I would like to just say that I hope these strong winds soon subside for you
in the states, I can't imagine the dreadful destruction these hurricanes can
cause as I am in the UK and we don't have them really, (only VERY small
ones) Anyway, hope it soon ends and there are no more fatalites. How grand
it would be if we could control the weather
good-luck and may god keep you safe
regards
Ben
UK

ben wrote:
I would like to just say that I hope these strong winds soon subside for you
in the states, I can't imagine the dreadful destruction these hurricanes can
cause as I am in the UK and we don't have them really, (only VERY small
ones) Anyway, hope it soon ends and there are no more fatalites. How grand
it would be if we could control the weather
good-luck and may god keep you safe
regards

Same here. Even one death is too many. I pray the survivors find comfort
and peace and the strength for the rebuilding to come.

Weather control might be a good thing, but I dread the thought of rogue
Bush type governments using it as an adjunct to economic embargoes.

Nothing like a twenty year drought imposed on your part of the world
because you won't give up your oil.



mike

dxAce wrote:

This m II fellow is sounding more and more idiotic to me with each post he
makes.

Forming a symbiotic bond, are we? I can understand your need to be with
your own kind. I look forward to many future discourses. The sans IQ
variety, of course..




mike

Diverd4777 wrote:

Quite sad to realize thounsands are homeless, scores dead or injured
and millions without Power;
Not pretty..
I forget at what speed Sheet metal starts flying around..
;
Possibly, over time - turning the " 100 year" Storm surge areas into Public
land
might forstall future disasters, or looking at what other Storm / Flood prone
areas
( Midwest & New Jersey ) have done to alleviate loss of life may help in the
future..

Very Few structures can withstand the force of a Hurricane..
snip

Hi

A problem with the idea of having the government buy land subject to storm surges is it's often the most desirable land in a community because it has a great view.

The two beach front communities I'm familiar with are Stone Harbor NJ, and Naples Fl. In either town, a beach front lot is worth several million dollars. It would put a tremendous strain on tax payers because they'd need to come up with barrels of money
while removing the most valuable land from the tax base. Most owners are not apt to sell voluntarily.

Most communities where flooding is a problem have updated building codes so new construction is less at risk.

New construction that weathered the storm well doesn't make great news coverage.

Regards,

Mark

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:51:09 -0400, "Mark S. Holden"
wrote:

Diverd4777 wrote:

Quite sad to realize thounsands are homeless, scores dead or injured
and millions without Power;
Not pretty..
I forget at what speed Sheet metal starts flying around..
;
Possibly, over time - turning the " 100 year" Storm surge areas into Public
land
might forstall future disasters, or looking at what other Storm / Flood prone
areas
( Midwest & New Jersey ) have done to alleviate loss of life may help in the
future..

Very Few structures can withstand the force of a Hurricane..
snip

Hi

A problem with the idea of having the government buy land subject to storm surges is it's often the most desirable land in a community because it has a great view.

The two beach front communities I'm familiar with are Stone Harbor NJ, and Naples Fl. In either town, a beach front lot is worth several million dollars. It would put a tremendous strain on tax payers because they'd need to come up with barrels of money
while removing the most valuable land from the tax base. Most owners are not apt to sell voluntarily.

Most communities where flooding is a problem have updated building codes so new construction is less at risk.

New construction that weathered the storm well doesn't make great news coverage.

Regards,

Mark


Mark, What's the name of the ice cream place in Stone Harbor that's
so popular. Do you know it? Always a line through the door. And hey
- Avalon is Cooler By a Mile.

Regards

Evrhrt 234152 wrote:
snip
Mark, What's the name of the ice cream place in Stone Harbor that's
so popular. Do you know it? Always a line through the door. And hey
- Avalon is Cooler By a Mile.

Regards

I forget the name of it, but if it's the one I'm thinking about, I had a $30 milkshake there last week. (Lost track of time and got back with my shake just as they were starting to write me up for overtime parking)

The off season is much nicer - they take the parking meters and "no turn on red" signs down.

The fudge shop is also worthwhile, but my favorite store is the ace hardware - though even they didn't have the screwy bolts for our redwood chairs.

The reception down there is nice too, probably because of the water. (Naples FL is great because of the water too.) I'd love to try something bigger than the 3 meter whip I have for my "portable" set up, but evergreen trees and city size lots don't make
for good antenna farms.

Regards,

Mark

Mark S. Holden wrote:

A problem with the idea of having the government buy land subject to storm
surges is it's often the most desirable land in a community because it
has a great view.

When looking at building in a place that has a "great view" you usually
have to wonder how that view came into being. In many cases the spot
has a great view only beacuse everything that normally would have been
in front of it has already fallen off and washed away. How long will it
be until your new construction follows the older stuff down the side?
Are *you* prepared to rebuild/relocate on your own, or will you claim
federal disaster relief funds?

Same with very rich bottom land. Many times, the only reason the topsoil
in a particular area is so good is because every 25-50-10 years or so a
huge flood comes along and deposits new topsoil and a lot of additional
organic matter.

Today we have people building homes in places that, even just a few
years ago, were considered unbuildable because of topography, hydrology,
and stability issues. If someone decides that they can take the risk
and build anyway, they should be certain that they are financially able
to re-build when the inetivable happens, and not rely on a public
handout to rebuild. Look at some of the beach homes on Long Island or
the Outer Banks. How many times have some of these been rebuilt after
being destroyed in a storm? Why should the public be paying to rebuild
these, time after time?

If people are living in a place where a private company will not offer
them flood insurance, maybe that should tell them something.

Here in Seattle many years ago people tried to get permits to build on
hillsides which had been determined to be unstable. The original
builders/owners signed all sorts of waivers and documents indicating
that they understood the risks and were eventually allowed to build. A
few years ago when we got heavier than usual rain for a longer than
usual period some of these hillsides slipped. All of a sudden all these
people who owned these now-useless houses decided that they needed to be
reimbursed at everyone else's expense. I'm sorry, but if you decide to
build in a known slide area, sign a waiver that you understand and take
all responsibility, and then the land later slides, you are on your own;
it's a matter between you and whatever insurance you were able to obtain
for that site.

Build where you want to (within reason), but take responsibility for
your choices. Don't rely on everyone else to rebuild the house you
decided to build in the flood plain, or on the unstable hillside, or in
the historical path of periodic storms. If an area is determined to be
too dangerous to build, and you decide you just *have* to have a little
house there, go ahead and sign the waivers and stuff and build it, but
remember that you are on your own. (When they give out the permit, they
should also hand you a big stack of "Change of Address" cards to mail
out when the address of the place changes from "Hilltop Bluffs Road" to
"Shoreline Drive".)



The two beach front communities I'm familiar with are Stone Harbor NJ, and
Naples Fl. In either town, a beach front lot is worth several million
dollars. It would put a tremendous strain on tax payers because they'd
need to come up with barrels of money while removing the most valuable
land from the tax base. Most owners are not apt to sell voluntarily.

A beach front lot is worth exactly whatever someone is willing to pay
for it. If it's unbuildable it's worth less. If it became known that
people would not be receiving public assistance to rebuild after the
next major storm came through, what would they be worth?

Let people own the land and live there; just make sure that their
liability is commensurate with the risks they are taking, and don't pawn
it off on everyone else.


--
Mike
NAR #70953 - Sr/HPR Level-1 ~ BEMRC - NAR Section #627
NO Junk Email, please! Real email to: amphoto [at] blarg [dot] net.
WANTED: Experienced Kamikaze Pilot

Mike Pearson see .sig wrote:

(When they give out the permit, they
should also hand you a big stack of "Change of Address" cards to mail
out when the address of the place changes from "Hilltop Bluffs Road" to
"Shoreline Drive".)

Or from 414 1212 Everglades View to 314 1212 Everglades View to 214 1212
Everglades to 114 1212...




mike

In article , "Mark S. Holden"
writes:


Diverd4777 wrote:

Quite sad to realize thounsands are homeless, scores dead or injured
and millions without Power;
Not pretty..
I forget at what speed Sheet metal starts flying around..
;
Possibly, over time - turning the " 100 year" Storm surge areas into Public
land
might forstall future disasters, or looking at what other Storm / Flood
prone
areas
( Midwest & New Jersey ) have done to alleviate loss of life may help in
the
future..

Very Few structures can withstand the force of a Hurricane..
snip

Hi

A problem with the idea of having the government buy land subject to storm
surges is it's often the most desirable land in a community because it has a
great view.

The two beach front communities I'm familiar with are Stone Harbor NJ, and
Naples Fl. In either town, a beach front lot is worth several million
dollars. It would put a tremendous strain on tax payers because they'd need
to come up with barrels of money

- True, some problems do exist betwenn reality and Damage free storm zones;
In some places you are not allowed to sell teh houst, but can happily livev in
it untill you pass away..
State parks sometimes do that..

while removing the most valuable land from the tax base.

True again..

Most owners are not
apt to sell voluntarily.

Most communities where flooding is a problem have updated building codes so
new construction is less at risk.

New construction that weathered the storm well doesn't make great news
coverage.

- True.. Houses that weather storms like that are pretty rare..
Don't know of anything that can withstand 145 MPH Winds , debris flying around
& a Big Storm Surge;

( Watertight, Pre stressed Concrete Pill Box ??)

Hurricane clamps, lots of reinforcing and 5 foot clearance under rebuilt
houses help some..

Saw a town in St Martins that was mostly flattened, then rebuilt by the french
Govt.

One hotel stood empty, a concrete shell; all else had been blown, / Washed
away; Containers rolled around like toys;

Sea wall crushed by wave action;

Dan

"Mark S. Holden" wrote in message
...
Diverd4777 wrote:

Quite sad to realize thounsands are homeless, scores dead or injured
and millions without Power;
Not pretty..
I forget at what speed Sheet metal starts flying around..
;
Possibly, over time - turning the " 100 year" Storm surge areas into
Public
land
might forstall future disasters, or looking at what other Storm / Flood
prone
areas
( Midwest & New Jersey ) have done to alleviate loss of life may help
in the
future..

Very Few structures can withstand the force of a Hurricane..
snip

Hi

A problem with the idea of having the government buy land subject to storm
surges is it's often the most desirable land in a community because it has a
great view.

The two beach front communities I'm familiar with are Stone Harbor NJ, and
Naples Fl. In either town, a beach front lot is worth several million
dollars. It would put a tremendous strain on tax payers because they'd need
to come up with barrels of money
while removing the most valuable land from the tax base. Most owners are
not apt to sell voluntarily.

Most communities where flooding is a problem have updated building codes
so new construction is less at risk.

New construction that weathered the storm well doesn't make great news
coverage.

Regards,

Mark

Right Mark, and as the analysis comes in, it is evident that the winds
outside the eyewall were a lot less than 140+ mph as earlier suspected. The
destruction of a mobile home park is a poor example of wind force - they
start to completely unravel at winds +75mph. A brand new subdivision of
single family homes is just across the canal (a couple hundred yards) from
one of the destroyed mobile home parks - and not one single home suffered
any damage at all. All fixed residential construction in Florida has been
150mph certified for years, and homes on waterfront must be built on
survivable concrete pilings. As the older homes are eventially replaced,
there will be less and less damage from hurricanes - except for those mobile
trailer-homes, which are fragile even when upgraded.

Connected to Sanbel Is by causeway, is Captiva Is, where the eyewall
crossed. The resort community of South Seas Plantation (visited there twice
by boat) was almost completely destroyed. There is a 20min NBC-2 video
series that surveyed the place Saturday and I hardly recognize any of the
original buildings. So it's fair to say that the winds were in excess of
140mph there, since the 150mph roofs are notably missing. But every person,
and every boat, was evacuated.

Jack