http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Esrw...rundig-100.htm

"FM? Whazzat?

After 25+ years in that business, we no longer listen to any FM
broadcasting. Why; when we have 9,000 classical CDs, an eight-foot grand
piano, a Yamaha Clavinova, and a harpsichord?! In order to be useful to
readers who might, however, want to know about the FM performance, we did
tune to the band and TRY to pick up a station. Surely the only one we would
ever want to hear, from our home in San Jose, would be classical KDFC,
102.1, in San Francisco. It was absolutely unreceivable. Ditto via the Radio
Shack DX-397; and there is almost no trace of it either using the Sony
7600GR.

But a late-60's Grundig Music-Boy germanium transistor radio (original
manual at left) picks it up quite clearly! This shows the sad deterioration
of FM radio design over the decades; the old discrete-component radio, with
excellent selectivity, could pull KDFC out of the hiss and mush; the new
ones, with their short whip aerials and IC cookbook designs, just did not
have the power and discrimination."


I'm wanting a pockety sized PLL radio that will, on FM performance, actually
equal, at least an, old Grundig radio for sensitivity, cross-modulation and
image rejection!

This web site lists some of the best portable fm receivers:

http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/...sedbydxers.htm

I have found the best fm stereo dx setup to be a combination of a
small rooftop antenna with rotor and a stand alone FM tuner like the
Denon TU1500.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-2163

http://www.fmsystems.net/sp_tu1500.htm

Jim

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:07:15 -0000, "Richard"
wrote:

http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Esrw...rundig-100.htm

"FM? Whazzat?

After 25+ years in that business, we no longer listen to any FM
broadcasting. Why; when we have 9,000 classical CDs, an eight-foot grand
piano, a Yamaha Clavinova, and a harpsichord?! In order to be useful to
readers who might, however, want to know about the FM performance, we did
tune to the band and TRY to pick up a station. Surely the only one we would
ever want to hear, from our home in San Jose, would be classical KDFC,
102.1, in San Francisco. It was absolutely unreceivable. Ditto via the Radio
Shack DX-397; and there is almost no trace of it either using the Sony
7600GR.

But a late-60's Grundig Music-Boy germanium transistor radio (original
manual at left) picks it up quite clearly! This shows the sad deterioration
of FM radio design over the decades; the old discrete-component radio, with
excellent selectivity, could pull KDFC out of the hiss and mush; the new
ones, with their short whip aerials and IC cookbook designs, just did not
have the power and discrimination."


I'm wanting a pockety sized PLL radio that will, on FM performance, actually
equal, at least an, old Grundig radio for sensitivity, cross-modulation and
image rejection!

"Richard" wrote in message
...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Esrw...rundig-100.htm


Holy Moly!! Two images on a single conversion radio!!!

I'd ask Major Armstrong what's happening here, but he checked out before
I checked in and my old pal, Fred Terman, has been quite silent over the
last couple of decades, or so.

Is there a mathmetical formula for this image frequency stuff?

Please tell me how this happens, oh wise one!


"By now, we had also acquired a Grundig FR-200 "crank" radio, which has
the typical problems of other single-conversion Grundigs we've tested,
such as the Model 350: noticeable and very irritating images on the
broadcast and SW bands, 910 kHz above or below the proper station
frequency. This means, for example, no less than THREE instances of
"WWV, 10 MHz": one below, one on, and one above the correct frequency.
And stations that are very strong cause hetrodynes when their images
land right on top of one you want to tune in."

Frank "Trailer Park" Dresser

"R.F. Collins" wrote in message
...
This web site lists some of the best portable fm receivers:


http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/...sedbydxers.htm

I have found the best fm stereo dx setup to be a combination of a
small rooftop antenna with rotor and a stand alone FM tuner like the
Denon TU1500.


http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-2163

http://www.fmsystems.net/sp_tu1500.htm

Jim

I should have put portable in the subject header!

I'm also thinking in terms of the worldband portable as well!

What resonated with me, is the idea that FM performance of many of your PLL
portables, worldband or not, cannot even match a late 1960's Grundig.

This is a common problem with single conversion. If your front end is
too sensitive as on some Grundigs, you can overload the IF and get a
mixing product generated at 2 x IF frequency (455kHz) = 910 kHz. This
gives you the image at 910kHz above and below the actual frequency.
This is why more expensive radios are dual and triple conversion.

Jim

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:38:56 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote:


"Richard" wrote in message
...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Esrw...rundig-100.htm


Holy Moly!! Two images on a single conversion radio!!!

I'd ask Major Armstrong what's happening here, but he checked out before
I checked in and my old pal, Fred Terman, has been quite silent over the
last couple of decades, or so.

Is there a mathmetical formula for this image frequency stuff?

Please tell me how this happens, oh wise one!


"By now, we had also acquired a Grundig FR-200 "crank" radio, which has
the typical problems of other single-conversion Grundigs we've tested,
such as the Model 350: noticeable and very irritating images on the
broadcast and SW bands, 910 kHz above or below the proper station
frequency. This means, for example, no less than THREE instances of
"WWV, 10 MHz": one below, one on, and one above the correct frequency.
And stations that are very strong cause hetrodynes when their images
land right on top of one you want to tune in."

Frank "Trailer Park" Dresser

If you scroll down on the first link, there is a section on portables.
The Panasonic is no longer made. The Yacht Boy 400 is still in
production and the Satellit 700 is now the 800 but these should give
you idea as to who manufactures the best FM portable.

Jim

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:54:23 -0000, "Richard"
wrote:


"R.F. Collins" wrote in message
.. .
This web site lists some of the best portable fm receivers:


http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/...sedbydxers.htm

I have found the best fm stereo dx setup to be a combination of a
small rooftop antenna with rotor and a stand alone FM tuner like the
Denon TU1500.


http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-2163

http://www.fmsystems.net/sp_tu1500.htm

Jim

I should have put portable in the subject header!

I'm also thinking in terms of the worldband portable as well!

What resonated with me, is the idea that FM performance of many of your PLL
portables, worldband or not, cannot even match a late 1960's Grundig.

"Richard" wrote in message
...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Esrw...rundig-100.htm

"FM? Whazzat?


snipped

I found FM performance to be excellent from my old Grundig
Satellit 1400 (c.1983). Got many a continental European from up here
in Scotland, during Sporadic 'E' lifts in the summer.

--
Ian Smith, Renfrew, Scotland. 55.868733°N 4.399517°W, 7m asl

R.F. Collins wrote:
If you scroll down on the first link, there is a section on portables.
The Panasonic is no longer made. The Yacht Boy 400 is still in
production and the Satellit 700 is now the 800 but these should give
you idea as to who manufactures the best FM portable.

Jim

Are you trying to say there's some connection between the Satellit 700
and the 800, or just that the 800 is a good FM DX portable, in the same
league as the 700? The radios are of course unrelated. I don't know
anything about the 800 except what I read on the net, and I don't recall
having read anything extreme one way or the other about its performance
on FM, but the 700 is one great FM radio.

"Ian Smith" wrote in message
...
"Richard" wrote in message
...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Esrw...rundig-100.htm

"FM? Whazzat?


snipped

I found FM performance to be excellent from my old Grundig
Satellit 1400 (c.1983). Got many a continental European from up here
in Scotland, during Sporadic 'E' lifts in the summer.

--
Ian Smith, Renfrew, Scotland. 55.868733°N 4.399517°W, 7m asl

Yep.

Reading some comments about the Sony ICFM33RDS, and the bit I text I quoted
to start the thread, I've somehow got the impression that many modern
portable PL sets are "rap" with a capital "C"on FM. Radio Shack DX-397 and
the Sony 7600GR quoted as not being that good. Not sure how expensive these
radios are, but, the ICFM33RDS is only£35, so maybe poorish FM performance
is to be expected for this set. If I pay say £80 or £100 for a PLL radio,
maybe FM performance would get to as good as the old Grundig. I don't want
the RX to be deaf on FM, or have images from localstations all over the
band.

I wonder then if I need double conversion on FM.I bet ICFM33RDS is not
double. Thats actually just a two band RX. I probably should spend a bit
more and go for worldband. I vacillate between worldband and not worldband.
:c)

"Larry Ozarow" wrote in message
...
R.F. Collins wrote:
If you scroll down on the first link, there is a section on portables.
The Panasonic is no longer made. The Yacht Boy 400 is still in
production and the Satellit 700 is now the 800 but these should give
you idea as to who manufactures the best FM portable.

Jim

Are you trying to say there's some connection between the Satellit 700
and the 800, or just that the 800 is a good FM DX portable, in the same
league as the 700? The radios are of course unrelated. I don't know
anything about the 800 except what I read on the net, and I don't recall
having read anything extreme one way or the other about its performance
on FM, but the 700 is one great FM radio.


I've put narrower IF filters in my Sat 800 and the result is quite
impressive on FM. Good sensitivity with the whip antenna, handles a larger
antenna well (actually better than most radios I've tried on FM). Definately
worth considering for FM DX if you limit yourself to radios actully in
production.

craigm