Soliloquy wrote:

starman wrote in :

Dear Mark and Starman, rather than neurose this link into infinity by
reasserting that the RS232 Standard was omitted since Yaesu had an
insidious plot to overthrow the economy by forcing people to buy the
adapter, why don't you offer evidence, in the form of URLs, to pages that
discuss the prevalence of RS232 ports on other similarly priced equipment
of the time?


Don't know why you're getting defensive.

I didn't imply a conspiracy, or that profit was a bad thing. I mentioned Lowe
made a similar decision.

If they couldn't make a profit, they'd have little incentive to make the radio.

My guess is they expected leaving the parts out of the radios for people who
didn't care about the port would do more for the bottom line than selling the
accessory for those who wanted the capability.

And Kenwood was another maker that sold the 232 interface separately
for it's radios.

I suspect that the decision by all of the radio companies to market it
as an option was mostly an atttempt to keep the initial price as low
and competitive as possible. I think the companies understood that
only a small group of enthusiasts wanted features like a 232 interface,
voice synthesizer or 500hz filter. Adding one or more to all radios
could have pushed the price beyond the competition. While profit is
certainly their motive in selling radios, I don't think they separated
the 232 adaptor solely as a way to eke out more markup.



Mark S. Holden wrote:
Soliloquy wrote:

starman wrote in
:

Why don't most cars come standard with tire chains installed?
Probably
because most people would have no need for them. The Yaesu FRG-100
Pre-
Dates the R-75 by 7 years. The Yaesu FRG-100 was introduced in
1992, the
Icom R-75 in 1999.

Although it seems like computers have been with us forever, their
common
use in terms of being interfaced, by the average Joe, with radios
is a
relatively recent phenomenon.

The Yaesu design apparently goes back 13 years. Look here for a
little
computer history. http://www.computerhope.com/history/19902000.htm
http://www.computerhope.com/win3x.htm

Notice that the release date for Windows 3.1 was also in 1992.
Whoopee,
Windows 3.1, I would guess that those computers had USB ports. No,
why
not? Ah, the evolution of the equipment only produced USB ports in
later
years.

Perhaps this is why the FRG-100, released in 1992, and no doubt
being
designed a few years before that, didn't obsess about converting
the CAT
port to Serial Port levels. I believe that the port was there more
for
the option of Remote Control operation than computer interface.

My point is that obsessions with extras does not necessarily make
for
good equipment. The Yaesu FRG-100 is a solid performer, even
without the
additional features of the Icom R-75. For that matter, is there
anyone
out there with a fully operational Palstar R-30C, in like new
condition,
that they would like to swap for my fully operational R-75, also in
like
new condition?

You can't get any more basic than the Palstar R-30C. But it is also
a
performer. Gone are all of those seductive buttons and knobs,
instead,
the money goes into the quality of the components used throughout.
And
most frightening, I don't even know if it has Computer Control
options,
"Oh the Humanity"!

http://www.palstar.com/r30.php

Soliloquy

matt weber wrote:

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:38:39 -0500, starman
wrote:



Soliloquy wrote:

Yes, but why didn't Yaesu implement a proper RS-232 interface
like
most table-top receivers have done in recent years? I guess only
they
can answer that question.

The RS-232 standard was an "established" standard when the FRG-100
was brought
out, and personal computers were popular long before Windows was
introduced.

Odds are they thought they could make more of a profit by selling the
RS-232
adapter as an accessory. Lowe did the same thing.

HJS,
..
The process is called Cost Benefit Analysis (CBA).
..
At the time that these Receivers were made the number
of Buyers that would have been motivated to buy a specific
Receiver just because it had this specific feature 'built-in'
was small. The reduced Cost of the Receiver (Lower Price
Point) by not including this feature and offering it as an
Option for the few that would want it; against the total
number of sales an overall profitability of the product.
..
At least back then; Market Analysis must of identified that
an RS-232 Adapter/Interface was not a Selling Feature that
would motivate most sellers to "Buy" a specific Receiver.
Yes some would... but most would not.
..
Look at a current sample of new Table Top Receivers that
have been offered for sale within the last five years.
How many have a built-in Computer-Interface; and how many
have not. In todays market it may be a Selling Point for
many buyers; and the cost of having one built-in may now
add little to the overall cost of the Receiver at it's
current Price Point.
..
Now consider a sample of new 'portable' AM/FM Shortwave Radios
that have been offered for sale within the last five years.
How many have a built-in Computer-Interface; and how many more
have not. In todays market it still is NOT a Selling Point
for most 'portable' AM/FM Shortwave Radio "Buyers"; and the
cost of having one built-in does Add-to-the-Overall-Cost of
the 'portable' AM/FM Shortwave and drives up it's current
Price Point.
..
At any given time in a Market there is a Balance between:
- The Manufacturing Cost of the Product
+ The Price Point of the Product within the Market
= The Value of the Product as 'perceived' by the Customer
..
jm2cw ~ RHF

I suppose CBA is another way of saying manufacturers construct and
price products in accorance with consumers demands and the actions of
their competitors.

"Mark S. Holden" wrote in
:

I like the Yaesu FRG-100, or at least the possibility of a selection of
equipment (Palstar etc.). It seems that in the modern world, people are
selecting fewer items, since they read this or that about a specific brand
of equipment, and the focusing of sales is going to result in a limited
variety of designs available.

By the thread discussing the omission of the RS232 Jack on the FRG-100,
without demonstrating that other radios, in similar price categories,
designed and marketed in a similar era, were also lacking this Jack, seemed
to impugn the Yaesu itself. (As I originally said, Yaesu has dropped the
radio from their web page, it has been discontinued, I am sure that the
Icom R-75 has taken its place in terms of Table Top Radios).

People have a dwindling interest in SWL. After all you can get anything you
want off of the internet and cable (or Satellite). But can you really? The
U.S. Government has ordered an Iranian channel to be deleted from a
satellite providing coverage to the U.S., citing "Intellectual Terrorism".
So much for the convenience of the "digital age", the satellites are beyond
our control, someone else controls the switches.

http://www.counterpunch.org/moses12212004.html
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/articl...parentid=18855

Shortwave offers the ability to directly glean information from a variety
of sources, thereby giving you the possibility of making an "educated
decision". I would truly mourn its passing, as I rue the passing of the
FRG-100 as a current offering.

Soliloquy




Don't know why you're getting defensive.

I didn't imply a conspiracy, or that profit was a bad thing. I
mentioned Lowe made a similar decision.

If they couldn't make a profit, they'd have little incentive to make
the radio.

My guess is they expected leaving the parts out of the radios for
people who didn't care about the port would do more for the bottom
line than selling the accessory for those who wanted the capability.

"Mark S. Holden" wrote:

The RS-232 standard was an "established" standard when the FRG-100
was brought out, and personal computers were popular long before
Windows was introduced.

Odds are they thought they could make more of a profit by selling the
RS-232 adapter as an accessory. Lowe did the same thing.

That makes the most business sense. I didn't think there was any valid
technical reason.

starman wrote in :

Dear Mark and Starman, rather than neurose this link into infinity by
reasserting that the RS232 Standard was omitted since Yaesu had an
insidious plot to overthrow the economy by forcing people to buy the
adapter, why don't you offer evidence, in the form of URLs, to pages that
discuss the prevalence of RS232 ports on other similarly priced equipment
of the time?

Visit he http://www.dxing.com/rx/r71a.htm for information on the Icom
R-71 and R-72.

Here's the back of the Icom R-71

http://www.universal-radio.com/catal...vr/r71diar.jpg

Here's the back of the Icom R-72

http://www.universal-radio.com/catal...r/r72rear.html

Apparently their RS232 Jacks fell of before these photos were taken.

Notice they offer an "OPTIONAL" CT-17 CI-V Level converter. Here we go
again, the conspiracy theories will abound, this underhanded manufacturer
must have been trying to destroy the US economy by requiring their
customers to actually buy accessories rather than incorporate them into
the radio, "Oh the Humanity".

Gee, the Drake R8 and the R8A had the RS232 jacks, but they retailed for
$400 more. Isn't that special. You pay more and you get more, what a
concept.

Does the Lowe 150 have an RS232 Jack, I don't think so!

Strange, I thought that this was an elaborate plan by Yaesu?

The proof is in the pudding. Oh, and by the by, for the correct phrase,
please visit he http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020903.html

So you can see, the presence of RS232 Jacks, on equipment of that era,
was limited to units retailing for nearly $1000. But why let facts get in
the way of a needless gripe?

You made our point. Manufacturers like to keep the price down by
eliminating certain features like a 232 interface, *perhaps* with the
intention of selling it as an accessory. Drake did the same with the R8
and it's VHF module.

"Mark S. Holden" wrote:

My guess is they expected leaving the parts out of the radios for people who
didn't care about the port would do more for the bottom line than selling the
accessory for those who wanted the capability.

It also should be noted that Yaesu's CAT adapter (or *one* of them if
they did multiple designs) was more than a level converter -- it had
optical isolation to avoid any ugliness with ground loops or the like.

--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940