"WilleeCue" wrote:
If that is the case then you sir are not doing
your job representing the public. If you know
there is someing shady going on you are
obgliated to speak out in defense of the public
or let someone else that will have the job.


As far as I know, it's not his job to review the overall business
transaction.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Jack" wrote:

BTW, I just love those artificial municipal fees...
I was forced to pay $150 per year for snow
plowing fees in a community where it snowed
maybe once or twice a year and usually not
more than an inch at most! Most years they
never plowed a single road. My particular street
NEVER saw a snow plow in the 20 years my
family lived there.


On a side note, something similar could be said about related city or town
taxes. Many years ago, the city here started collecting taxes to subsidize
curb-side garbage pick-up. Those taxes were raised many times over the
years. A few years ago, the city decided to end that service, requiring
residents who want garbage pick-up to pay for it themselves. Of course, as
you can guess, the taxes supporting that were never stopped. We're still
paying those same taxes today, but the money is simply being used for
something else.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
link.net...

City ordanances often cover that situation - no CC&R or Homeowners
Association required.

Many additions in my area are not in the city. The only county requirement
is to cut your yard one time a year. No county rule about having junk cars
in your driveway either. CC&R is what keeps the new neighborhoods have nice
yards. We have one trashy family that lived in our addition that would
never cut their grass and had junk cars just sitting. That is just as worse
as those people who put up their ugly antennas. If I move into a
neighborhood where antennas are banned and my neighbor uses a new law to put
one up, mine will go up as soon as he takes his down and his 4-sale sign
goes up. Hope it doesn't cause some possible buyer to reconsider due to the
stupid looking antenna towering above in the neighbors yard. Funny thing is
that if a few people said why they didn't buy, I wonder if this die hard ham
would have the balls to actually ask me to take it down until he sold the
home. I think such a person would...they usually are only out for
themselves.

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 11:33:22 GMT, "Midwest Kid"
wrote:


"Jack" wrote in message
.. .

You want *other* people to abide by rules set by their communities but
you don't seem to be able to live even with your own rules. Damn
hypocrite, I say!

There are no rules. If someone puts up a huge antenna in our
neighborhood....fine. I will then put up something that looks just as
stupid. Many of the people in my area who have huge antennas usually live
more rural and don't live in an addition. I am also only talking about
these super high antennas. A very small antenna wouldn't bother me too
much. Thing is that if I decided to make my yard an antenna field and put
about 3-4 high antennas on my roof to cover everything, then ham wouldn't

I shot this from my neighbor's back yard on the 13th of this month
(Nov 2003)
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower30.htm

I had to get a building permit for a tower this size and it had to
conform to the proper engineering standards. (the guy anchors weigh
17,000# each. The lower guys are 4,000# working strength and the top
set are over 6,000).

I'm the only ham in the subdivision and within one and a half to two
miles that has a tower up. I've never received an RFI complaint with
the exception of one neighbor having a foot ball party in their garage
and the TV set had rabbit ears. I gave them a spare antenna for the
set in their garage. It's a good neighborhood except for one guy (5
houses away) who has one of those big mercury vapor lights on the face
of a small shed that serves as a reflector and shines right into out
back yard. So much for the Amateur Astronomy.

care. However, something tells me that if he/she had to sell their home
they would take down their antenna first and ask me to do the same if a
realtor said my antennas were driving potential buyers away. That's the
hypocrisy I don't like.

It's not likely to happen around here. People are far more worried
about the county wanting to build a *big* jail about 300 yards to the
south. One neighbor directly south of me and east of the spot where I
shot the photo had their property appraised to refinance. The realtor
dropped their appraised value by $10,000 and specifically stated it
was due to the *likely hood* of the jail across the road. So much for
the county telling us it won't affect out property values.

You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...

I shot this from my neighbor's back yard on the 13th of this month
(Nov 2003)
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower30.htm

I had to get a building permit for a tower this size and it had to
conform to the proper engineering standards. (the guy anchors weigh
17,000# each. The lower guys are 4,000# working strength and the top
set are over 6,000).


Exactly how tall is this big one? I'm green with envy.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:23:59 GMT, "Dee D. Flint"
wrote:


"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
.. .

I shot this from my neighbor's back yard on the 13th of this month
(Nov 2003)
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower30.htm

I had to get a building permit for a tower this size and it had to
conform to the proper engineering standards. (the guy anchors weigh
17,000# each. The lower guys are 4,000# working strength and the top
set are over 6,000).


Exactly how tall is this big one? I'm green with envy.

Thanks! :-))


Twas all put up by hand too:-)) Which is why it took me nigh onto
two years to finish. Well, it'll never be finished as long as it's
up, but ...

The Tower is a 97 foot ROHN 45G. The antennas are mounted on steel
tubing which runs through thrust bearings at the top and about 12
feet below the top of the tower to a BogBoy Rotor.

The TH-5 tri-bander is at 100 feet, the 7 element C3i 6-meter beam
(with 28'10" boom) is at 115 feet. The 144 and 440 vertically
polarized arrays are on a cross boom at 130 feet.

If you change that link to tower.htm
( http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower.htm ) it should link
to the whole story or just go to my home page, table of contents, and
click on "My Tower Project". There are also some shots of the
"office" end as well.

There is one photo of installing the TH-5 that will give a good idea
as to the scale of the antennas. Note a lot of that antenna work was
done in the winter with some pretty low wind chills.

"Doing it myself" was an educational and fun project, plus it saved a
whale of a lot of money. I have some fears if the county puts a jail
within 300 yards we won't be able to coexist and that'd mean moving.
I'd pretty much have to resort to having a professional crew come in,
take the tower down and then reinstall it where ever we moved which
would cost a small fortune which I'm not sure I could afford.

This is a nice quiet, rural subdivision with lots of Deer, Wild
Turkeys, and other critters that come right up in the yard.

BTW, IF you have a fast connection there is a panoramic view from the
top of the tower at
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/towerview.htm It's a huge
file of roughly 19 Megs so it'd be a lost cause with dial-up. It's
not a great image as the images didn't match perfectly and created
some artifacts where they are stitched together. (I was standing on
the tower top plate with the wind gusting 20 MPH or so when I shot the
photos hand held) I'm going to build a bracket and attach the camera
to the mast. Then shoot an image about every 15 degrees as the
antennas are turned. Unfortunately the landscape is now much less
colorful.

73

Roger (K8RI)

You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:40:16 GMT, "Midwest Kid"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
Thank you.... .......

I am moving into a housing plan with such antenna restrictions. But
what housing plan doesn't have them. There is always someone trying to
tell some else how to live their lives, or knows what's best for you.

You people amaze me. If you don't like covenants, then don't move into the
neighborhood. The whole reason for the rules are to keep everything in
check. Something tells me that neither of you would wants someone putting
up some rusted out, 1970s RV and using it as a shed if the rules made that
'illegal'

The point: Many times it's not possible to purchase a home any where
near work, or schools, or convenient shopping without finding
restrictive CC&Rs. For instance in California you quite conceivably
might find it necessary to move a 100 miles to find such an area.
It's my understanding that there are a great many restrictions on
antennas in Florida.

Here? These are ordinances, not CC&Rs, I have to keep my grass mowed,
I can not keep cars up on blocks. I can not park a mobile home along
side the house for more than a couple months. I can not leave a motor
home parked in the driveway, or along side the house for more than a
couple of months, but I can build a garage big enough to park it
inside. I can not build a separate garage or shop larger than my
home. Virtually any major repair requires a building permit. There are
restrictions on outside antennas *except* for hams. "In recognition
for the service provided to the community" there are no restrictions
on ham antennas, but there are safety regulations. I have to abide by
the "set back" rules the same as anyone else and towers taller than 80
feet require a building permit and must be properly engineered. Using
the engineering data in the ROHN catalog is permitted.

We (hams) have a very good working relationship with the county. When
they built their new Law Enforcement Center the Emergency Operations
Center in it included a ham station. The mobile EOC van also has a
ham station built in. These are not just 2-meter FM mobiles either.

In addition, we are working on small, limited range portable repeaters
for voice, data, and video in conjunction with the EOC.

Some years back I served as the communications for one of the
evacuation centers when a train with some really nasty stuff, derailed
quite some distance away. That operation took a lot of hams as the
evacuation area was quite large. We were fortunate that the wind
pretty much favored us, but it changed enough that the shelter where I
was located had to be moved *in a hurry*. (I now carry a gas mask
in my kit) Moving a whole bunch of people who have just been awakened
at 2 AM, through a cloud of *stuff* that makes it difficult to breathe
and very limited visibility is an experience.

Where is here? Homer Township, Midland County Michigan.

You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:07:32 GMT, "Midwest Kid"
wrote:


"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

I can understand where people have a right to not want someone storing a
dozen rusty cars on their front lawn, or allowing their grass to get 3'
tall.. but as far as antennas, etc.. they have no business telling a
homeowner what to do. It's not right that they should be telling people
what color they can paint their house, what kind of plants or animals they
can or cannot have, etc..

Then why the hell is it 'right' that they tell your neighbor they can't have
12 rusty cars in their yard? If you want to live without rules, get an
older farm house or something. Don't move into a neighborhood and then
complain about the rules you disagree with.

And that would solve what LOL
The majority of the land around here is zoned although the zoning
varies from township to township and county to county.

Here, even if you own the biggest farm in the region you still can't
have a pile of rusty cars in your yard. Now you could get your area
rezoned commercial and then get a license and then create a junk yard,
but it's more difficult to get farm land rezoned than to put a junk
yard near a residential area. You'd probably stand a better chance of
trying for the center of main street down town.


I attended a township meeting in another county and high on their list
was going after some guy who kept hauling junk into his yard against
zoning. (they figured most of it was stolen but old iron pipe and
tanks are difficult to trace).Another was some one with a bunch of old
tires laying out back. Besides being unsightly they are a health
hazard (mosquitoes and West Nile Virus) along with being a fire
hazard. One pile in a neighboring county caught fire. Now there was
a fire. There were over a million tires in that pile and it was a
legal storage.

Zoning tends to be along the lines of common sense. Safety for one
thing. CC&Rs OTOH are what some one wants to see, or not see, done or
not done, conformity. The ham tower serves a function whether of the
greatest aesthetic appeal or not. The rusty cars benefit no one
except possibly the owner.

So to when it comes to CC&Rs Vs ordinances. CC&Rs are open to
interpretation by the HOAs and they can change those interpretations.

Say you move into a nice subdivision and like many the CC&Rs are so
vague you need to get a legal opinion. Not satisfied you have the
head of the HOA give you his/her opinion. As far as they are
concerned you can put up that 100 foot tower on your 4 acre million
dollar lot with the two million dollar home. You purchase, move in,
put up the tower and get a visit from the members of the HOA who tell
you the tower must come down. You point out the discussion with the
head of the HOA and they simply state they must work in unison and
he/she does not speak for the entire HOA.

Say you had the foresight to get the contract in writing. The same as
above applies. Or they can downright change their minds as to the
interpretation. Now with a lengthy legal battle and I assume any one
owning a house and lot worth three million could afford to do that,
there is no guarantee you'd win. Also due to being the outsider you
would open yourself up for harassment which you might have a difficult
time proving.

So back up to the zoning and regulations. Say you don't have to worry
about CC&Rs, but discover the township has a prohibition against any
structure over 25 feet. Typically, with a tactful approach pointing
out that they are superseding a federal law when it comes to amateur
radio towers might get you that variance. We had just such a case in a
township north of Midland. Several hams had tried for years to put up
towers, but to no avail. A new guy moved in and several months later
had a 60 foot tower. He took the proper approach and was prepared.

OTOH if the township is immovable, you most likely will win a court
battle and lawsuit, but it takes money to do that. Most often a *lot*
of money. Normally a lot more than you'd get back. Vindictive
township officials can be a royal pain, but nothing like vindictive
HOAs.

OTOH you might discover there are no homes available without overly
restrictive CC&Rs within 50 miles of your new job that pays $50,000 a
year. What HOA are you going to fight on that much?.

Having said all that, I fully expect to see passage of a bill that
will void any CC&R restriction on ham antennas deemed unreasonable
within the next decade IF government continues in its current
direction of recognizing the amateur service as an asset.
Particularly in the light of Homeland Security.

You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
We (hams) have a very good working relationship with the county. When
they built their new Law Enforcement Center the Emergency Operations
Center in it included a ham station. The mobile EOC van also has a
ham station built in. These are not just 2-meter FM mobiles either.

In addition, we are working on small, limited range portable repeaters
for voice, data, and video in conjunction with the EOC.

Some years back I served as the communications for one of the
evacuation centers when a train with some really nasty stuff, derailed
quite some distance away. That operation took a lot of hams as the
evacuation area was quite large. We were fortunate that the wind
pretty much favored us, but it changed enough that the shelter where I
was located had to be moved *in a hurry*. (I now carry a gas mask
in my kit) Moving a whole bunch of people who have just been awakened
at 2 AM, through a cloud of *stuff* that makes it difficult to breathe
and very limited visibility is an experience.

And therein lies the major difference. Whereas it is not a 'mandate' in the
true sense of the word, it has long been a standing relationship between
amateur radio ops and the local, state and federal authorities that hams
perform essential communications and other assistance during times of
emergency. (this is why, among other things, ham plates are not considered
vanity plates in most, if not all, states). And these towers and arrays are
important to the facilitation of those emergency communications.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:31:45 -0500, Dave Holford
wrote:



Frank Dresser wrote:

"A.Pismo Clam" wrote in message
...
Hello All!
snip

The thought occurs to me that in the "good old days" aircraft used to
have wire antennas, either strung around the airframe or trailing below
and behind.

Some still do


Modern, high speed, aircraft can't do this so they have various
solutions including HF probes and conformal antennas (I have seen
unpainted panels on some large military aircraft which were identified
as HF antennas) and it is not difficult to receive their signals over
distances of several thousand miles. I wonder why no one has, at least
as far as I am aware, attempted to adapt these solutions to Ham Radio?

The aircraft has a height above Terrain (HAT) advantage that few homes
are ever going to obtain. :-))


I have personal experience, some 40 years ago, with an HF antenna which
consisted of the top half of the tail (about a 15 to 20 foot square
metal surface) which was tuned by a remote ATU (Collins CU-351 ISTR) and
performed at least as well as a fixed wire over the range of 2.5 to 30
MHz. I had considered at one time covering one end of the house with
foil and trying the idea against ground, but for some reason I
encountered some opposition from another member of my household. I think
she figured 15 antennas was enough!

Then there is the problem of electrical wiring on the inside of the
wall too. :-))

The plane I'm building (335 MPH hot rod) is all advanced composite.
The plans call for the antennas to all be inside. Unfortunately the
VOR antenna is supposed to be in the horizontal stabilizer. They
changed the material so the horizontal stab is all carbon fiber.
Wellll...maybe it'd be good for deicing.

You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Dave
VE3HLU