On 5/13/2011 2:26 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:

...
There is a moral question there.

But saying "torture doesn't work" is a practical argument, not a moral
argument. If torture doesn't advance our national goals, then we
should move onto moral arguments. If it hurts our national goals,
then we don't need to go that far.

So the next step of this comparison is to determine whether shooting
bin Laden advanced or hurt our national goals. That is a practical
question, not a moral question.


You either play by the rules all the time, hold high standards, all the
time, etc.

If not, there is suddenly no difference between "the good guy" and "the
bad guy", and, this is exactly how our public servants and the illegal
government they have replaced the peoples' will and vote with has
become, "Public Enemy No. 1."

We need to end this ...

Regards,
JS

On Fri, 13 May 2011 14:33:51 -0700, John Smith
wrote:

You either play by the rules all the time, hold high standards, all the
time, etc.

If not, there is suddenly no difference between "the good guy" and "the
bad guy", and, this is exactly how our public servants and the illegal
government they have replaced the peoples' will and vote with has
become, "Public Enemy No. 1."

I don't need to convince people whose morality says no torture ever.

But for those who believe that National Security overrides morality -
I have the argument - which is pushed by people such as John McCain -
that torture does not help our National Security, but in fact hurts
it.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

On 5/13/2011 6:07 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2011 14:33:51 -0700, John
wrote:

You either play by the rules all the time, hold high standards, all the
time, etc.

If not, there is suddenly no difference between "the good guy" and "the
bad guy", and, this is exactly how our public servants and the illegal
government they have replaced the peoples' will and vote with has
become, "Public Enemy No. 1."

I don't need to convince people whose morality says no torture ever.

But for those who believe that National Security overrides morality -
I have the argument - which is pushed by people such as John McCain -
that torture does not help our National Security, but in fact hurts
it.


Put simply, there are crimes against men, and there are crimes against
humanity ... torture is against humanity. Its' evil permeates every
level of evil with exists.

The fact that serial killers would pay you for the job of torturing
those people it would committed on is a good indication of just how evil
it is ...

Regards,
JS