"AK" wrote in message
news:awsxc.17938$4S5.15367@attbi_s52...


Sadly, I am aware of that. Either he's been paid off, or the people
pulling
his strings have been paid off by the power company special interest reps.
My "but anyone with a comprehension of radio transmission and reception
knows that the BPL concept does not work" and "unfathomable concept"
comments were certainly directed Powell's way. Oh for the good ol' days
when
at least one or two of the FCC Commissioners were ex-FCC field engineers
who
understood something about the medium they were supposed to be in charge
of.

AK



Great. If BPL is unworkable, let it fail in the marketplace. Do you really
think any politician will vote to preempt a failure? Let's say politician A
blocks BPL. Politician B says "Mr. A wants to restrict your freedom to
choose! I say every American has the God given right to pick which ever
high speed internet access plan he can get!!" Then sleazeball campaigner B
starts a whispering campaign -- "Who's pocket is A in? The phone company's?
The cable company's? The satellite company's? All of them? Well, there
must be some reason he wants to restrict your freedom!!" The upcoming
election might be close, and nobody is going to restrict "Freedom" this
year.

Note that I used the non-partisan terms A and B to describe the politicians.
I know there people around who think one party or another is the Repository
of Morality and the other is the Heart of Evil, but I ain't one of 'em.

Frank Dresser

Alex wrote:
FCC Comm. have terms,
half are dem and other half are rep.

Which Commissioner do we split in half?grin

There are five Commissioners. No more than three may be members of the
same party.

http://www.fcc.gov/aboutus.html

Unfortunately I wouldn't count on a Democratic Presidency stopping BPL.
Firstly, they're just as susceptible to campaign contributions as
Republicans. Secondly, the GOP Congress has a record of overturning FCC
decisions if they offend enough lobbyists. (witness the anti-LPFM
legislation - which was enacted despite a Democratic President who
opposed it)

Democratic Congresses in my lifetime never had a record of trying
anything that blatant. Doesn't mean they haven't learned from the GOP
since then.
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"AK" wrote in message
news:awsxc.17938$4S5.15367@attbi_s52...


Sadly, I am aware of that. Either he's been paid off, or the people
pulling
his strings have been paid off by the power company special interest
reps.
My "but anyone with a comprehension of radio transmission and reception
knows that the BPL concept does not work" and "unfathomable concept"
comments were certainly directed Powell's way. Oh for the good ol' days
when
at least one or two of the FCC Commissioners were ex-FCC field engineers
who
understood something about the medium they were supposed to be in charge
of.

AK



Great. If BPL is unworkable, let it fail in the marketplace.

That's one of those nonsense comments that sounds good, but doesn't work.
Once "the marketplace" gets tested, amateur radio and most of the other
users of HF and MF radio reception will be out of business - never to bounce
back once destroyed. Meanwhile, BPL will be "workable" for those areas that
never had good cable access and where people were too cheap to use satellite
or telephone alternatives. BPL isn't "unworkable" - it's the "unreasonable"
sacrifices that must be made to allow nationwide radio spectrum disruption
for some trivial gain to a few people and a few big businesses.

Do you really
think any politician will vote to preempt a failure? Let's say politician
A
blocks BPL. Politician B says "Mr. A wants to restrict your freedom to
choose! I say every American has the God given right to pick which ever
high speed internet access plan he can get!!"

You must be that same guy that thought he had a God given right to dump
whatever he wanted into the Nashua river when I lived along it. His
corporate garbage killed all the fish and stunk-up the river for the rest of
the world, but using the river for his personal dumping ground was his
"right"! Some good ol' New England Yankee took on this
"my-rights-over-everyone-else" guy by paying a cement truck to dump a full
load of concrete in the guy's drainage canal to the river. The sheriff was
called, saw what was done, heard why it was done, and went home without
issuing any citation. Too bad that a load of concrete won't stop BPL.

ak

In article flFxc.1843$2i5.155@attbi_s52, AK wrote:

Great. If BPL is unworkable, let it fail in the marketplace.

That's one of those nonsense comments that sounds good, but doesn't work.
Once "the marketplace" gets tested, amateur radio and most of the other
users of HF and MF radio reception will be out of business - never to bounce
back once destroyed. Meanwhile, BPL will be "workable" for those areas that
never had good cable access and where people were too cheap to use satellite
or telephone alternatives. BPL isn't "unworkable" - it's the "unreasonable"
sacrifices that must be made to allow nationwide radio spectrum disruption
for some trivial gain to a few people and a few big businesses.

There's an interesting analogy to this situation playing out in the
airwaves right now. My understanding of this situation is as follows
(and may be a bit incorrect).

Some years ago, the FCC decided to allow a company which I believe was
called Fleet Telecommunications to set up some digital-packet-oriented
communication on a set of frequencies in the 800 MHz range. These
frequencies were located quite close to the 800 MHz narrow-band FM
channels allocated to publics-safety ground (trunked police and fire
systems, etc.).

There was concern expressed at the time that these digital channels
might cause interference with the existing analog channels
(intermodulation and receiver desensing, I think). The FCC agreed to
allow the allocations, on the condition that the digital operator
ensure that interference to existing allocations would not occur or
would be abated.

Subsequently (I'm hazy on the details) Fleet either went out of
business or was bought up... in either case, Nextel ended up as the
owner of these 800 MHz digital allocations. Nextel has used them as
the basis of much of its current-generation cellphone system.

The result: significant, and sometimes very severe, interference to
public-safety radio operations. There have been numerous reports of
police and firefighters being unable to use their radios successfully,
when in proximity to Nextel cellular sites. This has resulted in very
real danger to life-and-limb for police officers and firefighters.

Nextel has taken some steps to abate specific instances of this
(reducing power) when it's called to their attention, but the problem
remains.

There's a whole massive brouhaha taking place now, about "rebanding"
the 800 MHz spectrum. This will probably involve consolidating the
public-safety frequencies (requiring modification or replacement of
much equipment - Nextel has offered to pay $billions to do this but
there's concern that it'll cost twice that much), and moving at least
some of Nextel's cellular allocations upwards to a higher frequency
band. Nextel wants a big block of spectrum space in compensation,
while other companies claim that the FCC has no legal authority to
simply hand over that space to Nextel and that the law requires the
spectrum to be auctioned to the highest bidder. No matter what the
FCC decides to do, it's likely to end up being challenged in Federal
court and delayed for years.

It's a horrible mess. Some claim that the FCC *could* have acted, on
its own authority, to order Nextel to shut down operations in the
interleaved bands, because their system is apparently violating the
"we will not cause interference to other licensed operations" clauses
which were part of the original Fleet allocation grant. The FCC has
apparently asserted that it doesn't have authority to act on its own
in the absence of a formal legal complaint from a public-safety radio
organization... and no city or county or state has been willing to
file such a complaint (perhaps because the cost of pursuing it
against a deep-pockets company like Nextel would be very high indeed).

I agree that if BPL is rolled out en mass, it _is_ likely to cause
serious interference with HF operations (amateur and otherwise), and
that the momentum of "Hey, we've invested billions to field BPL, you
can't just shut us down" is likely to override the original "No, there
won't be interference" promised.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"AK" wrote in message
news:flFxc.1843$2i5.155@attbi_s52...


That's one of those nonsense comments that sounds good, but doesn't work.
Once "the marketplace" gets tested, amateur radio and most of the other
users of HF and MF radio reception will be out of business - never to
bounce
back once destroyed.

NEVER to bounce back? Shortwave radio is that fragile? Must not be much
keeping it going right now.



Meanwhile, BPL will be "workable" for those areas that
never had good cable access and where people were too cheap to use
satellite
or telephone alternatives. BPL isn't "unworkable" - it's the
"unreasonable"
sacrifices that must be made to allow nationwide radio spectrum disruption
for some trivial gain to a few people and a few big businesses.

If there's more people who actually want BPL more than SW radio, then maybe
they should have it. However, I seem to have less faith than you that BPL
actually works. I do have faith that people won't spend money on a system
which is unreliable.



You must be that same guy that thought he had a God given right to dump
whatever he wanted into the Nashua river when I lived along it. His
corporate garbage killed all the fish and stunk-up the river for the rest
of
the world, but using the river for his personal dumping ground was his
"right"!

You assume wrong. I'm not the same guy. I've never dumped anything toxic
in the Nashua river, even when you weren't living along it. In fact, I've
never been anywhere around the Nashua river.


Some good ol' New England Yankee took on this
"my-rights-over-everyone-else" guy by paying a cement truck to dump a full
load of concrete in the guy's drainage canal to the river. The sheriff was
called, saw what was done, heard why it was done, and went home without
issuing any citation. Too bad that a load of concrete won't stop BPL.

ak



Stopping BPL is simple. It's a political numbers game. Unfortunately,
there's more potential customers for high speed internet access than there
are SW hobbyists. I'm sure you've noticed that no Democrat is taking an
anti-BPL stance. BPL has already been approved in a couple of areas.

Or, just maybe, the politicans expect BPL to fail or succeed on it's own
merits. If it fails on it's own, then nobody gets the blame for keeping it
away from the customers.

Frank Dresser

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

Stopping BPL is simple. It's a political numbers game. Unfortunately,
there's more potential customers for high speed internet access than there
are SW hobbyists. I'm sure you've noticed that no Democrat is taking an
anti-BPL stance. BPL has already been approved in a couple of areas.

Or, just maybe, the politicans expect BPL to fail or succeed on it's own
merits. If it fails on it's own, then nobody gets the blame for keeping
it
away from the customers.

I see, Frank. You are just a might-&-money makes right sort of guy. Maybe if
the FCC will just authorize all U.S. hams to run 10KW on MF and HF
frequencies, and give us full immunity to any interference claims, amateur
radio can co-exist with BPL.

ak

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
In article flFxc.1843$2i5.155@attbi_s52, AK wrote:

Great. If BPL is unworkable, let it fail in the marketplace.

That's one of those nonsense comments that sounds good, but doesn't work.
Once "the marketplace" gets tested, amateur radio and most of the other
users of HF and MF radio reception will be out of business - never to
bounce
back once destroyed. Meanwhile, BPL will be "workable" for those areas
that
never had good cable access and where people were too cheap to use
satellite
or telephone alternatives. BPL isn't "unworkable" - it's the
"unreasonable"
sacrifices that must be made to allow nationwide radio spectrum
disruption
for some trivial gain to a few people and a few big businesses.

There's an interesting analogy to this situation playing out in the
airwaves right now. My understanding of this situation is as follows
(and may be a bit incorrect).

Some years ago, the FCC decided to allow a company which I believe was
called Fleet Telecommunications to set up some digital-packet-oriented
communication on a set of frequencies in the 800 MHz range. These
frequencies were located quite close to the 800 MHz narrow-band FM
channels allocated to publics-safety ground (trunked police and fire
systems, etc.).

There was concern expressed at the time that these digital channels
might cause interference with the existing analog channels
(intermodulation and receiver desensing, I think). The FCC agreed to
allow the allocations, on the condition that the digital operator
ensure that interference to existing allocations would not occur or
would be abated.

Subsequently (I'm hazy on the details) Fleet either went out of
business or was bought up... in either case, Nextel ended up as the
owner of these 800 MHz digital allocations. Nextel has used them as
the basis of much of its current-generation cellphone system.

The result: significant, and sometimes very severe, interference to
public-safety radio operations. There have been numerous reports of
police and firefighters being unable to use their radios successfully,
when in proximity to Nextel cellular sites. This has resulted in very
real danger to life-and-limb for police officers and firefighters.

Nextel has taken some steps to abate specific instances of this
(reducing power) when it's called to their attention, but the problem
remains.

There's a whole massive brouhaha taking place now, about "rebanding"
the 800 MHz spectrum. This will probably involve consolidating the
public-safety frequencies (requiring modification or replacement of
much equipment - Nextel has offered to pay $billions to do this but
there's concern that it'll cost twice that much), and moving at least
some of Nextel's cellular allocations upwards to a higher frequency
band. Nextel wants a big block of spectrum space in compensation,
while other companies claim that the FCC has no legal authority to
simply hand over that space to Nextel and that the law requires the
spectrum to be auctioned to the highest bidder. No matter what the
FCC decides to do, it's likely to end up being challenged in Federal
court and delayed for years.

It's a horrible mess. Some claim that the FCC *could* have acted, on
its own authority, to order Nextel to shut down operations in the
interleaved bands, because their system is apparently violating the
"we will not cause interference to other licensed operations" clauses
which were part of the original Fleet allocation grant. The FCC has
apparently asserted that it doesn't have authority to act on its own
in the absence of a formal legal complaint from a public-safety radio
organization... and no city or county or state has been willing to
file such a complaint (perhaps because the cost of pursuing it
against a deep-pockets company like Nextel would be very high indeed).

I agree that if BPL is rolled out en mass, it _is_ likely to cause
serious interference with HF operations (amateur and otherwise), and
that the momentum of "Hey, we've invested billions to field BPL, you
can't just shut us down" is likely to override the original "No, there
won't be interference" promised.

That's real interesting about Nextel. My experience with the 800 MHz bands
(LTR trunking systems) ended before digital cell phones existed, but I can
certainly believe that frequency spreading must cause some com channel
interference if you are near the transmitter site. Well, anyone who really
believes that the FCC will mitigate interference to amateur radio that is
caused by big-lobbying power companies should also believe in "temporary
taxes" and Santa Clause.

AK

In article ,
-=jd=- wrote:

You lost me there - if a public safety radio org (or anyone else for that
matter) files a formal complaint with the FCC, does the FCC bill the
complainant for any subsequent investigation and/or enforcement expenses?

The FCC's likely to look to the complaining, and responding, parties
to present evidence and research and expert testimony about the issue,
I believe. The big communications companies can afford to throw large
amounts of money at their side of the issue, churning up large amounts
of paperwork, studies, and so forth. In order to hope to win the
case, the public-safety organization would have to try to refute these
studies and reports-from-experts with their own. I suspect it'd run
into a lot of money.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"AK" wrote in message
news:_RIxc.24979$Sw.12360@attbi_s51...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

Stopping BPL is simple. It's a political numbers game. Unfortunately,
there's more potential customers for high speed internet access than
there
are SW hobbyists. I'm sure you've noticed that no Democrat is taking an
anti-BPL stance. BPL has already been approved in a couple of areas.

Or, just maybe, the politicans expect BPL to fail or succeed on it's own
merits. If it fails on it's own, then nobody gets the blame for keeping
it
away from the customers.

I see, Frank. You are just a might-&-money makes right sort of guy.

Well, as scurrilous libel goes, that's a step up from toxic waste dumper,
but you've missed the mark again. I was making a democracy arguement. The
voters who want high speed access vastly outnumber the voters who are radio
hobbyists. If BPL can actually deliver on it's big promises, radio
hobbyists will have slim clout in Washington. Being a radio hobbyist isn't
a God given right, or a natural right, or even a constitutional right.

But I think there's more to the democratic free choice arguement. What if
BPL is really a goofy idea which won't work? What's the gain for any
politician to block a popular, yet doomed approach? His opponent will grab
the the glittering promises that the BPL folk are making, and use those
promises to take votes from the "anti-BPL choice" candidate. Don't think
the voters really know the difference.

I see two possible scenerios:

1) BPL works as promised. It delivers high speed internet access to
millions of users at a competitive price. Since cable, DSL, microwave and
sattelite providers also have to compete with the BPL providers, every user
of high speed access benefits from BPL. Thousands of radio hobbyists lose.
Neither the Democrats nor Republicans choose the thousands of hobbyists over
the millions of internet users.

2) BPL flops. It can't provide adequate bandwidth for more than a small
number of users. The small number of users can't make up the costs of the
system and BPL goes the way of the personal jet pack. Politicians who might
have opposed "system choice" before it proved itself unworkable come out
smelling like a rose.


Maybe if
the FCC will just authorize all U.S. hams to run 10KW on MF and HF
frequencies, and give us full immunity to any interference claims, amateur
radio can co-exist with BPL.

ak



Hmmm. Do you think radio amateurs have enough friends in Washington to get
anything like that? Or maybe, if amateur radio interferes with a BPL system
which benefits millions, the FCC will restrict amateur radio to protect BPL?

But, if you're convinced BPL is workable and won't flop, let me suggest you
join the dark side and invest in BPL. Dump your entire networth into BPL.
Borrow more and toss that in too! Rewards go to those the bold who see the
truth, while timid fellows such as myself stand on the sidelines. Thanks to
your clear foresight, you'll soon be able to buy all the accouterments of
capitalism. Buy a diamond handle cane. Buy that Top Hat you've always
wanted. Buy a hand-made Isotta-Fraschini touring car with leopard skin
upholstery and gold plated hardware. Don't forget to buy a chauffeur!!
You'll forget about SW in no time!

http://www.prospectstreet.com/portfolio_listing.htm

Oh wait. Manassas dumped Prospect Street. Seems like they could only get
200 workable BPL connections in 6 months.

Nevermind.

Frank Dresser

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"AK" wrote in message
news:flFxc.1843$2i5.155@attbi_s52...


That's one of those nonsense comments that sounds good, but doesn't
work.
Once "the marketplace" gets tested, amateur radio and most of the other
users of HF and MF radio reception will be out of business - never to
bounce
back once destroyed.

NEVER to bounce back? Shortwave radio is that fragile? Must not be much
keeping it going right now.



Meanwhile, BPL will be "workable" for those areas that
never had good cable access and where people were too cheap to use
satellite
or telephone alternatives. BPL isn't "unworkable" - it's the
"unreasonable"
sacrifices that must be made to allow nationwide radio spectrum
disruption
for some trivial gain to a few people and a few big businesses.


I saw an analysis somewhere on the web (didn't mark the URL) that indicates
BPL will not be cheaper the dial-up or various other types of service unless
it is subsidized. Perhaps they plan to increase the electric rates to make
it up?

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE