I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out" the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil? Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would have a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi Arabia who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar, and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap. They are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about taking the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic) couldn't I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out" the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil? Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar, and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap. They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic) couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one of
these two options.


Inductance isn't all there is to an antenna.. you need capture area, too.
Broomstick antennas are not all that good, and are not very efficient. Yes,
they look good on paper, as the 'electrical length' is much longer than that
much straight wire, but without capture area, the efficeincy drops way off.
You're better with a longwire, even just a few meters (yards) run along the
eaves of your house.

Brenda et al:

This statement facinates me:

related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states.

1.2 kM of wire; Heck of a lot of capture area !

Is there some ratio of loop diameter and spacing between the wire loops that
results in the most capture area?

There is a nice ratio of mirror diameter to magnification limits in telescopes
This is the analogy I was thinking of.

Dan


Inductance isn't all there is to an antenna.. you need capture area, too.
Broomstick antennas are not all that good, and are not very efficient. Yes,
they look good on paper, as the 'electrical length' is much longer than that
much straight wire, but without capture area, the efficeincy drops way off.
You're better with a longwire, even just a few meters (yards) run along the
eaves of your house.

On 23 Dec 2003 14:27:39 GMT, (Diverd4777) wrote:

Brenda et al:

This statement facinates me:

related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states.

1.2 kM of wire; Heck of a lot of capture area !

Very little capture area if it's all coiled up in a small space.


Is there some ratio of loop diameter and spacing between the wire loops that
results in the most capture area?

The bigger the diameter, the bigger the capture area.


There is a nice ratio of mirror diameter to magnification limits in telescopes
This is the analogy I was thinking of.

Yes, but what you'd be concerned with here is 'light gathering power'
(aka aperture), not magnification.


Dan

-fb-

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.


"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out" the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil? Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar, and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap. They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic) couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave

CW wrote:

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.


Experimentation and experience have taught me that this is
basically correct. "Broomstick" antennas give pretty good performance
in a very compact space - they are even (marginally) "portable". But
for signal-pulling ability, they'll never beat a well-thought-out
longwire or randomwire. If you can tuck a one-meter broomstick into
your car somewhere for traveling, you've got the world
by the butt for shortwave listening away from home. But at home - your
"permanent space" - go with a random or longwire, if you possibly can.

Tony





"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out" the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil? Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar, and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap. They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic) couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave





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Hmm. Okay. Only I don't have much outside space available. I *might* be
able to manage 20-30 feet of random wire, but that is about it. And I have
more than a mile of small-guage wire on these two spools. I was planning on
wrapping it around a five-foot long piece of 4 inch PVC and standing it
behind a closet door. Since my last last message I tried a very crude
"hook-up" with one of the spools of wire and got absolutely no improvement
in reception. Now I understand why, thanks to you good people.

Back to the 20-30' piece of random wi my only option is to run it out the
window and along the top rail of the fence in the back yard. Would this
really outdo a massive broomstick antenna?

Thanks for the input. You've all got me thinking.

Dave


"Tony Meloche" wrote in message
...


CW wrote:

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound
antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.


Experimentation and experience have taught me that this is
basically correct. "Broomstick" antennas give pretty good performance
in a very compact space - they are even (marginally) "portable". But
for signal-pulling ability, they'll never beat a well-thought-out
longwire or randomwire. If you can tuck a one-meter broomstick into
your car somewhere for traveling, you've got the world
by the butt for shortwave listening away from home. But at home - your
"permanent space" - go with a random or longwire, if you possibly can.

Tony





"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out"
the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil?
Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under
the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of
the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would
have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire
and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I
have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi
Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar,
and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap.
They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an
aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about
taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't
that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic)
couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further
improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would
greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one
of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave





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News==----
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Newsgroups
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=---

= = = "Dave"
= = = wrote in message ...

Hmm. Okay. Only I don't have much outside space available.
I *might* be able to manage 20-30 feet of random wire, but
that is about it.


=R= Assuming that his is NOT a Metal Fence.

Another: [Hidden] "On-the-Fence" Random Wire Antenna

HOW TO: Use a short section of Fence for a
Low Level "Folded" Random Wire Antenna.

* Run a Coax Cable out to the Bottom of the Fence.
(Can be TV type 75 Ohm Coax Cable)

* Install a Ground Rod / Ground Wire HERE.
(If you have a Metal Fence Post Anchors ?
Use One as the Ground Point.)

* Use a Matching Transformer to connect the Antenna Element
to the Coax Cable.
(This can be a TV type 30075 Ohm Matching Transformer.

* Route the "WIRE" (Antenna Element) from the Starting-End of
the Fence; about one foot above and paralell to the ground to
the Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
= = = 100Ft - 150Ft Random Wire Antenna
(5 X 20Ft = 100Ft -&- 5 X 30Ft = 150Ft)

Sorta - Looka - Lika - Diz:
_____________________________x
|____________________________
_____________________________|
|____________________________
===MT________________________|
....G.........................

..
..
And I have more than a mile of small-guage wire on these two
spools. I was planning on wrapping it around a five-foot long
piece of 4 inch PVC and standing it behind a closet door.

=R= Better to wrap the wire Length-Wise 'inside & out'
(over and through) the PVC Pipe with about 1" spacing.
This would be about 120 Ft of wire in a vertical format.

..
..
Since my last last message I tried a very crude "hook-up" with
one of the spools of wire and got absolutely no improvement
in reception. Now I understand why, thanks to you good people.

Back to the 20-30' piece of random wi my only option is to
run it out the window and along the top rail of the fence in
the back yard. Would this really outdo a massive broomstick
antenna ?


=R= ? QUESTION ? "Top Rail" Is this a Metal Fence ?

..
..
Thanks for the input. You've all got me thinking.

Dave




iane ~ RHF

..

..

"RHF" wrote in message
om...
= = = "Dave"
= = = wrote in message ...

Hmm. Okay. Only I don't have much outside space available.
I *might* be able to manage 20-30 feet of random wire, but
that is about it.


=R= Assuming that his is NOT a Metal Fence.


It is a metal fence. Chain-link. I didn't think that was a very likely
answer to my problems.


Another: [Hidden] "On-the-Fence" Random Wire Antenna

HOW TO: Use a short section of Fence for a
Low Level "Folded" Random Wire Antenna.

* Run a Coax Cable out to the Bottom of the Fence.
(Can be TV type 75 Ohm Coax Cable)

* Install a Ground Rod / Ground Wire HERE.
(If you have a Metal Fence Post Anchors ?
Use One as the Ground Point.)

* Use a Matching Transformer to connect the Antenna Element
to the Coax Cable.
(This can be a TV type 30075 Ohm Matching Transformer.

* Route the "WIRE" (Antenna Element) from the Starting-End of
the Fence; about one foot above and paralell to the ground to
the Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
= = = 100Ft - 150Ft Random Wire Antenna
(5 X 20Ft = 100Ft -&- 5 X 30Ft = 150Ft)

Sorta - Looka - Lika - Diz:
_____________________________x
|____________________________
_____________________________|
|____________________________
===MT________________________|
...G.........................

.
.
And I have more than a mile of small-guage wire on these two
spools. I was planning on wrapping it around a five-foot long
piece of 4 inch PVC and standing it behind a closet door.

=R= Better to wrap the wire Length-Wise 'inside & out'
(over and through) the PVC Pipe with about 1" spacing.
This would be about 120 Ft of wire in a vertical format.

.

I'm not sure how I could do that, at least with my 5-foot piece of PVC. Any
ideas?


.
Since my last last message I tried a very crude "hook-up" with
one of the spools of wire and got absolutely no improvement
in reception. Now I understand why, thanks to you good people.

Back to the 20-30' piece of random wi my only option is to
run it out the window and along the top rail of the fence in
the back yard. Would this really outdo a massive broomstick
antenna ?


=R= ? QUESTION ? "Top Rail" Is this a Metal Fence ?

.
.
Thanks for the input. You've all got me thinking.

Dave




iane ~ RHF

.

.

Dave

Tony Meloche wrote:

CW wrote:

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.

snip If you can tuck a one-meter broomstick into
your car somewhere for traveling, you've got the world
by the butt for shortwave listening away from home. But at home - your
"permanent space" - go with a random or longwire, if you possibly can.

Tony


For portable use, I've found the AT-271/A antenna designed for the PRC-25 or PRC-77 works quite well. It's about 10' long, and it's set up like the supports used for dome tents - to take it down - you pull the sections apart (they have a chain/shock cord
running through them) and fold them for storage.

I got it he http://www.american-milspec.com/c765.html

Unfortunately, it's just a hair too long to fit inside the aluminum attaché case I transport my 7030 in.

Personally, I think I'd use a slinky over a broom stick. More compact for travel, and if you have more room, you can spread it out.




"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out" the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil? Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar, and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap. They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic) couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave




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