audio performance that even
the tone deaf could recognize. Many users of Hybrid Digital do not
agree that the audio performance measures up to the claims made for it.

* *The other is that the market has changed from the days of early
FM, when the listening opportunities were limited. AM, or recordings
that were noisy, of questionable reproductive quality, and irregular
availability. Further, receivers were bulky, heavy and not portably
operated with any convenience. Batteries were expensive.

* *Today, the reproduction of recordings is remarkably consistent,
and of very high comparative quality. They are also globally
available for a fraction of the cost of recordings in the days of
early FM. And a person can put his/her entire recording library in a
shirt pocket, on a device with a battery life of many hours,
rechargable at one's own convenience. Often from a variety of
sources. There are also myriad options for listening of programmed
content. AM, of course, and FM, as well as internet radio, streamed
audio on cell phones, satellite radio, and self programmed 'radio
channels' accessible, often at a whim.

* *None of these offers the dropouts, and the Hybrid Digital to
Analog to Hybrid Digital switching offered by IBOC.

* *So, while the lamp isn't out for HD radio, at least not yet, the
comparison with the early days of FM does not really possess the
parallels as claimed.

-*Going back to the beginning days of this discussion:
- for IBOC to take off, there will have to be a mandate
- by FCC that analog broadcasting is to end.

and . . . when does that other shoe drop . . .
in what year 2015... 2020 . . .

On 9/29/10 09:12 , SMS wrote:
On 9/29/2010 6:21 AM, D. Peter Maus wrote:
On 9/29/10 01:28 , SMS wrote:
On 9/28/2010 9:49 PM, RHF wrote:

Conclusion : Why DAB Eureka 147 failed in the UK :
Maybe the reason IBOC "HD" AM& FM Radio will
succeed in the USA.

Two things led to the IBOC solution in the U.S.:

1) There was no spectrum available for a digital-only service.

2) Broadcasters wanted an IBOC solution because it did not require the
purchase of additional spectrum or licenses.

Now there's talk of a new digital-only band in the space where analog TV
channels 5 and 6 used to be. This would be especially well suited to low
power FM stations. It would likely use iBiquity technology as well
because the silicon used for HD Radio could be easily modified for the
new band. With the low power stations moved off of FM there would be
less of an issue with increased power on HD FM causing interference to
those stations. The big issue with HD right now is that the power levels
are too low to provide equivalent coverage to FM.

The addition/adoption of HD has striking parallels to the
addition/adoption of FM radio in the 20th century. It took FM 40 years
to become as ubiquitous as AM. Those that complain that HD is taking too
long to become ubiquitous have no understanding of the radio business
and how hard it is to replace the installed base of receivers.

In any case, it all is coming together for HD in the U.S. with huge
increases in receiver sales, more vehicle manufacturers including HD,
and the HD consortium deciding to assist smaller stations with the
conversion to HD by helping with funding and engineering expertise that
the smaller stations lack.

Two areas where your analogy breaks down.

One is that FM worked. Hybrid Digital...not so much. FM presented a
listenable improvement in audio performance that even the tone deaf
could recognize. Many users of Hybrid Digital do not agree that the
audio performance measures up to the claims made for it.

No, not true. Many people that have never listened to HD claim poor
audio performance, but they have no experience with HD. Many have a
vested interest in the failure of digital radio. Every independent
review of HD FM has noted the superior audio quality and the lack of
interference.

While it's true, there are those who have a vested interest in teh
failure of IBOC, I"m not referrring to those. I refer specifically
to those who have heard Hybrid Digital, and have attempted to use
Hybrid Digital Radio, and have found that it's audio performance
fails to meet what's been claimed for it.

I'm one of them. And I've participated in conducting listening
tests. I've also read page after page of complaints of users not
impressed by HD's performance.

I've been in stores when Hybrid Digital receivers have been
returned for non performance.

So...Yes, true. Many users of Hybrid Digital do not agree that the
performance measures up to what's been claimed for it.




Going back to the beginning days of this discussion: for IBOC to take
off, there will have to be a mandate by FCC that analog broadcasting is
to end.

Not really necessary. Sufficient numbers of stations in the urban
markets have voluntarily added HD. What would be helpful is the
elimination of royalties on the receiver side combined with a mandate
that all receivers after a certain date be able to receive HD. Financial
incentives for stations to increase their HD power levels to the maximum
allowable levels would also help. But he HD consortium deciding to
assist smaller stations with the conversion to HD by helping with
funding and engineering expertise that the smaller stations lack, is
going to help as well.

What broadcasters choose to do is one thing. What listeners
choose to purchase is another.

Listeners have not embraced HD. Streams are being discontinued in
markets across the country.

But you have conveniently not addressed the issue of marketplace.
There are dramatically more sources for listening to content than
there were in the early days of FM. The audio quality of recordings
can now exceed the audio performance of broadcast en masse. And
users can now put their entire library of recordings in their pockets.

All of which paints a much different picture than that faced by
FM in it's own infancy.

Hybrid Digital Radio may, indeed, become a success.

But, dramatically more likely, is that, like DAT, it's a solution
for which the problem has been more effectively, and more
efficiently addressed by newer, and more readily accessible
technologies.

In any event, for users to make that conversion, en masse, and
make Hybrid Digital Radio a going concern, there will have to be a
mandate that the current scheme of broadcasting will end. Which may
happen. There is powerful money behind Hybrid Digital. And
considerable political will.

But it will take a political solution to make the investment pay
returns before The Money goes in a different direction.

On 9/29/10 10:16 , SMS wrote:



All the misinformation you see promulgated by those opposed to HD Radio
is based _solely_ on their objection to the royalty model of iBiquity,
not on any valid technological objections.

Numerous papers written by broadcast engineers say otherwise.

Several of them were published in Radio World over the last few
years. All of them objected on technical grounds.

One engineer--someone who posted here, in fact--also mentioned
that iBiquity threatened legal action for criticism of the Hybrid
Digital Radio system

A system of quality, that meets the needs of the customers,
requires no such thuggery to protect it.

That alone raises questions about it's operation.

On Sep 29, 8:16 am, SMS wrote:
On 9/29/2010 7:25 AM, RHF wrote:

and . . . when does that other shoe drop . . .
in what year 2015... 2020 . . .

- It will be similar to the transition to digital television, though
- longer. First there will be a requirement that all new receivers be
- capable of receiving digital, then after x number of years there
will be
- a requirement to turn off analog (no doubt with some extensions).
2020
- is probably too early. With television, since so few are mobile
- receivers, it was easy to do adapter boxes for digital but with
radio
- this is unlikely since the adapter would be too costly and too
cumbersome.

No simply by Ramping-Up the Digital Power every
two to three Years over a Two Decades
-and- At the same time Ramping-Down the Analog
Power over the same number of years.

This Works for FM HD-Radio Only :
Digital Power Up -and- Analog Power Down
Year 2005 : Digital 1% -&- Analog 99%
Year 2010 : Digital 10% -&- Analog 90%
Year 2013 : Digital 12% -&- Analog 75%
Year 2016 : Digital 14% -&- Analog 60%
Year 2019 : Digital 16% -&- Analog 45%
Year 2022 : Digital 18% -&- Analog 30%
Year 2025 : Digital 20% -&- Analog 15%
Year 2025 : Digital 20% -&- Analog 00%

AM/MW IBOC is a Different Animal : For the
AM/MW Radio Band with a Digital IBOC Signal
a 1 KW "Local" Analog Radio Station and a
50 KW Clear Channel Radio Station Do Not
Work along side each other in an All Digital
Radio Band [1KW versus 50KW]

Digital AM Radio Power Ranges really will only
work in a more 'Localized' Compressed Set of
Power Ranges :
* 500 Watts Local ~ 25 Miles
{Both Days and Nights}
* 1500 Watts Metro ~ 50 Miles
{Maybe reduced to 1000 Watts Nights}
4500 Watts Regional ~ 100 Miles
{Maybe reduced to 3000 Watts Nights}

?WHY? a 'Localized' Compressed Set of Power
Ranges ?
The reason 'why' is the IBOC Digital Side-Bands will
effectively make all AM/MW Radio Broadcasting "Local"
-and- having a Higher Powered AM/MW Radio Station
will simply be having a Digital Hash Jammer on one to
two channels on each side of it for hundreds of Miles
outside of it's Licensed Broadcast Service Area.

Presently the old 50 KW 'The Clears" have a 'revised'
750 Mile 'protected' Range in the Analog Mode :
This is NOT Compatible with the IBOC Digital Mode
-so- There needs to be a 2nd Revision for the now
former "Clears" to a Regional 100 Mile 'protected'
Range in IBOC Digital Mode with a Power limit of
under 5 KW {4500 Watts}. to insure that their Digital
Side-Bands Hash does not extend to far into 'other'
Media Markets and effective JAM other Broadcasters.

On Sep 29, 12:56*pm, dave wrote:
SMS wrote:

All the misinformation you see promulgated by those opposed to HD Radio
is based _solely_ on their objection to the royalty model of iBiquity,
not on any valid technological objections. Such a position is
understandable since it does seem unfair that a private company profits
from a monopoly of their system (though the real profits are actually
made by the equipment manufacturers).

Is adjacent channel interference "misinfornation"? The way I see it,
this HD BS is just to crowd out LPFM (the old dreaded Class D stations
from the '60s).

- You talk like 'Dwardo.

'Special Dave' -that's- D'Eduardo !

When Numbers Count : You Can Count on . . .
Count D'Eduardo "Grand Duke of the Arbiton"

that is provided you are not one of the count-less,
un-count-able, no-a-counts over the age of . . .
60 . . . a little lower please
55 . . . a little lower please
50 . . . a little lower please
how low can you go . . . ~ RHF