Good points -- both of you.

Thanks.

-- Stinger

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence H. Bulk" wrote in message
...

Information and education were really what brought down the
communists. I met some individuals from Czechoslovakia and Hungary
during the "cold war" and while they had some potent arguments for the
merits of their system, their failings, once exposed to them and to
their people, outweighed any advantages their system might have
offered. Once their people really knew about the outside world, they
themselves brought down their governments and their failed system.


OK, you're right about that. The propaganda war was central to the
success
of the conatainment strategy. I've no doubt that, had the communists
actually been able to entirely close off and censor their countries, they
could have created their own dark age.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the
others."

Were the communists a scourge of mankind? Of course they were
(20,000,000 Russians killed by Stalin, among other atrocities), but
their system at least started out with some noble purpose. It just
worked out exactly the opposite of what its founders envisioned.

Well, the Bolsheviks lost their moral superiority, probably sometime
before
they decided to murder the Czar's family. But that's the sort of thing
true
believers will do.

The Communists, at least at the start, were every bit as much a bunch of
true believers as the Christians during the Dark Ages or as the fanatic
Muslims are now.

But the real evil of true believer orthodoxy is the limitation of people's
choices. Life is unpredictable, even for people we like to think are
"smart". Let a religion or party choose the one true path, and that path
will certainly end up being wrong. But those in charge of the true path
will never blame their doctrine, they'll blame the people.


(This is a poor point here in this argument, but how many Americans
[native, black, etc.] have been killed with the tacit acceptance of
the government?)

I don't know the number. But influential people dehuminized Blacks and
Indians, and the government followed along. The shame is these people
didn't get Constitutional protection from the get go.



The "religious" broacasters have no noble purpose. Just MONEY.

That depends which religious broadcasters you're talking about. There's a
large number of standard theology evangalists on the radio. I think the
style and content of EWTN's broadcasts are somewhat similiar in character
and tone to the some of the calmer old propaganda broadcasts. The
Christian
Scientists run their newspaper and ran thier SW station as part of their
religious mission.

However, guys like Brother Stair get most of the attention. And while I
certainly believe Brother Stair is an old reprobate con-artist, I can't
prove it.



That's hardly unique to religion. Fool/Money/Parted.

But these "religious" broadcasters prey (no pun intended) on it. That
is their sole (again, no pun ...) reason for existence.


But people have the choice! And it's never been easier to do the
research.



They are very entertaining!!

Maybe they give you a good laugh but I can tell you that, among other
things, they are ruining the shortwave hobby


They are adding to the hobby. The religious broadcasters do sell radios
and
add listeners. The programs may feature a different sort of propaganda,
but
none of these programs are forcing any of the old line broadcasters to go
away.


(as well as being
inherently evil).


The extreme religious broadcasters may very well be evil. But, again, we
have plenty of choices. A theocracy, or other government of true
believers,
would be far more evil.


I have given shortwave receivers as gifts to four
individuals, three youngsters and one adult. I have shown them how to
use these radios, as much as one can do in an hour or two. After a
month or somewhat more, they all had the same complaint: nothing but
"religious" shows on shortwave. Sure I tell them where to tune, but
the complaint persists. No shortwave converts here. Regardless of what
anyone says or even believes, this ("religious" broadcasts), more than
anything else I can think of, is very damaging to the hobby, in my
opinion.

I doubt more than 5% of the public ever cared for SW radio, and the
interest
probably peaked in the prewar, preTV era. Is there any reason to think
that
your friends would have any interest in SW, no matter what the
programming?
After all, Radio Nederland and the BBC, among others, can still be heard
most of the time.

Shortwave broadcasting has gone through several changes in the US.
Ignoring
the spark era, the first broadcast era was centered around several
domestic
SW stations, most of which simulcast programming from a local station.
The
propaganda era started with WW2 and started decling with the fall of the
Berlin Wall. Now we're in the religious broadcaster era. It seems likely
that the small number of listeners from one era would find another one a
disapointment. For example, a prewar listener who liked hearing local
radio
content from across the country might very well find the propaganda
broadcasters annoying. Why not, that's not what got him into the hobby!
And the hobby never had much appeal to most people anyway.



These hucksters are not interested in shortwave, or even,
again in my opinion, in true religious beliefs. They only want MONEY!


Maybe. Let's be glad they can't be theocrats.



Sorry for the diatribe, but I really feel strongly about this. I love
listening to the shortwaves for the fun of it (there is still
something magical about it that the internet can never replace) and
for the information it brings about countries that I shall never have
the opportunity to visit. Are the opinions biased? Certainly they are,
but all human opinions are biased in one way or another. At least
these foreign broadcasts have mostly a decent purpose behind them,
whether or not you believe in their system

The purpose wasn't entirely decent, at least in the case of the communist
propaganda broadcasters. I'm sure they employed decent people, but they
were there to put a pleasant face on a bad system. A system which would
put
the world into a Dark Age of orthodoxy every bit as stifleing as the ones
the theocrats cooked up.


(I have no use whatsoever
for Fidel Castro, but look at the record: he has outlasted nine US
presidents [and who knows, he may outlast George W. Bush]. If there
have been any assassination attempts by his own people against him, I
am unaware of them. (Of course they wouldn't make that a headline on
Radio Havana!) You and I don't like him, all the refugees don't
either, but maybe some of his people do!


No doubt, and they can go straight to Walterboro if their current bearded
guru kicks the bucket!


I have just as much contempt for the "religious" broadcasters as I do
for Castro.

Castro's worse. He limits choices to keep himself in power, including the
ultimate limitations of the prision and the firing squad.

Brother Stair says "If you don't believe me, stop listening!!"

Again my apologies. You certainly have every right to believe the way
you do (and you don't need my "permission" to do so).

Nothing to apologize for!

Lawrence

Frank Dresser

In article ,
says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,
says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

snip

How's your credibility, btw?

Pretty damn good as far as I know!

How's yours?

Better than yours, I think.

Much better.

Let's cut to the chase here. You said that my
suggestion (that Duyba may have run into the
Air Forces' HUMAN RELIABIILTY PROGRAM and that's
why his military records are incomplete, leading
to charges he was AWOL) was untrue. And basically
you called me a liar.

I responded by provided cites from - and a URL to -
a newspaper article from a fairly reputable paper
saying exactly the same thing as I had. I also
pointed out that even a cursory search of Google
("human reliablity program' air force) indicated
that the program did exist and did functioned as
outlined in the article.

You shut up at that point. But silence isn't
enough. I need you to either specify why you
said my original statement was untrue so that
I can expand my knowledge on this subject and be
able to reach an informed decision. Or I need a
'Oops' from you.

That's it.

All I want.

I don't get either, that tells me all I need to
know regarding the true state of your credibility.
And whether I regard you as a vauled fellow poster
or a troll.

Your move.

I maintain that my credibility is stellar.

I see.

Your refusal puts the lie to your statement,
I'm afraid.

But at least your true nature is clear, now.

Frankie, you've proved you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground!
You
get back to me sometime down the road when you'd like to talk DX.

Until then you are a non-entity. You listening? I thought not!

****Wad

Changing your signature?

It suits you.

FW

"Lawrence H. Bulk" wrote in message
om...
Dear Frank,

Well at least we've had an interesting discussion, agreeing on some
points and disagreeing on others. That's what makes the world go
around and as long as no one holds a gun to the other's head, telling
him he must believe "his way," everything is fine.

I, like most people, always hated the communists (and all other
totalitarian regimes) and I believe that the "religious broadcasters,"
while they do not actually hold a gun to your head, use an unarguable
agenda which they use to further themselves and themselves only. (As I
said, there are certainly some legitimate religious broadcasters.)
Plus I still feel they are ruining the hobby. (Sure they sell radios;
big deal. It's just another profit-making venture for them. The more
people who listen to their broadcasts, the more money they can get!)
"Brother" Stair appears to be an obvious "wacko" and sexual pervert.
By the way, DO NOT go to church; if you do, you are definitely and
positively under the influence of Satan. As the "church age" is over,
you should not support your church in any way. Harold Camping says so.
By the way, Harold would like you to send him some money.


Harold Camping's biggest problem for the SWL is he's a boring broadcaster.
But I think he made his fortune in building or real estate or something like
that. He could never be a big time broadcaster if he was depending on
donations from the listener. Most broadcasters have to deal with a economic
feedback loop. Alex Jones, Brother Stair, James Lloyd and all the rest have
to get the listener's attention, and strike a chord with potential donors.
It's a bit like street hustlers, I suppose. Any guy who asks for money owes
us a good story. Maybe not a convincing story, but certainly a good one.
"Awwwwww, just give me a dollar" certainly doesn't cut it.

Harold Camping is spending mostly his own money on SW broadcasting. I think
he's entirely sincere in what he drones. And he drones on and on and on and
on.


I really feel that these people and others like them who constitute
the "now-mainstream" SW "religious" broadcasters are inherently evil.
This is my opinion.

I'm afraid that you and I are going to have to "agree to disagree" on
that point.

However, as I said, it certainly has been interesting. You are
obviously a very reasoned and thoughtful person. We need more (many
more) like you.

Lawrence

Give it a few years. SW radio may yet again have another "format change".
The big international broadcasters are moving out, and hobbyist broadcasters
may fill the void. Or upstart networks may use SW radio to fill in smaller
markets. Air America hasn't done it, but a better managed network might
show up.


P.S. I never actually read Mao's "Little Red Book."

I never read read the Red Book either. I did read the Blue Book of the John
Birch Society.

Frank Dresser

Frank White wrote:

In article ,
says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,
says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

snip

How's your credibility, btw?

Pretty damn good as far as I know!

How's yours?

Better than yours, I think.

Much better.

Let's cut to the chase here. You said that my
suggestion (that Duyba may have run into the
Air Forces' HUMAN RELIABIILTY PROGRAM and that's
why his military records are incomplete, leading
to charges he was AWOL) was untrue. And basically
you called me a liar.

I responded by provided cites from - and a URL to -
a newspaper article from a fairly reputable paper
saying exactly the same thing as I had. I also
pointed out that even a cursory search of Google
("human reliablity program' air force) indicated
that the program did exist and did functioned as
outlined in the article.

You shut up at that point. But silence isn't
enough. I need you to either specify why you
said my original statement was untrue so that
I can expand my knowledge on this subject and be
able to reach an informed decision. Or I need a
'Oops' from you.

That's it.

All I want.

I don't get either, that tells me all I need to
know regarding the true state of your credibility.
And whether I regard you as a vauled fellow poster
or a troll.

Your move.

I maintain that my credibility is stellar.

I see.

Your refusal puts the lie to your statement,
I'm afraid.

But at least your true nature is clear, now.

Frankie, you've proved you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground!
You
get back to me sometime down the road when you'd like to talk DX.

Until then you are a non-entity. You listening? I thought not!

****Wad

Changing your signature?

It suits you.

FW

You're still a liar Frank... Bush was not AWOL!

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ...

Most broadcasters have to deal with a economic
feedback loop. Alex Jones, Brother Stair, James Lloyd and all the rest have
to get the listener's attention, and strike a chord with potential donors.
It's a bit like street hustlers, I suppose. Any guy who asks for money owes
us a good story. Maybe not a convincing story, but certainly a good one.
"Awwwwww, just give me a dollar" certainly doesn't cut it.

Harold Camping is spending mostly his own money on SW broadcasting. I think
he's entirely sincere in what he drones. And he drones on and on and on and
on.


These evil (in my opinion) people do not have to directly ask for
money. They ask in the most insidious way possible. "If you do not
contribute to me to help spread the 'good news of salvation' [they
imply in one way or another] you will not be doing 'good deeds' and
will never go to 'heaven' but will be consigned to eternal damnation."

Such an implication is unarguable and the guilt feeling it applies to
people is exactly the same as that of the witch doctors in Africa and
elsewhere who cause people to believe from childhood that if they wave
a "magic stick" in their direction (or the "bottle" or whatever points
in their direction) they will die. And do you know what? They do die!
That kind of deep-seated ingrained belief (their religion), based on
extreme fear (forced upon people from childhood), is impossible to
overcome.

All religions, in one way or another, rely on this fear. Even rational
thinking often won't overcome it. It is a perverse example of the
placebo effect, one of the most powerful effects known to humankind.

Does any rational person really believe that some character (after
all, just another human being) can really tell you what God has in
store for you (if anything)? Do you really believe that because some
clown is on the radio or television (or wears his collar backward,
wears outlandish clothes, or whatever, and claims he "knows the word")
that this makes him "holier" than you?

These "religious broadcasters" are masters (just like the witch
doctors or voodoo priests) of manipulating people to their will.
Sometimes even otherwise intelligent people (as I, and I'm sure you,
know from personal experience)!

Why do they do this? In my opinion, it is to extract MONEY (and what
it will buy) from the gullible. Unfortunately, they are often very
successful.

Harold Camping states that all his "facts" come from the "bible." His
interpretation, naturally. He states he has studied the "bible" for
years and he knows more than you do, and maybe he does know more. That
doesn't mean his interpretation is correct. Do you think he really
knows more about God (as opposed to the "bible") than you do? I don't
care how many human beings study the "bible" for how many years -
humans will never ever be able to fathom even the tiniest fraction of
the mind of God. All we can do is to try to act decently here on Earth
towards our fellow creatures, all of whom were created by God. I don't
care how you (or anyone else) prays (or doesn't pray). It is also no
concern of anyone else how I pray. As long as we don't harm anyone
else (and that means, among other things, killing other people, or
even just impugning or disrespecting someone else's beliefs [as long
as they are not harmful to others] by stating or implying that "I have
studied the word and I know more than you, therefore I am better than
you, so you better listen to what I have to say or you will go to
HELL") all of us would theoretically be able to get along much better,
at least in that regard, and the world would be a much better place.
That is my belief.

If Harold Camping (and others of his ilk) were truly sincere, they'd
just leave everyone else alone! But no - they can't. Otherwise how
would they extract MONEY?

"What is hateful to you, do not do unto your fellow man."

Most people unfortunately do not live by that precept and "religious"
fanatics cause most of the ills of the world, in my opinion.

I feel these broadcasters, far from being sincere or even really
religious, are just "using" people to further their own aims, which,
as I stated in a previous posting, appears to me to be MONEY. I don't
know or care where Harold Camping originally got his money; I believe
he gets a lot more money from
"suckers" than you or I even realize (I have my doubts as to whether
he is "sincere").

And I feel their stupid shows are ruining my hobby! (That, of course,
is the least of the problems they cause.)


I'm afraid that you and I are going to have to "agree to disagree" on
that point.

Lawrence

Give it a few years. SW radio may yet again have another "format change".
The big international broadcasters are moving out, and hobbyist broadcasters
may fill the void. Or upstart networks may use SW radio to fill in smaller
markets. Air America hasn't done it, but a better managed network might
show up.

I enjoy a lot of programs over the shortwaves, especially Radio
Bulgaria's and VOR's music programs and other broadcasters who play
indigenous music, but do you know what is one of my absolute
favorites? "Marion's Attic" over WBCQ on Saturday night (7415 @ 9 ET
[Sun. 0100]). Ever listen to it? It's certainly a niche program and
very entertaining. Great music! I'd like to hear more of that on SW. I
hope you are correct that another "format change" may come.

Lawrence

In article ,
says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

snip

How's your credibility, btw?

Pretty damn good as far as I know!

How's yours?

Better than yours, I think.

Much better.

Let's cut to the chase here. You said that my
suggestion (that Duyba may have run into the
Air Forces' HUMAN RELIABIILTY PROGRAM and that's
why his military records are incomplete, leading
to charges he was AWOL) was untrue. And basically
you called me a liar.

I responded by provided cites from - and a URL to -
a newspaper article from a fairly reputable paper
saying exactly the same thing as I had. I also
pointed out that even a cursory search of Google
("human reliablity program' air force) indicated
that the program did exist and did functioned as
outlined in the article.

You shut up at that point. But silence isn't
enough. I need you to either specify why you
said my original statement was untrue so that
I can expand my knowledge on this subject and be
able to reach an informed decision. Or I need a
'Oops' from you.

That's it.

All I want.

I don't get either, that tells me all I need to
know regarding the true state of your credibility.
And whether I regard you as a vauled fellow poster
or a troll.

Your move.

I maintain that my credibility is stellar.

I see.

Your refusal puts the lie to your statement,
I'm afraid.

But at least your true nature is clear, now.

Frankie, you've proved you don't know your ass from a hole in the
ground!
You
get back to me sometime down the road when you'd like to talk DX.

Until then you are a non-entity. You listening? I thought not!

****Wad

Changing your signature?

It suits you.

FW

You're still a liar Frank... Bush was not AWOL!

You unspeakable, illiterate MORON!!! THAT'S WHAT
I SAID!!

(More accurately, I said that because it is possible
Dubya got set upon by the Air Force's Human Reliability
Program, and his medical/service records may have been
sealed, lost, or destroyed as a result - especially if
political pressure was brought to bear - the gaps in
those records therefore DO NOT PROVE he was AWOL.)

I was ON YOUR SIDE ON THIS, you NITWIT!

Don't drink and post, get psychological care, and have
someone teach you how to read.

Jerk-boy.

FW

In article ,
says...

snip the plagiarized portions of -=jd=- (aka, the
Troll)'s post

Hm. There's nothing left...

FW

Frank White wrote:

In article ,
says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

In article ,

says...



Frank White wrote:

snip

How's your credibility, btw?

Pretty damn good as far as I know!

How's yours?

Better than yours, I think.

Much better.

Let's cut to the chase here. You said that my
suggestion (that Duyba may have run into the
Air Forces' HUMAN RELIABIILTY PROGRAM and that's
why his military records are incomplete, leading
to charges he was AWOL) was untrue. And basically
you called me a liar.

I responded by provided cites from - and a URL to -
a newspaper article from a fairly reputable paper
saying exactly the same thing as I had. I also
pointed out that even a cursory search of Google
("human reliablity program' air force) indicated
that the program did exist and did functioned as
outlined in the article.

You shut up at that point. But silence isn't
enough. I need you to either specify why you
said my original statement was untrue so that
I can expand my knowledge on this subject and be
able to reach an informed decision. Or I need a
'Oops' from you.

That's it.

All I want.

I don't get either, that tells me all I need to
know regarding the true state of your credibility.
And whether I regard you as a vauled fellow poster
or a troll.

Your move.

I maintain that my credibility is stellar.

I see.

Your refusal puts the lie to your statement,
I'm afraid.

But at least your true nature is clear, now.

Frankie, you've proved you don't know your ass from a hole in the
ground!
You
get back to me sometime down the road when you'd like to talk DX.

Until then you are a non-entity. You listening? I thought not!

****Wad

Changing your signature?

It suits you.

FW

You're still a liar Frank... Bush was not AWOL!

You unspeakable, illiterate MORON!!! THAT'S WHAT
I SAID!!

(More accurately, I said that because it is possible
Dubya got set upon by the Air Force's Human Reliability
Program, and his medical/service records may have been
sealed, lost, or destroyed as a result - especially if
political pressure was brought to bear - the gaps in
those records therefore DO NOT PROVE he was AWOL.)

I was ON YOUR SIDE ON THIS, you NITWIT!

Don't drink and post, get psychological care, and have
someone teach you how to read.

Better take your own advice FukWad!

Frank White wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip the plagiarized portions of -=jd=- (aka, the
Troll)'s post

Hm. There's nothing left...

FukWad

In article ,
says...

On Fri 23 Apr 2004 08:44:28a, (Frank White) wrote
in message :

In article ,
says...

snip the plagiarized portions of -=jd=- (aka, the
Troll)'s post

Hm. There's nothing left...

FW



Yeah, whatever... You calling anyone else a troll. Indeed!

You should try developing a sense of humor.


-=jd=-

My apologies, both for calling you a troll and for not finding
your post amusing.

Dealing with N8KDV's venom and vulgarity has - temporarily only,
I hope - knocked the humor out of me...

FW